The Time Of The Doctor (Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!)

[Mr Awe]

How are they good points? Many of them are pointless questions that have nothing to do with the story. How did the Papal Mainframe shield the planet?

Without going point by point, it *was* hokey how the Papal Mainframe could hold back the combined evil forces of the universre for centuries.

becuase 1) at first they were afraid of what was down there before they knew it was the Timelords

2) After they found out all the Doctor had to do to bring them back was say his name so they were kind of in a stalemate.

What was shown was that they kept trying for centuries.

Mr Awe

 

[Professor Zoom]

The line about the previous encounters with the Silence/Silents being a rogue sect was all the explanation that was needed in the context of this story. Why do people want everything spelled out? Leaving it ambiguous leaves room for (1) us to use our imaginations to fill in the blanks, and (2) future stories that haven't been written yet to expand upon it.

It was a horrible hand wave. It sorta didn't explain why the Silents needed to take over the entire Earth.

I'm really sick of hearing people bitch about this episode, which was GREAT and immensely satisfying, and whose plot hole problems are certainly no greater than the vast majority of Who stories.

I guess you could stop reading the internet, because, I'm sorry, this episode was EXTREMELY disappointing. And not satisfying for me at all. It was a lot of telling. Not a lot of showing. And the Doctor was... not The Doctor in this story. He was a passive character. In his own finale. He didn't try and find any solution other than just stay put and keep doing the same thing for 900 years. He gave up. That's not the Doctor.

Despite the fact that this was never written as his last regeneration prior to this episode, with at least 4 different episodes contradicting that fact, what I want to know is this: why did the town/planet not evolve? He is there anywhere from 600-900 years. Think about the Earth in the year 1400 versus now. Why did they seem to be at a technological stand still? I would think being in a near constant state of attack would accelerate their desire to build better defenses, not retard it.

Well, that wasn't a problem for me. They aren't a country with a lot of resources, but a small town under near constant attack. And then smartest guy in the town is spending his time fixing toys. So... yeah... they were fucked.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

It was a horrible hand wave. It sorta didn't explain why the Silents needed to take over the entire Earth.

And why would that need any more explanation than it had already gotten long before this? They were trying to create a fixed point in time, which is not an easy thing to do and requires all kinds of convoluted maneuverings to which we are not privy and probably could never understand. Basically, it's a "wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey" thing and that's all we need to know. That none of this was rehashed here is a GOOD thing, because that story was already done and this was a new one.

Handwaving is a fundamental part of storytelling in Doctor Who. It has been since the beginning. There have been times when nearly every episode began with a handwave to dispel the last scene of the previous one. This flippant fickleness is part of the fun and the endearing charm of the show. The writing is very aware of itself, its conceits and its conventions. If this bothers you...I guess you could stop watching the show, because, I'm sorry, you will continue to be extremely disappointed by it.

I guess you could stop reading the internet, because, I'm sorry, this episode was EXTREMELY disappointing. And not satisfying for me at all. It was a lot of telling. Not a lot of showing. And the Doctor was... not The Doctor in this story. He was a passive character. In his own finale. He didn't try and find any solution other than just stay put and keep doing the same thing for 900 years. He gave up. That's not the Doctor.

He didn't give up. He decided to devote the rest of his last remaining life to protect a town of innocents from being obliterated by a situation he himself unwittingly created in the first place. (And by extension, the rest of the universe, which surely would be devastated should the Time War begin anew.) It's called character development. The Doctor had spent all his lives running, tricking his way out of predicaments, and finally stopped and accepted this responsibility when faced with it. He was absolutely the Doctor, the "good man."

I think what needed to be shown was, and what needed to be told was. Let's remember that they only had one hour to do this story in. Can't show or tell everything, and again, why would you want them to anyway?

...the fact that this was never written as his last regeneration prior to this episode, with at least 4 different episodes contradicting that fact...

People were speculating this was actually his last life for some time before this episode. In the gap between the 50th anniversary and it, I did a marathon of all Matt Smith's episodes to see if anything precluded this interpretation. Nothing did. To my recollection, for every occasion when the idea of regeneration was raised, there is a fairly straightforward reason why it is not a contradiction:

"The Impossible Astronaut" - it wasn't really the Doctor, it was the Tesselecta putting on a show

"Let's Kill Hitler" - "regeneration disabled" (this phrase accurately describes the condition of having exhausted one's regenerations)

"The Angels Take Manhattan" - the small amount of energy he used to heal River's wrist can be presumed to be left over from when River gave the remainder of her own regeneration energy to heal him in "Let's Kill Hitler"; it may very well have been all that was left and if there was any more he could easily have used that up somewhere along the line at Trenzalore or elsewhere

"Nightmare In Silver" - it's a bluff

Those are the only ones I remember; are there any more?

Oh, and after refreshing my memory I found the answer to my own pedantic complaint about the holographic clothes: the "hologram shells" had "heat loss filters." Simple enough.

 

[Professor Zoom]

It was a horrible hand wave. It sorta didn't explain why the Silents needed to take over the entire Earth.

And why would that need any more explanation than it had already gotten long before this?

Because it was incredibly unsatisfactory. It didn't really explain their plan. If there plan was to kill the Doctor before he got to Trenzalore, why did they need to take over the Earth?

They were trying to create a fixed point in time, which is not an easy thing to do and requires all kinds of convoluted maneuverings to which we are not privy and probably could never understand.

Ok. Sure.

Basically, it's a "wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey" thing and that's all we need to know.

BS. Timey-wimey wasn't meant, nor should be, an excuse for poor story telling.

That none of this was rehashed here is a GOOD thing, because that story was already done and this was a new one.

You can't have it both ways. You said upthread that it was left vague so they could tell future stories, now, you're saying that the story was done.

And the story WASN'T done. We didn't know who blew up the Tardis, or why. The ending of that story was that one line.

Handwaving is a fundamental part of storytelling in Doctor Who.

No. No, it's not.

It has been since the beginning. There have been times when nearly every episode began with a handwave to dispel the last scene of the previous one. This flippant fickleness is part of the fun and the endearing charm of the show. The writing is very aware of itself, its conceits and its conventions. If this bothers you...I guess you could stop watching the show, because, I'm sorry, you will continue to be extremely disappointed by it.

Then explain why I have enjoyed Doctor Who for years and years? Oh, that's because for the most part they don't rely on handwaving. They actually tell a story dramatically.

I guess you could stop reading the internet, because, I'm sorry, this episode was EXTREMELY disappointing. And not satisfying for me at all. It was a lot of telling. Not a lot of showing. And the Doctor was... not The Doctor in this story. He was a passive character. In his own finale. He didn't try and find any solution other than just stay put and keep doing the same thing for 900 years. He gave up. That's not the Doctor.

He didn't give up. He decided to devote the rest of his last remaining life to protect a town of innocents from being obliterated by a situation he himself unwittingly created in the first place.

He gave up because he didn't try and find a solution to the problem. By just staying there and doing nothing, the town was under constant attack for 900 years... that sounds HORRIBLE. Why would the Doctor want those people to live like that? Now, if we saw him in the story trying to find other solutions, rather than JUST defending the city, that would be the Doctor I know.

(And by extension, the rest of the universe, which surely would be devastated should the Time War begin anew.) It's called character development.

Please lecture me some more... tell me of this character... development...

The Doctor had spent all his lives running, tricking his way out of predicaments, and finally stopped and accepted this responsibility when faced with it. He was absolutely the Doctor, the "good man."

I'm sorry, "tricking" his way out of predicaments? He didn't trick his way out... he fucking solved problems. He maybe a trickster character, but he didn't trick his way out of predicaments. He helped people, he found a way to save lives. He found a way when no one else could. You know, like in the Day of The Doctor.

I think what needed to be shown was, and what needed to be told was. Let's remember that they only had one hour to do this story in. Can't show or tell everything, and again, why would you want them to anyway?

So, they had an hour... it's called selective editing. We didn't need that moment with the Angels, for example. Not EVERYTHING needed to be thrown in like a stew.

And, you'll have to link where I said I wanted everything shown or told. I wanted satisfying answers, I wanted a satisfying story. I got a lot of handwaving and voice over.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Ok, I wasn't really attempting to lecture you, and shouldn't have given in to the temptation to try to snarkily turn your words around on you. It seems we have rather different opinions about what makes for a satisfying DW adventure. I do not care what the details of the Kovarian sect's plan(s) were, and this remaining shrouded in a bit of mystery is no annoyance. For me knowing their motivation is sufficient.

You can't have it both ways. You said upthread that it was left vague so they could tell future stories, now, you're saying that the story was done.

What I said was that it being left vague without all the blanks filled in is not a negative thing, because it allows each of us to use our imaginations to fill them in to whatever degree we so desire AND at the same time leaves open possibilities for future stories.

We didn't know who blew up the Tardis, or why.

We now know generally who (the Kovarian sect) and essentially why (to try to stop the Doctor reaching Trenzalore). Anything more might be interesting, or it might not, but it isn't necessary or directly relevant to this story. The broad strokes are there, it's only details that are missing.

They actually tell a story dramatically.

I found "Time Of The Doctor" to be a very dramatically satisfying ending for Matt Smith. You're not wrong for feeling otherwise, but the point is, not everyone was disappointed with it or thought its storytelling was poor.

By just staying there and doing nothing, the town was under constant attack for 900 years... that sounds HORRIBLE. Why would the Doctor want those people to live like that? Now, if we saw him in the story trying to find other solutions, rather than JUST defending the city, that would be the Doctor I know.

What other options were open to him? If he answered the Time Lords, the planet would burn. If he left, the planet would burn. He didn't have the TARDIS. Tasha and the Church helped him as much as they could for as long as they could, but that wasn't enough to save him from his eventual fate. What exactly could he do besides what he did? He was making the best of an impossible situation in true Doctor style.

And you don't think that in the hundreds of years he was there, he tried to think of other solutions? I take it as a given that he had tried, and that there weren't any. I think the whole point of the story was to show how the 11th Doctor came to his end (and ultimately introduce us to the 12th) and that is why a lot of story time was not devoted to delaying this with scenes of the Doctor trying a bunch of things and them not working. I don't need to be shown that, I can imagine it. The upshot is he fought until didn't have any clever plans or tricks or strength left in him, and was able to accept it because he was saving lives, which is not the same as "giving up."

I'm sure there will be plenty of other media that expounds upon what happened in the centuries he spent on Trenzalore, but the episode (rightly IMO) is really only focused on the beginning and the end of it.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

They explained the Kovarian Sect's plan in The Impossible Astronaut already.
They needed a space suit for River to kill the Doctor with. They don't make stuff themselves.
For some reason they rather whisper into mankind's ear for millennia to direct their technological development to the point where they got one.
Why they do it this way? They are aliens, who knows, they don't think like hhumans.
The only bit missing was their motivation, which was explained here.
Granted exposition is always less satisfying than showing that stuff.
But I assume getting the actress back for a 5 second scene showing her falling out with Tasha might have been to expensive...

 

[davejames]

While I do like the idea of the Doctor sticking around for hundreds of years to defend a planet, I have to agree that it DOES seem highly unlikely that he wouldn't have found some other better or simpler solution in all that time. Especially after all the other seemingly impossible situations we've seen the Doctor wiggle himself out of (like, say, getting locked in an inescapable Pandorica, or avoiding his fixed-in-time death, or preventing the time-locked destruction of Gallifrey).

He may not have had access to his TARDIS, but with all the other aliens beaming up and down from the planet he surely could have used one of their ships, or found some way to seal the crack, or done... something.

 

[DWF]

It was vastly disappointing and it overturned events in The Name Of The Doctor and yet again it was Clara who really saved the day in the end. And I hope that once the Doctor leaves the planet that the Daleks don't destroy it out of spite.

 

[Photoman15]

Why would he want to seal the crack. First, it was the only thing keeping the bad guys at bay. Second, it was a passage to Gallifrey and (eventually, probably) their way back, something the Doctor does want, but not under these conditions.

 

[Photoman15]

It was vastly disappointing and it overturned events in The Name Of The Doctor and yet again it was Clara who really saved the day in the end. And I hope that once the Doctor leaves the planet that the Daleks don't destroy it out of spite.

I don't know if you got an edited version, but the one I saw, the Doctor destroyed all the Daleks in orbit around Trenzalore

 

[davejames]

Why would he want to seal the crack. First, it was the only thing keeping the bad guys at bay. Second, it was a passage to Gallifrey and (eventually, probably) their way back, something the Doctor does want, but not under these conditions.

Well wasn't the only reason the bad guys came to Trenzalore is because they got called there by the crack in time? And wanted to destroy the Time Lords the second they emerged to prevent another Time War?

Seems logical that if you were able to seal the crack (or simply even relocate it), the threat would be gone and the alien armies would have no reason to stick around anymore.

 

[RoJoHen]

Well wasn't the only reason the bad guys came to Trenzalore is because they got called there by the crack in time? And wanted to destroy the Time Lords the second they emerged to prevent another Time War?

Seems logical that if you were able to seal the crack (or simply even relocate it), the threat would be gone and the alien armies would have no reason to stick around anymore.

Well, until this point it was assumed that the Time Lords were completely destroyed. Even by sealing the crack, they would still exist on the other side. There's always the chance they could break through somehow, possibly somewhere else.

 

[Tom]

It was vastly disappointing and it overturned events in The Name Of The Doctor and yet again it was Clara who really saved the day in the end. And I hope that once the Doctor leaves the planet that the Daleks don't destroy it out of spite.

I don't know if you got an edited version, but the one I saw, the Doctor destroyed all the Daleks in orbit around Trenzalore

All we see is him blow up is one ship, a couple attack craft, and the Daleks on the ground. How could he have blown up the other Dalek mother ships when we see him focus the energy into one beam? How is that going to hit Dalek ships that are not orbiting over that particular spot? The whole thing makes no sense, there are other Dalek ships and/or more on the way.

So maybe the Daleks see the crack is not there anymore, they would still blowup the planet in fear of the crack returning, they are Daleks after all!

Also, if the Timelords could seal the crack, or even move it like they did in space to give the Doctor his new cycle. Why could they have not have sealed the crack earlier to instead of having the Doctor stay there for centuries?? Maybe because the Daleks would still blow the planet up in fear of it returning?.. Well aren't they going to do that now anyways that the Doctor has left the planet?

Also, when the Doctor did get his Tardis after 300 years, Why not just resettle population somewhere else? If he wanted to save lives he had the ability to get them all out of harms way and didn't. Why not?

Makes no sense, just some sloppy writing.

 

[Photoman15]

Sounds more like sloppy viewing(from many).

 

[Tom]

Sounds more like sloppy viewing(from many).

Can you explain those plot holes then?

 

[Professor Zoom]

What other options were open to him?

Isn't that rather the point of the Doctor? To FIND the options that we, mere mortals, couldn't see? Couldn't create?

Isn't that rather the point of any hero in a dramatic story? To do something in a situation that seems completely hopeless?

We just saw that in Day of the Doctor. Three Doctors thought the situation was hopeless, they had no other option other than destroying Gallifrey, YET, they figured something out?

And, personally, it would have been a great story to see the Doctor try and find a way out, where everyone lives, but keeps failing and failing. Thereby learning: I'm fucked. I'm gonna die here. This is really my last battle.

But, what we got was, "Oh, this is Trenzalore? Ah, well. Alright, I'll just fix toys and keep killing other aliens until I die."

That's not the Doctor.

And you don't think that in the hundreds of years he was there, he tried to think of other solutions? I take it as a given that he had tried, and that there weren't any.

It would have been good to see something. Or, in the device of this episode, hear about it in a voice over.

I'm sure there will be plenty of other media that expounds upon what happened in the centuries he spent on Trenzalore, but the episode (rightly IMO) is really only focused on the beginning and the end of it.

I don't follow the other media, I'm not interested in the other media. I like my stories to have beginnings, ends and MIDDLES.

They explained the Kovarian Sect's plan in The Impossible Astronaut already.
They needed a space suit for River to kill the Doctor with.

A space faring race had to manipulate all of man kind to get a spacesuit? Seriously? A space faring race couldn't just, you know, grab one off the rack?

It makes a great image coming out of the lake. It truly does. However, if it ONLY has to be A spacesuit, then, why not something from their own technology? If it has to be an Apollo spacesuit, WHY?

Wibbly wobbly, they are Aliens, we can't understand their thinking, are poor excuses.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Sounds more like sloppy viewing(from many).

Can you explain those plot holes then?

Like the fact that the Daleks were massing forces 600 years before he regenerated not right before he regenerated.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

A space faring race had to manipulate all of man kind to get a spacesuit? Seriously? A space faring race couldn't just, you know, grab one off the rack?

It makes a great image coming out of the lake. It truly does. However, if it ONLY has to be A spacesuit, then, why not something from their own technology? If it has to be an Apollo spacesuit, WHY?

Wibbly wobbly, they are Aliens, we can't understand their thinking, are poor excuses.

So, what you wanted was a retcon then, where that story didn't happen or conradict Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon?
The suit wasn't entirely human tech, it consisted of scavenged tech of several alien civilizations as well.
Why they couldn't bring one from the future, I cannot tell you.
It might also not have been the last we've seen from them.
The Kovarian Silence broke away originally from the Papal Mainframe because of the Trenzalore situation, but they were probably the black sheep in the order anyway and started their own conquering schemes and might even had plans to extend their occupation way into the far future to turn their sect into the dominant force in the galaxy while they were at it anyway....

 

[Professor Zoom]

A space faring race had to manipulate all of man kind to get a spacesuit? Seriously? A space faring race couldn't just, you know, grab one off the rack?

It makes a great image coming out of the lake. It truly does. However, if it ONLY has to be A spacesuit, then, why not something from their own technology? If it has to be an Apollo spacesuit, WHY?

Wibbly wobbly, they are Aliens, we can't understand their thinking, are poor excuses.

So, what you wanted was a retcon then, where that story didn't happen or conradict Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon?

Where did you get that from my post? What I want is a satisfying explanation to the story.

The suit wasn't entirely human tech, it consisted of scavenged tech of several alien civilizations as well.

If that's the case--which I don't remember--why does a space traveling, time traveling species need to scavenge anything?

Why they couldn't bring one from the future, I cannot tell you.

Which is my point. You can't. Because the ending we got doesn't really address the story we saw. Moffat had a great and fantastic startling image, but then when it comes to address why that image has to be that image... he's got nothing. Imagine if the image and the explanation worked together. It would've been fantastic.

It might also not have been the last we've seen from them.

But, it's the last we were seeing of 11. And that was a big part of an ongoing arc of this Doctor. While we might see the Silence again, I suspect they aren't going to address this story anymore.

The Kovarian Silence broke away originally from the Papal Mainframe because of the Trenzalore situation, but they were probably the black sheep in the order anyway and started their own conquering schemes and might even had plans to extend their occupation way into the far future to turn their sect into the dominant force in the galaxy while they were at it anyway....

Probably, maybe, why not just end it with wobbly wobbly while you are at it...

 

[DWF]

The Silence turned out to be very stupid villains, they destroyed the TARDIS causing the time cracks in the first place. Then they somehow go back in time and take control of earth sometime in the past. And it was one of the cracks on Trenzalore that attracked them and the church to the planet in first place. In the end they created a paradox that the problems in the first place and failed both times.

It was odd for Handles to translate a Gallifreyan signal that the TARDIS should've been able to translate being of Gallifreyan origin itself. And since the Doctor died on Trenzalore in the first the signal should've still been there in The Name Of The Doctor. I thought it was odd that the Doctor didn't know he was at Trenzalore at the start of the ep.

And yes the Doctor had some 900 years to come up a better solution and with his TARDIS he couldn't come up with a better plan. And who set up the truth field?