The No Currency Thing On Earth

[CorporalCaptain]

The no money thing is illogical and should be ignored. "But Picard and Jake said ..." Don't care, it's stupid, makes no sense and contradicts many other moments on Star Trek where people clearly used money to pay for things.

No, it doesn't contradict anything. It actually squares things so everybody can have their cake and eat it too.

No money = just Earth, and maybe certain other planets.
Money = the Federation.

Jake has no Federation job, and hence no Federation money. But he doesn't need a job either, because paradise. Jake also has no Earth money, because no Earth money.

There's both money, and no money.

 

[XCV330]

Not as much as you think. Roman coins were still be used in some areas well into the modern age.

I didn't make an off the cuff remark. I know they continued to be used. We own a few late-period examples. And yes some of them were reused as they were previous metals and, proving my point, worked as a medium of exchanged for settled peoples, but it is also true many of them were melted down and recast as new coins by those newly resettled peoples. If we say the Romano-Britons began losing significant territory around 409-to the mid 400's, and that the first faltering attempts to issue Jutish coins may have happened in the late 500's then yes, then yes domestic production did pick back up again, not in earnest of course because one: the region was in extreme transition, but people did continue to issue money and more importantly in this context, even in the worst of times, they continued to use it.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

people did continue to issue money and more importantly in this context, even in the worst of times, they continued to use it.

Again, not as much as you think. Whereas money sometimes made it into the hands of peasants, it was made for the transactions of elites and, to a lesser extent,artisans. There simply isn't a significant supply of gold and silver to support the kind of money economy that you imagine. That won't happen until the Spanish exploited Central American mines and gold was discovered in California.

 

[XCV330]

Again, not as much as you think. Whereas money sometimes made it into the hands of peasants, it was made for the transactions of elites and, to a lesser extent,artisans. There simply isn't a significant supply of gold and silver to support the kind of money economy that you imagine. That won't happen until the Spanish exploited Central American mines and gold was discovered in California.

First, can you stop with the smug "not as much as you think", nonsense? You don't have a clue what I think, so let's keep things civil if we're going to reply to one another. It seems clear we both have some information about this subject and while we may not agree about some things, I think we may be splitting hairs on a tangent that is quickly leaving the orbit of the original subject.

So yes, coinage was for the elite (not entirely but that's out of the scope of this discussion). People tied to he land as villeins or what have you clearly did NOT need complicated exchanges and they're not exactly trying to order complicated trade commodities on a regular basis, so they are no more in need of money then a migratory herdin family. But trade does still occur during that time, and again, as you mention. Coins are issued, therefore are used, and they are used as a medium of exchange. Not everyone has them then, no, but they are important enough and valuable enough that the right to issue coinage was a literal hallmark of state authority.

 

[kkt]

Jake is young and has only recently been indoctrinated into the evolved humanity/we don't use money club. He gets everything from his father, and is too young to have generated social credits yet, so of course he just parrots the party line back at Nog.

Yes, I think this is a pretty reasonable head cannon even though it has little support from what we see on the screen.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

First, can you stop with the smug "not as much as you think", nonsense?

Talking in absolutes is smug as well.

 

[Kor]

Thing is both Crusher and Picard made purchases during the show, Picard did so on a Federation planet while on holiday.

Robert Picard disliked/distrusted replicators, so there must have been a way for him to acquire what he needed other than through a replicator.

Miles O'Brien's family didn't have a relicator either.

In the DS9 episode "In The Cards" Jake said he had no money, but earlier Quark suggested Captain Sisko bid on a baseball card and Jake said nothing about his father having no money.

QUARK: Tell him to be here at twelve hundred hours and he can bid along with everyone else.
JAKE: No. I'm going to bid on this.

And why, if Humanity placed no value in possessions, would Captain Sisko place more worth in a real mint condition nineteen fifty one Willie Mays rookie baseball card, over a replicated reproduction?

Sentimental value.

Kor

 

[Tenacity]

the Federation houses and feeds you

The very thought that you would be completely dependant on a government for your housing and food is horrifying.

When Lily Sloane asked him how much the USS Enterprise-E cost to build, Picard told her, "The economics of the future is somewhat different. You see, money doesn't exist in the 24th century... The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of Humanity."

But when Lily asked him point blank if he got paid, Picard quickly ducked the question.

Jake is young and has only recently been indoctrinated into the evolved humanity/we don't use money club.

Very recently, only a few episodes prior to "In The Cards" Jake was gleefully earning money.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Very recently, only a few episodes prior to "In The Cards" Jake was gleefully earning money.

Not surprised. What was Jake doing, again?

 

[Nakita Akita]

Not surprised. What was Jake doing, again?

Really?
I can't remember him earning money.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Really?
I can't remember him earning money.

I don't recall either, which is why I'm asking. But I'd not be surprised if he won at Quark's, say, only to give it all away.

 

[Tenacity]

Jake and Nog engaged in a series of business deals that eventually nets them several strips or bars of GPL. It's the episode where we first hear of self-sealing stem bolts.

 

[kkt]

Not surprised. What was Jake doing, again?

Most of the time, he was a student. Perhaps students have no discretionary credits.

Then he was a writer of fiction and reporter. He should have gotten something for that.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I have to lean towards there is no money use because the show specifically said it like two different times. They dropped into canon in front a few million viewers, so it's going to be hard to undo it explain otherwise.

The no money thing really sounds like a great idea for the future, but for storytelling it makes no sense. Either humans are back to bartering, or everything is absolutely free, or people work hard and run businesses for no compensation. ("In the 24th century, I work as a maid for a b*tch because self fulfillment is its own reward".)

And then there's people /humans committing crime for money when the show was saying for years that they don't have to. Everything is free on earth.


One out of universe reason may be is that there never really was a specific backstory created for the human economy, only just have the characters repeatedly saying that humans 'solved all their problems. There's no more poverty, people are happy etc..

So we got this weird mishmash of an economy where humans say they don't use money at all, yet own property, buy boats, and yet still go to replicators and order food without paying for anything. And say there is no need or want.

Really oddball.

 

[Nakita Akita]

I think since there has never been a non-scarcity society it is way beyond the scope of writers of a fictional show to devise even a semblance for a working economic theory
With no money.
So I think we either have to just accept what the characters say as the truth or go absolutely insane.
I'm pretty sure some of us have gone one direction and others the other direction.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Jake and Nog engaged in a series of business deals that eventually nets them several strips or bars of GPL. It's the episode where we first hear of self-sealing stem bolts.

That was "Progress," a first season episode. "In the Cards" was a fifth-season episode. That one wasn't just a few episodes before, plenty of time to lose his share/give it all to Nog. Jake obviously wasn't big on saving.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Jake is young and has only recently been indoctrinated into the evolved humanity/we don't use money club. He gets everything from his father, and is too young to have generated social credits yet, so of course he just parrots the party line back at Nog.



The unexeptional people are not being punished. They have it better than paycheck to paycheck people have it today. You just get rewarded for contributing to society. And while there are unlimited resources there is not unlimited space of equal quality, So no matter what there has to be a way to decide who lives where. Scarcity also applies to authenticity (non replicated objects and real world not holodeck experiences.)

A pack of assholes were raising the ocean floor creating a new continent by playing with tectonic plates. Maybe there were checks and balances to stop punks from accidentally sinking Europe, but these particular assholes were influential enough to get their project off the ground, but dumb enough to find the science a road block and desperate enough to hand everything over to a celebrity to breathe life back into their dead end Atlantis bollocks.

This sounds like civilians given infinite resources?

Earlier I was referring to colonization when I said infinite space. Space on Earth would be held at an impossible premium as it is the seat of governance for hundreds of member worlds and thousands more "territories" and colony worlds, and they probabably have capped their population, since there ONLY 50 million people on the Moon.

It's highly likely that the humans of the 22nd century gave Earth to the Federation, if you follow their philosophy to an absolute lunacy, or there's maybe a hundred year lease, without any exchange of remuneration.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Except barter is a bad system and was never good enough, that's why every society at some point came up with a currency so that you don't have to stuff lawn chairs into your car to trade them for a new dining room carpet. Barter only works on a very small scale, the idea that earth would do away with money and return to bartering is nonsense.

Just look at your example, the Picards are supposed to negotiate for some random stuff as payment for their wine but unless they only sell to people who offer stuff they need and throw away a bunch of their wine they also have to accept stuff they don't need as payment which they of course will keep for more bartering to get the stuff they do need. They have to store all that stuff they don't need somewhere so there's probably a "barter barn" on the property full of candlesticks, foot massage vouchers from Risa, an original painting from an up and coming artist from Mars, sealed salt vampire action figures, antique clown noses and a bunch of other shit Marie has to keep organized to offer when she goes to get whatever isn't for free ... does this sound even remotely sensible?

Do you really have to work this hard to not get the point? Star Trek is a fantasy World not the real world; it's established currency is obsolete, and I can accept that because that element is not important to Star Trek. It's about ideas, and optimism - the Star Trek Universe has as many extraterrestrial origins as the population of Earth; they're a billion civilizations out there and I'm positive, like a Star Trek fan, there's a lot of demand for Picard's goods and Joseph Sisko's services and many of the Utopian traders of the UFP.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Jake was a reporter for the Federation news service.

Jake did not collect a wage.

Even if you pro-money Yahoo's are right, Jake couldn't get his pay check from the Federation through the battle lines of the Dominon War.

Who paid for Jake's room and board on Terrok Nor during the occupation?

1. Gul Dukat, because he is such great friends with Benjamin, that he considers Jake to be a nephew... Even though he was a criminal hunted by the Dominion half the time.


2. Weyoun because Jake is nearly and almost a prisoner of war, and Weyoun is such great friends with Benjamin, that he considers Jake to be his nephew.

3. Quark who is keeping a ledger and tracking interest on this ongoing ever increasing "loan".

4. The Bajoran Government, or the Kai or the assembly of vedeks, is subsidizing the son of the prophet because Jake is space Jesus, and you don't #### with the space Jesus.

5. The Federation is being blackmailed by the Dominion. A lot of pow camps could very easily turn into mass graves if the Federation stops sending the enemy shipments of deuterium and dilithium to destroy the Federation with. If they are paying to let Jake live; then it's hypocritical to let everyother prisoner of the Dominion suck it.

6. The female changeling who was paying for Jakes room and board, was reserving Jake as a wmd of final recourse to stop Captain Sisko from winning.

7. Leeta was paying for Jake because she thought that Jake an Nog, her son, were dating.

8. Odo and Kira were paying for Jake, because "duh".

9. Jake has been independently wealthy since, like a cuck, he couldn't afford to buy a base ball for his daddy.

10. The Dominion also doesn't have money, so they did not charge any one rent, just like the Federation didn't charge rent. Even if the Dominon has money, their deal/treaty with the Bajorans was to keep everything samesies, so the Dominion did not collect rent because the Federation did not collect rent.

 

[kkt]

10, with modifications. The Dominion isn't charging Jake rent because it's a Bajoran station and the treaty. The rental rates, if any, that were in effect when the Federation operated the station were not changed. The Dominion wants to show Bajor and the rest of the neutral Alpha Quadrant powers that they are kind, gentle occupiers whose word can be trusted.