• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

THE ORVILLE S1, E9: "CUPID'S DAGGER"

Rate the episode:

  • ***** Excellent

    Votes: 15 19.2%
  • ****

    Votes: 26 33.3%
  • ***

    Votes: 15 19.2%
  • **

    Votes: 18 23.1%
  • * Fear the banana

    Votes: 4 5.1%

  • Total voters
    78
This is my least favorite plot of the series so far, but if it wasn't her fault, doesn't that kind of undermine the entire series up to this point?
I got the impression that the blue dude was just letting Grayson off the hook by implying that he was in heat when she cheated on Ed with him. I don't think he was in heat at all. Just the way he looked and sounded made me think he wasn't telling the truth about it.
Well, to be fair, he did say "maybe" (strangely) when she asked him if he was in heat at the time. Leaves a little wiggle room for it to still be on her, but there is definitely doubt there now.
Edit: A lot of the "humor" in the Mercer bits rubbed me the wrong way as well. Were we supposed to find it funny that a straight guy was acting out of character and infatuated with another man?
No, we and everyone on the ship was supposed to find it odd that Mercer would all of a sudden develop googly-eyes over the guy with whom his ex-wife allegedly cheated on him. I think that's more of what Malloy was acting weirdly about.

It may have ostensibly appeared that there was some homophobia there with Mercer's defensive rant on "labeling", but he was clearly not in his right mind. Malloy was simply concerned for a friend acting profoundly weird in a context that shouldn't normally happen.
 
Last edited:
This episode was the kind of episodes I was expecting from the series which was why I had avoided watching it as long as I did.
 
Blue Guy didn't just take advantage of them sexually he knew that his pheromone distractions could prevent crew from doing their duties as well jeopardizing lives. He really should have been taken to task for that. They could've still had the funny scenes of them being lovesick with him while still explaining and not taking advantage of them.

As for Yaphet, any argument that he raped Finn also implies that Data raped Tasha. A person comes to you in an altered mental state, is there strict liability or can you say you were too dumb to realize they were in an altered mental state?
Silly as it was, weren't both Data and Tasha affected in that episode? As to the question, you could claim to not realize an altered mental state but that doesn't mean you haven't taken advantage of someone. I don't think Yaphet knew what was going on but I agree with whoever said above that it would made for a more interesting story if he did and opted not to engage with Finn. Maybe it could've been used to open the door to her learning to like him to some degree in future episodes.
 
Prime Universe Ed: "So, you must be my evil mirror universe twin, eh? I supposed you're evil."

Mirror Universe Ed: "No, not evil."

Prime Universe Ed: "Oh. so, then how are you different?"

Mirror Universe Ed: "I banged the blue guy."
Looks like this universe is its own mirror!

Seriously, though, regarding what many here are interpreting as rape, sexual predation, lack of consent, etc.I don't see it that way. Is my wife taking advantage of me if she puts out pheromones that make her attractive? For that matter, does anything that makes someone attractive to another (looks, hairstyle, makeup, cologne) make subsequent sex non-consensual?

Darulio's people put out strong pheromones that make them more attractive to people, and make others that absorb them become more attractive. In their society, and in many parts of ours, there's nothing wrong with having sex with someone you're attracted to. If Yaphet had changed his form or displayed a talent that made him more attractive to Finn, would that be rape?

Interestingly, The Big Bang Theory had an episode the same night where Raj was seeing a woman who was convinced that love is an illusion brought about by biochemistry. She insisted that any scientist would agree, and I'm sure many do. What this episode of The Orville may have done is open up that same dialogue- What causes love, sexual attraction, etc.? What it didn't do is make jokes about rape.

By the way, I really liked this one.
 
giphy.gif


Every episode doesn’t disappoint. The Orville is a great update to the original series. A series that focuses on characters and plot versus cgi and explosions. I can’t explain why I love this show, except the writing is so damn clever.
 
giphy.gif


Every episode doesn’t disappoint. The Orville is a great update to the original series. A series that focuses on characters and plot versus cgi and explosions. I can’t explain why I love this show, except the writing is so damn clever.

This was my favorite part of the entire episode. More Bortus is always a good thing.
 
What a tease, I think we all wanted to hear the song. :)

Seriously, though, regarding what many here are interpreting as rape, sexual predation, lack of consent, etc.I don't see it that way. Is my wife taking advantage of me if she puts out pheromones that make her attractive? For that matter, does anything that makes someone attractive to another (looks, hairstyle, makeup, cologne) make subsequent sex non-consensual?

What I'd ask is do you think blue guy in this episode knew that he was doing would make other people feel violated according to their own beliefs and the beliefs of their culture? If he knew that, is that not wrong?

I get the humor of what they were going for and "love potions" are an old hoary story plot but it just felt tone-deaf in today's climate.
 
I get the humor of what they were going for and "love potions" are an old hoary story plot but it just felt tone-deaf in today's climate.

Is it though? Using an advantage to gain sexual favors from other people seems to be quite on the nose. I haven't had a chance to see the episode... yet. But from what I'm seeing discussed here, it seems like it tackles an issue but doesn't tell the audience what to think. I could be wrong.
 
Yaphet had every reason to "know." She had made her opposition to him clear and to the mark and was at the point of reporting him to HR if he didn't knock it off and, suddenly, she's head-over-heels for him. Yaphet should've known something was up and turned her down and, really, that would've been more dramatically interesting for the character. For him to turn down his "dream" because he knew it wasn't "real" and for him to be the genesis of people figuring out something was going on and then, at the end, Dr. Finn thanks Yaphet for not taking advantage of her and says they may never be a couple but they can maybe be friends or something along those lines.

But, no, he basically rapes her.


Well, Yaphet was also affected by the pheromones as I understood it, from "ARL" (as you put it) touching him, and I think they conveyed the point pretty well that whoever was affected literally couldn't resist their urges, So Yaphet was just as affected as Dr. Finn, but I do agree with your point, it would have been a better Story overall if Yaphet HADN'T been affected, and he was the one having to turn down Dr. Finn's advances, which made him realize something was happening that was affecting others, I also agree that ARL was kind've a nice guy "sleaze" because by that point in his life he had to know that his pheromones had that effect.
 
OK, that was exceptionally weird.

It was the first episode that had me laughing out loud for minutes straight, I thought the neighbours were going to call the police on me. Then it plunged into uneasy – and possibly uncharted – territory. I didn't know how to feel about that, but it made you like it. I found it good it despite the uncomfortable setup. Or perhaps because of it – it was unusual in that it made me directly relating to the people who were being taken advantage of. I could never relate to the blue comic relief guy (pun intended), so I saw myself in Ed shoes when they made out. The same with happened with Claire. I actually pictured what it would be to wake up realising I had immersed myself inside a sentient blob of jello for hours. So while it did make light of the situation, it was as if it made sure I felt uncomfortable about it anyway.

I don't think the pheromone part bothered me initially – OK, so you're still in full possession of your mental faculties, you can consent – only your desires are altered, and that's not totally dissimilar how a part of attraction works anyway. You're not roofied, just charmed – Ed was cute getting charmed (even when there was something off in that scene too). At the time I was more bothered that Darulio's species found it offensive to refuse sex – that sounded very rapey.

But then the pheromone business escalated beyond any level of acceptability – Mercer bailed out of the diplomatic talks, and if that was within bounds of reason, Claire demanded more sex from Yaphit at gunpoint. I don't think that the Claire I know from previous episodes would do anything close to that in a sober state, no matter how infatuated she was with somebody. The degree of it blurred the line between a pheromone and a powerful mind-altering drug. Maybe it would still be subject to different judgement, but I don't think ever giving it to the ambassadors would ever be seen as OK... I guess stopping the war was more important.

The episode could have been slightly more conscious of what it was doing. Or if not that, at least, instead of having Alara complicit in drugging the ambassadors, have them get it accidentally, and have her try to keep them apart, as she did with Claire and Yaphit.
 
Here's the thing about Yaphit: He had no reason to believe Finn was acting in her right mind.

Say there's a woman at your work whom you constantly flirt with, relentlessly, and she more-or-less deals with it or takes it stride even though she constantly refuses you when you ask her out, even when your advances grow more and more suggestive. She's a strong enough woman to deal with it and dismiss it but she grows more and more solid on her opposition to it where she finally says, "Enough is enough. This was fun for a while but you've gone too far, speak to me like this again and I report you to HR!" and then she walks away clearly pissed.

The next time you see her she's shown up at your door step dressed to the nines ready to fuck your brains out.

Aren't you going to be just a little bit suspicious that something isn't right here?

In our mundane world, yeah, it'd be hard to think "oh, clearly she was exposed to crazy pheromones" and more likely she's either on some kind of chemical intoxicant and lost her senses or she's trying to entrap you into committing a crime.

Yaphit had no reason to believe Finn was genuinely acting of her own choices and since he lives in a fantastic sci-fi setting there should be any number of reasons he could think of that why she'd suddenly flip on her feelings. As, I said previously it also would've been vastly more interesting for Yaphit's character if he'd turned her down because he knew something had to be wrong, she was acting completely against everything she'd ever said to him.

But maybe, now that he's had his time with her we can stop revisiting this little element as it's one of the ones that was the most annoying with the show. Sexual harassment isn't funny. (And it was sexual harassment he constantly bugged her, in her place of work, and made lewd advances even after she'd made her feelings clear.)

As for Malloy's "homophobia" I can see the angle of where some are coming from that it was less "gay panic" and just more confusion over his friend behaving so abnormally, not just being into another male but a male whom moments ago he loathed with all his might. Now he spritzing and stepping through a cloud of cologne to meet this guy. So I can read that into it but Malloy's reaction still seemed a little odd, particularly the "soon he's going to be into him" comment. But, perhaps, casual references to sex in this 25th century are less crass and what he said was no different than if he'd spoken that way about a male/female couple. "Soon HE'S going to be into her!"

It just seemed a bit... Odd but even Kelly didn't seem too bothered that her ex-husband was now gushing over another dude. (Though she wasn't in her right mind either.)

But what Blue Rob Lowe did here was absolutely a form of rape (and what he presumably did to Kelly a year ago) he knew his pheromones impacted the way people behaved and caused them to behave and make decisions they'd probably not ordinarily make. It's no different than any other time someone is given a chemical intoxicant of some kind that causes them to take leave of their senses and behave in an abnormal manner, his species stance on sex and this being a natural biological process is irrelevant, he knew things were being influenced by his biology and people weren't making these choices with all of the information. ("Hey, just so you know, right now you may have stronger feelings for me because I'm going through heat and how my species does that. So don't take any feelings you may have about me too seriously."

And, come on, the "stray hair" he plucked from Kelly and his goading Ed into peering into the microscope, he knew exactly what would happen in doing these things and did them to get these people off his back and to be less antagonistic towards him.

I dunno, this was just for me a generally messy episode. But they can't all be "winners" I guess, the subject matter in it was just too icky to be taken in a humorous manner especially in the wake of what's been going on in Hollywood the last few weeks. (Well, always, but it seems the last few weeks some flood gates have opened.)

Next week looks to be back on track.

(As for the Yar/Data thing in "The Naked Now" with the Psi 2000 Virus/Polywater Intoxication that's a bit.... "messier." Particularly since once Yar touched Data he would've been "intoxicated" too and we even kind of see that from him as they retreat to the bedroom he smiles oddly like he does later when he's out of behavior. But, if we assume Data wasn't yet consumed enough by the contamination to also be intoxicated then, yes, Data absolutely "raped" Yar since she was not acting of her own choices and was being influenced by the Polywater Intoxication. But the implication always seemed to me that they were *both* "drunk" thus they both get the benefit of a night of bad choices and the influences of organized water molecules in a high-gravity environment.

(We could also probably, along these lines, argue that Ro "raped" Commander Riker in the episode where everyone on the ship has had their memories blocked and they don't know who they are and begin behaving irrationally. Ro strongly comes on to Riker and they copulate; both should know neither of them are making decisions with all of the information and their faculties intact. (Ro gets the "rape" label since she was more the aggressor in their encounters. But Riker gets dinged too for not stopping things given the circumstances.)
 
Here's the thing about Yaphit: He had no reason to believe Finn was acting in her right mind.

He had no reason to believe Finn wasn't acting in her right mind either. Like others said, maybe he thought in public (med bay, hallways) she couldn't show her love for him but in private, after his last effort to woo her, she came around and came to him after hours, in his quarters.
 
@Mr. Adventure

Data was not affected until after he had sex with Tasha.

@ChasFink

That's the question, whether the pheromones just make them really aroused or whether it affects their ability to apply rationality. Is the pheromone more like alcohol or roofies?

A woman has a few drinks and chooses to sleep with a man she would not sleep with sober, the man has not committed a crime. A man secretly gives her alcohol in a way she would not know it was there, not so clear cut. He affected their mental states and ability to think rationally without their consent.
 
A woman has a few drinks and chooses to sleep with a man she would not sleep with sober, the man has not committed a crime.

That's a legal gray area and there's been countless cases around those situations and they've gone both ways. In some ways it is a crime because a person cannot legally consent to something if they are impaired. Plenty of people have been prosecuted for sleeping with women who were intoxicated even if the intoxication came from their own actions.

e had no reason to believe Finn wasn't acting in her right mind either. Like others said, maybe he thought in public (med bay, hallways) she couldn't show her love for him but in private, after his last effort to woo her, she came around and came to him after hours, in his quarters.

That's too much of a "No means Yes" kind of way of looking at it. (Though, I suppose in this case the opposite.) She did a complete 180 on him, her entire personality and front to him changed, he should have been suspicious that something was up because she goes from threatening to talk to HR to wanting to be all over him (or all in him) in a flash, without ever saying "Hey, I have to keep a front in sickbay, but let's give it a go." She goes from constantly rebuffing his advances in sickbay, to yelling at him and threatening to report him to HR and throwing him out to fully wanting him? Alarm bells should have gone off in his [head] that she was under some kind of influence. People take Ecstasy and become overly amorous, if a woman from work knocked on my door, high on Ecstasy, and pleaded her endless desire to have sex with me I'd be suspicious. More so if she was someone I had a confrontational encounter with very recently to the extent she threatened me with some kind of action involving either work or legal authority.

I sometimes don't completely understand what people mean when they speak of "Rape Culture" in America and it's things like this that makes me sort of realize what it is they're talking about. People too willing to just excuse sexual encounters because there's some variable or unknown or we assuming some form of ignorance on the part of the person making the decisions of their own free will and that we should just shrug and accept it happened. Well, what about the victim? (In this case Dr. Finn.) It's not likely something we're going to see dealt with in the show but isn't she going to be slightly bothered or traumatized about her own memories of everything that happened to her the last few days? Alara got a shock entering her office but Finn is going to have to live with actually DOING these things and also be expected to continue working with the being who did this to her and even treating him in true medical situations.

Yaphit had more signs and clues thrown at him that Finn was not interested in any manner, she had made that abundantly clear. He had NO reason to think her sudden 180 was a genuine turn and all previous encounters were the false ones put on due to situational circumstances. (Being sickbay.) He has countless cases of her saying "No, I'm not interested" and "No, Stop asking!" and he has ONE case of her coming in and "asking for it" out of the clear-blue (black?) sky.

And ignorance of something isn't an excuse. Yeah, Yaphit didn't know about the pheromone problem spreading around and he really didn't seem to think Finn was acting odd or seemed to be consciously taking advantage of her diminished capacity but he still should have known better. He has virtually no reason to think this was truly "her."

(I like to say that an episode of a show, particularly shows like this that take on topics, is as good as the discussion it creates. That's why I think "Majority Rule" was such a great episode because of all of the discussion it generated about our society and rush-to-judgment on little no information way of doing things socially. This episode is an exception, it's not good because of the discussion it's generating because it's not a discussion it intended to generate because it's not an issue it dealt with. It treats the stuff between Yaphit and Finn as "humorous." It's generating this discussion because it handled the topic poorly.

There would've been a lot more respect, from me, in this episode had Yaphit turned Finn down because it was clear to him she wasn't right in the head. Yeah it was his "dream" to have a night with her, but he wanted it to come from her and not from chemical influence.)
 
But Yaphit was affected also since Darulio touched him, so how much perspective was he able to have when the object of his affections suddenly appears at his door? Being unable to focus on anything but sex nearly ruined everything, but then it stopped a brewing war (which came to a head because of the captain and first officer's preoccupation).
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top