The Vulcan mind meld. Star Trek Into Darkness Question

[Gingerbread Demon]

In Into Darkness Spock mind melds with a dying Christopher Pike. Would Pike have to have given consent during the mind meld, and if so can one do that even if they are dying and not able to communicate verbally?

The scene is good but that bit just bugs me.

 

[Tosk]

Since when does Spock only do the mind meld with consenting parties?

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Since when does Spock only do the mind meld with consenting parties?

That is kind of why I asked. I brought up the Pike scene in another thread and someone said he might have given consent, but then I wondered because he was dying and probably couldn't communicate due to well in the stages of dying... I thought Spock had just violated Pike by doing what he did.

 

[Nerys Myk]

That is kind of why I asked. I brought up the Pike scene in another thread and someone said he might have given consent, but then I wondered because he was dying and probably couldn't communicate due to well in the stages of dying... I thought Spock had just violated Pike by doing what he did.

Dr. Van Gelder, consent (Dagger of the Mind)
Yang Woman, no consent (Omega Glory)
Valaris, no consent (TUC)
Horta,no consent. (Devil In the Dark)
McCoy, no consent (Return of the Archons)
Kelinda, no consent (By Any Other Name)
Guard, no consent (Taste of Armageddon)
Nomad, no consent (The Changeling)
McCoy, no consent (Mirror, Mirror)*
Kirk, Scott, McCoy,consent (Spectre of the Gun)
Kirk, no consent, (Paradise Syndrome)
Kirk, no consent ( Requiem for Methuselah)
Kirk, consent (Turnabout Intruder)
V'Ger, no consent. (TMP)
McCoy, no consent (TWOK)
George and Gracie, no consent (TVH)

I think Spock has a problem.

*Mirror Spock

 

[soornge]

consemt doesnt have to be given for a mind meld but its referred to as rape without it in one of the tos episodes i think : but of course mccoy is knocked out in twok

 

[T'Bonz]

That troubled me. The worse one though was in STVI.

It (and this) were "mind rape" as far as I was concerned.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

That troubled me. The worse one though was in STVI.

It (and this) were "mind rape" as far as I was concerned.

That's the view I took..

Just on that though if you had done it to a dying person what would you experience as they died? Would Spock have seen "the other side?"

 

[urbandefault]

That's the view I took..

Just on that though if you had done it to a dying person what would you experience as they died? Would Spock have seen "the other side?"

Spock described what it was like:
"As Admiral Pike was dying, I joined with his consciousness and experienced what he felt at the moment of his passing. Anger. Confusion. Loneliness. Fear. I had experienced those feelings before, multiplied exponentially on the day my planet was destroyed. Such a feeling is something I choose never to experience again."

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Spock described what it was like:
"As Admiral Pike was dying, I joined with his consciousness and experienced what he felt at the moment of his passing. Anger. Confusion. Loneliness. Fear. I had experienced those feelings before, multiplied exponentially on the day my planet was destroyed. Such a feeling is something I choose never to experience again."

I know that but what would the melder experience when his mind crosses over to the other side? If such a thing exists?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Maybe there's a no hitchhikers rule?

 

[F. King Daniel]

I like to think he tried to give Pike some comfort in his last moments.

I thought the scene was very good at making Spock appear vulnerable. He should know better, but he's young and afraid and messed up and wants to know what death's like. He says on the ride to Kronos he felt his people die when Vulcan was destroyed (but took it better than Spock Prime in "Immunity Syndrome") and I guess felt he needed a closer look at what his mother and people experienced.

 

[Timo]

Has the issue of consent ever actually arisen? The only time anybody asked was in "Dagger of the Mind", and there Spock asked "Do you understand that this might hurt/damage?", not "Do you allow me to proceed?". Sarek in ST3 just said "Gimme".

Why should there be consent involved? It's just the Vulcan equivalent of intimate conversation. The subject of the chat is by mutual agreement, it seems: one side can try and refuse to discuss a given item. As is often the case in chats, though, this may not work too well.

I know there are people willing to cry "RAPE!" when subjected to an uncomfortable discussion. Might I recommend trying out a real rape in comparison?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kor]

I like to think he tried to give Pike some comfort in his last moments.

I thought the same thing as well, even though it isn't stated specifically. He was trying to share some of that Vulcan serenity and peace with his long-time commander and comrade.

Kor

 

[Timo]

Aren't Vulcans supposed to be the opposite of serenity and peace inside, though? Perhaps Spock was sharing unvoiced sentiments of satisfactorily violent revenge...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Franklin]

I like to think he tried to give Pike some comfort in his last moments.

I thought the scene was very good at making Spock appear vulnerable. He should know better, but he's young and afraid and messed up and wants to know what death's like. He says on the ride to Kronos he felt his people die when Vulcan was destroyed (but took it better than Spock Prime in "Immunity Syndrome") and I guess felt he needed a closer look at what his mother and people experienced.

Spock is also innately curious. This might be a flip way to say it, but this moment may have been too good for him to pass up. It could be called voyeuristic to say the least.

The only thing I can figure about it that prevents it from being a gross invasion of Pike's privacy is Pike probably knew of the Vulcan mind meld and Spock may have done it to allow Pike to have any last words, so to speak. To convey to Spock things he couldn't speak any more. Maybe that did offer Pike some relief.

 

[Jedman67]

That troubled me. The worse one though was in STVI.

It (and this) were "mind rape" as far as I was concerned.

IIRC, the novel described the scene as Spock initiating the meld (which I've never seen as described as rape, btw) but allowing Valeris to share the information with him rather than him rooting through her mind and grabbing it.

 

[DonIago]

^Yep, though granted it doesn't quite play that way in the film.

 

[The Wormhole]

Has the issue of consent ever actually arisen? The only time anybody asked was in "Dagger of the Mind", and there Spock asked "Do you understand that this might hurt/damage?", not "Do you allow me to proceed?". Sarek in ST3 just said "Gimme".

Why should there be consent involved? It's just the Vulcan equivalent of intimate conversation. The subject of the chat is by mutual agreement, it seems: one side can try and refuse to discuss a given item. As is often the case in chats, though, this may not work too well.

I know there are people willing to cry "RAPE!" when subjected to an uncomfortable discussion. Might I recommend trying out a real rape in comparison?

Timo Saloniemi

I know the novels certainly make it an issue that a mind-meld without consent is an unspeakable crime on Vulcan and is considered equivalent to rape, but now that you bring it up, no, I'm not sure it the issue ever has been brought up in the show. The closest was when Enterprise did the mind meld disease as a sort of HIV analogy.

 

[M'Sharak]

I know there are people willing to cry "RAPE!" when subjected to an uncomfortable discussion. Might I recommend trying out a real rape in comparison?

I'm not a fan of the term "mind rape," personally, and certainly not of its too-casual use. While a meld performed without the consent of one of the parties is unquestionably invasive, it's not automatically an assault in the same sense as the forced meld upon Valeris was in TUC.

In any case, I don't think the question I've bolded above is really helpful here. "Trying out a real" assault isn't something anyone should be recommending.

 

[T'Bonz]

IIRC, the novel described the scene as Spock initiating the meld (which I've never seen as described as rape, btw) but allowing Valeris to share the information with him rather than him rooting through her mind and grabbing it.

I remember. I was pissed when I read that in the book, because I had been curious to see how they would depict it. They basically turned the mind rape into a consensual act which was total bullshit. Had I been online in the days and/or known the author, I'd have spoken my mind on the matter as it was that disturbing to me, the trivialization of what happened.

Edit: Timo:

I know there are people willing to cry "RAPE!" when subjected to an uncomfortable discussion. Might I recommend trying out a real rape in comparison?

You're fucking kidding, right? Are you that clueless as to sexual assault as to not recognize one, even a fictional one? Spock went INTO Valeris' mind WITHOUT her consent and violated her. That's a mind rape.

But since you need validation, I'm a sexual assault survivor. Is that sufficient or does one need to have been a victim of stranger rape in a dark alley to be qualified to speak about rape?

Some people....