The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoilers)

[Satyrquaze]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

^Except Riker was transported up to his ship and a copy appeared on the planet at the same time, they were in effect created at the exact same time (course, this raises the question of where the matter to create the extra Riker came from).

Why wasn't a copy sent up to the ship, and the original stayed on the planet?

This. We're assuming that the copy is on the planet because we have been with this "Riker" for a few years. We want OUR Riker to be the real Riker. But can we say for certain he was?

Nah, My true assumption is what any transporter is designed to do is to break down matter into subatomic particles in one place and then create an exact duplicate of that matter in another.

So, every person who has used a transporter and been killed and cloned at least once in their life. The real person vs. copy person argument is pretty immaterial. The "real" Riker was killed before we ever met him. We've only ever known copies.

My point and what I essentially originally said was that The Angiers who started the transportation trick was NOT the Angiers who ended the trick. The elder Angiers was in the box drowning at the time.

 

[Bisz]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

To me it always seemed fairly straight forward that:

The "original" is the one that remains in the machine, and hence drowns when he drops into the tank. A copy appears 100m away.

Then each night the "original", who was last nights copy, drowns and a new copy is created.

This means that the original "original", the character we see for the first half of the movie, dies the first time he performs then trick. Then we see a string of one day old copies dying while a new copy is made, just to die the next night.

I may have misunderstood the line, but to me it seemed like Angier knew this, and thats what was so hard, standing on that platform each knight knowing he was going to die.

 

[Satyrquaze]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

^Exactly, since we never see the trick ever performed any other way than the "original" Angiers drowning under the stage, and the copy being the 'Prestige' in the balcony. I think Angiers has deluded himself into thinking he has a 50/50 shot with the trick and the newly created copy of Angiers is elated each time he is miraculously transported to the other side of the theater.

Yet, he was being killed each time. The audience simply could not see the trapdoor fall admist the lightshow.

 

[Anwar]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

Too murderous? The guy tied a dangerous knot and killed his wife. He wanted revenge. Whether it was one of the Borden's fault or not is irrelevant. In Angier's eyes, Borden did it and he wanted him humiliated and dead.

Yeah, but as it went on he even admitted (accidentally) that his motivation was now just upstaging Borden and he didn't care about his wife's death anymore.

I mean heck, his wife should've still had the tied knot on her wrists when they pulled her out of the tank. Angier and Cutter should've been able to see what type of knot it was for themselves!

 

[TeknoNurd]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

^Exactly, since we never see the trick ever performed any other way than the "original" Angiers drowning under the stage, and the copy being the 'Prestige' in the balcony. I think Angiers has deluded himself into thinking he has a 50/50 shot with the trick and the newly created copy of Angiers is elated each time he is miraculously transported to the other side of the theater.

Yet, he was being killed each time. The audience simply could not see the trapdoor fall admist the lightshow.

I disagree on this rationalization.

After Angier's wife drowned, to comfort him Cain told him that a sailor had told him that "drowning was very gentle, like falling asleep in mothers arms." Each night he knew he was going to drown, but believed that it would be peaceful. Of course, we saw how peaceful it was when one of the Twins tried to rescue him. But, the living Angiers never saw this moment.

You could see the realization in Angier's eyes when Cain later reveals the truth, that drowning was pure torture, one of the worst, most painful deaths possible. Angiers had done this to himself for each of those performances. Fortunately, he was dying for this realization certainly would have driven him insane.

 

[Anwar]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

Not only that, but the reason Cutter told him that drowning wasn't horrible was to try and comfort him in that his wife didn't suffer when she died.

Telling him the truth of how horrible it was robbed Angier of the small comfort, in now that he realized how much agony his wife was in when she died.

 

[stj]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

I mean heck, his wife should've still had the tied knot on her wrists when they pulled her out of the tank. Angier and Cutter should've been able to see what type of knot it was for themselves!

Very astute point. Nolan's desire to contrive second rate melodrama actually left a plot hole.

Incidentally, the objection to the intensity of Angier's anger was not that it was inappropriately intense. The problem is that the savagery of the feud between Angier and Borden, however appropriate to the new motivation so ineptly inserted by Nolan, would have been noticed by other people. Knowledgable members of the audience would have been looking for the other to come in and make a spectacular scene. Managers would have put discreet security on the theater. The police might even have been involved. Apparently many people are not bothered when the scenes on screen carry on as if there were other "people" in the fictional world were animated cutouts, but it does tend to bother me.

 

[sojourner]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

I mean heck, his wife should've still had the tied knot on her wrists when they pulled her out of the tank. Angier and Cutter should've been able to see what type of knot it was for themselves!

Very astute point. Nolan's desire to contrive second rate melodrama actually left a plot hole.

Unless, of course, she managed to undo the knot but it took long enough that she drowned before escaping.

 

[Anwar]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

Her death scene didn't make much sense either, we see her struggling in the water and Cutter is able to break the glass to get her out a few seconds later. Yet somehow she still dies.

I think you have to be submerged for a bit longer to die of suffocation.

 

[stj]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

I mean heck, his wife should've still had the tied knot on her wrists when they pulled her out of the tank. Angier and Cutter should've been able to see what type of knot it was for themselves!

Very astute point. Nolan's desire to contrive second rate melodrama actually left a plot hole.

Unless, of course, she managed to undo the knot but it took long enough that she drowned before escaping.

If the knot was untied, then Angier doesn't actually know what caused the fatal delay. The poor woman could have had any number of unexpected things happen, from an untimely hiccup to sudden muscle cramps to an accidental bump on the head.

 

[Bisz]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

I think you have to be submerged for a bit longer to die of suffocation.

Now that we have CPR.

I don't recall the scene in enough detail to know but in reality they certainly didn't have CPR back then and as a result death from drowning was much more likely.

 

[Anwar]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

It's just that when we see her in the tank, still submerged she's clearly struggling and alive (and hasn't been in there very long). Cutter runs out and starts smashing the tube, and does so in a few hits. Somehow she goes from clearly struggling and alive when he starts hitting the tube and when he breaks it open seconds later she's gone totally limp and floating in there. You don't drown that fast, and even without CPR if you've only JUST gone limp you're clearly still alive and your body will instinctively make you try to vomit out the water and breathe again.

 

[sojourner]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

If the knot was untied, then Angier doesn't actually know what caused the fatal delay. The poor woman could have had any number of unexpected things happen, from an untimely hiccup to sudden muscle cramps to an accidental bump on the head.

See below. Plus the fact that there was a whole scene about using the knot and how dangerous it was.

It's just that when we see her in the tank, still submerged she's clearly struggling and alive (and hasn't been in there very long). Cutter runs out and starts smashing the tube, and does so in a few hits. Somehow she goes from clearly struggling and alive when he starts hitting the tube and when he breaks it open seconds later she's gone totally limp and floating in there. You don't drown that fast, and even without CPR if you've only JUST gone limp you're clearly still alive and your body will instinctively make you try to vomit out the water and breathe again.

 

[Satyrquaze]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

^Exactly, since we never see the trick ever performed any other way than the "original" Angiers drowning under the stage, and the copy being the 'Prestige' in the balcony. I think Angiers has deluded himself into thinking he has a 50/50 shot with the trick and the newly created copy of Angiers is elated each time he is miraculously transported to the other side of the theater.

Yet, he was being killed each time. The audience simply could not see the trapdoor fall admist the lightshow.

I disagree on this rationalization.

After Angier's wife drowned, to comfort him Cain told him that a sailor had told him that "drowning was very gentle, like falling asleep in mothers arms." Each night he knew he was going to drown, but believed that it would be peaceful. Of course, we saw how peaceful it was when one of the Twins tried to rescue him. But, the living Angiers never saw this moment.

You could see the realization in Angier's eyes when Cain later reveals the truth, that drowning was pure torture, one of the worst, most painful deaths possible. Angiers had done this to himself for each of those performances. Fortunately, he was dying for this realization certainly would have driven him insane.

Which is all well and good, but I'm not talking about Angier's opinion of how apparently not terrible drowning is.

I'm strictly speaking to his misconceptions as to his chances of survival. He's simply elated to have survived every night. Where did I give an opinion one way or the other about his delusions about how it felt to drown?

Course, if he thinks drowning is a perfectly fine way to go, why the hell is he so pissed at Borden over a possible mistake/accident? I'm questioning his rational, resenting Borden for something he ends up doing to himself many times over?

 

[Destructor]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

As a matter of the way the human brain works you'd always believe you were the 'original'- we would just find it too difficult to grasp the idea that we'd only existed for a few seconds. The trick would seem logical to proceed with because it would always SEEM as though you'd survived, every night! I'm the lucky one, each night! You'd say, because you'd never know that your 'actual' self was drowning in agony every night, and that you were only ever a day old, because it would not seem that way to you, and who are you to say that the way things seemed were not the way they were?

But yeah, I would never get in a matter transporter- as far as I am concerned they kill you and make a copy. Bones should have been a lot more angry about it- after all, if you'd been in a transporter once, why NOT get into it over and over again, since you were already dead?

What's funny about this story is that I have got friends who honestly don't see the difference between themselves and a copy of themselves- they literally can't grasp that if one of you died but a copy of your survived, you'd still be 'alive', so what's the difference? That show 'Dollhouse' was oddly of this opinion- people would d/l their memories into other people and then act like they were 'alive' and everything was dandy. But they were actually dead- they just had copies! Some would ever d/l before death so they could have a young body! That's not how it works!

 

[Aragorn]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

What's funny about this story is that I have got friends who honestly don't see the difference between themselves and a copy of themselves- they literally can't grasp that if one of you died but a copy of your survived, you'd still be 'alive', so what's the difference? That show 'Dollhouse' was oddly of this opinion- people would d/l their memories into other people and then act like they were 'alive' and everything was dandy. But they were actually dead- they just had copies! Some would ever d/l before death so they could have a young body! That's not how it works!

The villains in The Sixth Day acted like this too, thinking it was no big deal if they died because they'd just get cloned. Hell, one of their clones even killed the previous version.

 

[Destructor]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

What's funny about this story is that I have got friends who honestly don't see the difference between themselves and a copy of themselves- they literally can't grasp that if one of you died but a copy of your survived, you'd still be 'alive', so what's the difference? That show 'Dollhouse' was oddly of this opinion- people would d/l their memories into other people and then act like they were 'alive' and everything was dandy. But they were actually dead- they just had copies! Some would ever d/l before death so they could have a young body! That's not how it works!

The villains in The Sixth Day acted like this too, thinking it was no big deal if they died because they'd just get cloned. Hell, one of their clones even killed the previous version.

I know! It's wackness.

 

[Tom Hendricks]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

I think this humorous take on the subject and is well worth the watch.

http://youtu.be/jsqoCmTtQbQ?hd=1

 

[TeknoNurd]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

^Exactly, since we never see the trick ever performed any other way than the "original" Angiers drowning under the stage, and the copy being the 'Prestige' in the balcony. I think Angiers has deluded himself into thinking he has a 50/50 shot with the trick and the newly created copy of Angiers is elated each time he is miraculously transported to the other side of the theater.

Yet, he was being killed each time. The audience simply could not see the trapdoor fall admist the lightshow.

I disagree on this rationalization.

After Angier's wife drowned, to comfort him Cain told him that a sailor had told him that "drowning was very gentle, like falling asleep in mothers arms." Each night he knew he was going to drown, but believed that it would be peaceful. Of course, we saw how peaceful it was when one of the Twins tried to rescue him. But, the living Angiers never saw this moment.

You could see the realization in Angier's eyes when Cain later reveals the truth, that drowning was pure torture, one of the worst, most painful deaths possible. Angiers had done this to himself for each of those performances. Fortunately, he was dying for this realization certainly would have driven him insane.

Which is all well and good, but I'm not talking about Angier's opinion of how apparently not terrible drowning is.

I'm strictly speaking to his misconceptions as to his chances of survival. He's simply elated to have survived every night. Where did I give an opinion one way or the other about his delusions about how it felt to drown?

You were speaking of his "delusion", I used "rationalization", but we're talking about the same thing. How did he get himself to step into the machine night after night?


I brought up the "how it feels to drown" issue as supporting data on what I thought his "delusion/rationalization" was compared to yours. Your point was he deluded himself into some sort of 50/50 chance he would survive, which doesn't match HIS experience. From his experience (mentioned several times in this thread) his exsistence seems unbroken. Angiers get's into the machine, is transported to the balcony, and get's applause, and has another Dead Angiers to deal with.

After the first time, with this subjective memory, it had to be easier to step into the machine. That another Angiers drowned to death would be psychologically difficult to deal with, at best. He is, after all, killing a person, which is generally considered a bad thing. *IF* someone blundered on the body right after the trick, certainly no one would buy it was a "duplicate", and even so, it's STILL murder.

That drowning was peaceful and like "going home" helped him convince himself the copy wasn't suffering. Also, in extremely unlikely event the trick failed, he would be in the box, drowing. Believing it a peaceful, "going home" experience would make it easier to take the chance.

Even *IF* you were right about Angiers deluding himself that he had a 50/50 chance of living/dieing, would he want his death to be as painless as possible? Why did he choose drowning? Because Cain told him it was peaceful, like "going home". Sounds good.

Course, if he thinks drowning is a perfectly fine way to go, why the hell is he so pissed at Borden over a possible mistake/accident? I'm questioning his rational, resenting Borden for something he ends up doing to himself many times over?

Really? If a loved one of yours died peacefully because a friend/competitor/whatever gave her an OD, you would not hold that person accountable? You wouldn't be furious? You'd be in a blood rage! That your loved one died peacefully was a small comfort offered by Cain, not a dismissal of responsibility and guilt.

Angiers was in a rage at Bordon for killing his wife, not HOW he killed his wife. But, as irony and writers have it, in order to offer Angiers the smallest comfort, that she did not suffer, he told Angiers that drowing was peaceful, like "going home". I'm sure it's no accident, and in fact the reason Angiers chose to drown his copy, because it was supposed to be peaceful and he wouldn't suffer. And, if improbably small chance the trick failed, he wouldn't suffer.

Then, at the end, he learns the truth. His wife sufferred horribly. Each of his copies suffered horribly. How do you not internalize and personalize that n "yous" suffered horrible deaths. Had he not died shortly thereafter, he certainly would have lost his mind. Too bad they didn't have time, as that trip to insanity (short as it probably would nave been) could have been interesting to watch.

 

[Gaith]

Re: The Prestige - finally saw it but have a small question(Huge Spoil

Then, at the end, he learns the truth. His wife sufferred horribly. Each of his copies suffered horribly.

Am I the only one who finds this plot point totally absurd? Sailors, and thus drowning, were a lot more common back then, and therefore only a world-class moron could think that drowning was anything other than sheer, absolute-worst horror. It'd be like telling a reasonably smart person today that Alzheimer's isn't a big emotional deal for families, because it's actually kind of adorable, in a childlike way, when parents no longer recognize their own kids. Uh, what?

Too murderous? The guy tied a dangerous knot and killed his wife. He wanted revenge. Whether it was one of the Borden's fault or not is irrelevant. In Angier's eyes, Borden did it and he wanted him humiliated and dead.

Yeah, but as it went on he even admitted (accidentally) that his motivation was now just upstaging Borden and he didn't care about his wife's death anymore.

Right, he became a fanatic, and the thing is, fanatics really aren't all that interesting. And since Borden is just as obsessed, it's a movie about two fanatics. Except, no, it's actually a movie about three fanatics, all dead-set fanatical about the same thing.

Much like Inception, I ended up feeling like Nolan is more interested in puzzle-plots than characters with any kind of depth - or, for that matter, characters that aren't emotional morons. Yes, Leo, no one could have predicted that diving deeper and deeper into your own subconscious with the help of brand-new technology just might go wrong. You poor guy, you!