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The Maquis Raider, Starfleet's Answer to the Klingon BoP?

Nimitz CO

Lieutenant Commander
Red Shirt
Hello All,

This question has been on my mind for quite some time now, is the Maquis Raider A.K.A. the Ju'Dea Class Starfleet's answer to design a ship comperable to the small Klingon BoP, which seems to be logical, considering the armament it carries for such a small ship. Or was it designed for something else? any thoughts would be appriciated. :vulcan:
 
The capabilities indeed seem very similar. Both types have aerodynamic-looking wings with wingtip (and in the ENT era BoPs, midspan or underhull) mounts for forward-firing weapons. Both also have a heavy-looking torpedo armament, although at least some of the Ju'Days carry aft tubes which the small BoPs lack. The Ju'Day flown by Chakotay seemed to be able to carry at least 30 Maquis in a cinch, whereas a small BoP from the TOS movie era can carry two humpback whales.

Yet the intended missions for the two types need not be the same. In "The Maquis pt I", Sisko identifies a Maquis torpedo-toting ship as an "auxiliary courier", a role perhaps well befitting the observed Ju'Day design and characteristics. I doubt the Klingons had courier duty in mind when designing the small BoP...

The Ju'Day appears antiquated and retired from Starfleet use in DS9/VOY, but the interiors glimpsed in VOY do suggest former Starfleet identity. One wonders if a successor design was ever created for the 2360s-70s, and what that design might look like.

One also wonders whether some Starfleet/Earth design of this sort preceded the Ju'Day, and if perhaps something like this already existed in the ENT timeframe where aerodynamic forms were common. In many ways, the delta-hulled ships from ENT are functionally similar to the ENT BoPs: aerodynamics, similar size, weaponry apparently not quite on par with the heavier designs of the era.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I think in real purpose, yes, I'd say they were designed to counter birds-of-prey, although Starfleet may have Orwelled them as "auxiliary couriers" in the same way that the Defiant was an "escort."

I don't think Starfleet designed them to be akin to commerce raiders in the same way the birds-of-prey were designed, though.
 
Starfleet's official line is that they don't believe in warships, but if they wanted to deploy a scout-class vessel, heavily armed and armored with a cloaking device, they would send a Defiant-class ship.
 
I still say the official line should be amended to:

"We don't believe in warships... anymore. Promise. The Defiant? Oh, that's just... an escort. Yep. That's all it is. Akira? Uh, through-deck cruiser. Prometheus? Uh, deep space interceptor."

Orwellian, I tell ya.
 
I had a previous thread about this, but here's the schematic again, for reference:

Maquis Raider

And the class was called a light freighter, before the Maquis modifications.
 
Ju'Day? Judgment Day-class?

They were definitely Starfleet. They were in the DS9 major battles. They just called them "fighters" though. The Federation probably said they were "fighters of injustice" not "fighters of war".

Ju'day, named after a person who worked on Trek named Penny Juday. I hadn't thought of the Terminator connection. ;)

I can't help but wonder: Chakotay's ship was said to be about 40 years old and therefore outdated. Before being Chakotay's ship, the model had a different and indicatively smaller cockpit. Should we consider both to be the same craft? Also, should we consider the "attack fighters" seen on DS9 (presumably the Peregrine class) to be their replacements, or an entirely different class of ship?

To me, the two aren't that different...

I still don't see how "light freighter" works. Light courier, sure, but "freighter"? What kind of freight?

Edit: RegentWorf, I think we both replied to the wrong thread, so I re-replied here. :shifty:
 
But the Maqui had limited resources to begin with and only Chakotay's ship was the one that had a 39 year old ENGINE (nothing was said about weapons or shields).
Their ships would be outdated in a technological sense in some areas due to resource limitation, and they failed to commandeer anything larger hence why no one perceived them as a large threat ... they did things covertly for the most part and the Cardassians were the ones who took highest notice of them blaming the Feds for the Maqui's existence.
They likely started to construct some makeshift shipyards on remote locations to build more fighter type ships ... but it would have been difficult because of resources being limited and the final entrance of the Dominion into the scene which effectively strengthened the Cardies beyond Maqui's abilities to affect them.
 
I can't help but wonder: Chakotay's ship was said to be about 40 years old and therefore outdated. Before being Chakotay's ship, the model had a different and indicatively smaller cockpit. Should we consider both to be the same craft?

I vote yes, because of the effect they tried to achieve with those two different cockpits. The original one indicated shuttle interiors and gave no hint of further spaces beyond the set; the one from "Caretaker" indicated that the entire redressed-runabout interior set was but a command center and held a fraction of the crew/passengers, and this set still occupied only a bit over half the volume of the original alien-shuttle set.

If Chakotay flew a Ju'Day, then the smaller craft is obviously from the same manufacturer and probably named Oku'Day. ;)

As for the resources available to the Maquis, in DS9 "The Maquis" it was indicated that the organization had only two truly combatworthy ships - the two flown against the runabout fleet at the end of the second part, later identified as modern Starfleet fightercraft. Yet the Maquis had many ships in their possession even back then, including the torpedo-toting "auxiliary courier" that Sisko faced in part one.

I'd like to think that the Maquis had access to a number of large ships designed for noncombat tasks, and these included a large number of legitimately owned colonial Ju'Days. Arming these to combat standards was slow work, though, so only the two purpose-built and no doubt illegitimately obtained warcraft were ready for combat at the time of "The Maquis II". The guns on the Ju'Day ships would largely be retrofits, then.

I doubt the Maquis ever built any ships by themselves, as shipbuilding sounds like a major undertaking. Rather, they'd have converted existing small and medium vessels, which they probably had in staggering quantities thanks to the colonial lifestyle. After all, several episodes indicate that it would be no problem for a colony in the DMZ or other contested areas to provide a lift for a small band of Maquis, or sometimes even to evacuate the entire colony.

The converting could take an industrialized, standardized form, though. Thus, all of Eddington's Ju'Days in "For the Uniform", plus Chakotay's ship in "Caretaker", would look identically different from the original, unseen civilian/lightly armed Ju'Day. The ships do look heavily greebled over; perhaps the civilian/lightly armed form lacked the clamplike weapon things at wing roots, the various clusters of sensors or jammers or whatnot, and possibly even the wingtip cannon.

Timo Saloniemi
 
The Maquis raider (typically a Peregrine-class scout ship) is about half the size of a BoP and has nowhere near the armament or warp capability. Even the ship Chakotay used in VOY was only about 50m long, compared to the 100-120m BoP. The closest thing the Federation has ever produced to the BoP would probably have to be the Defiant-class. It is specifically geared to battle, with few scientific measures on board, scant crew quarters, and very few amenities... VERY similar to a BoP.
 
Hello All,

This question has been on my mind for quite some time now, is the Maquis Raider A.K.A. the Ju'Dea Class Starfleet's answer to design a ship comperable to the small Klingon BoP, which seems to be logical, considering the armament it carries for such a small ship. Or was it designed for something else? any thoughts would be appriciated. :vulcan:

No, because I doubt they were designed by Starfleet. Probably they were the Maquis' answer to larger Cardassian designs that "accidentally" ended up in the hands of their opposite numbers in the DMZ. I kind of doubt Starfleet had anything to do with the design; if anything they're militarized versions of old civilian ships that never served in Starfleet in the first place.
 
I can't believe the Maquis ever designed or built a starship. That's just not the sort of thing a bunch of interstellar farmers would be capable of doing.

I can believe they were more or less civilian originally (although UFP civilian vessels may well be armed, considering how hostile the Trek universe is). However, I could also believe in a Starfleet origin, as the interiors of Chakotay's ship had interfaces more or less in old Starfleet style.

Of course, Starfleet style might be the same as civilian style for all we know; we have seen rather few assuredly civilian UFP vessel interiors to draw comparisons. And for example the Norkova of DS9 "The Passenger" fame, with modern Starfleet interfaces, might have been a civilian vessel as she wasn't explicitly identified as Starfleet or government - thus giving us the necessary counterproof. But nothing is certain yet in that respect.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I can't believe the Maquis ever designed or built a starship. That's just not the sort of thing a bunch of interstellar farmers would be capable of doing.
They can steal industrial replicators, they can manufacture weapons of mass destruction, they can reprogram a captured Cardassian dreadnaught, they can even modify "old support couriers" to carry photon torpedoes. But they can't redesign an obsolete civilian freighter for use as a rather modest weapons platform? :vulcan:
 
Sure they can redesign stuff. But I'd be mightily surprised if they could cobble together even a single original warp drive. That's just not something a bunch of angry hillbillies should logically be capable of doing - not even if they have an Annapolis dropout and two insiders from West Point assisting them.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Ju'Day? Judgment Day-class?

They were definitely Starfleet. They were in the DS9 major battles. They just called them "fighters" though. The Federation probably said they were "fighters of injustice" not "fighters of war".

Ju'day, named after a person who worked on Trek named Penny Juday. I hadn't thought of the Terminator connection. ;)

...

Edit: RegentWorf, I think we both replied to the wrong thread, so I re-replied here. :shifty:

Oops. How'd I manage to post in the wrong thread, woops. :p

Anyway, if the Peregrine-class is 40-years old, that's an improvement over the 70-year old Mirandas and Excelsiors that were fighting in the Dominion War!
 
I'd sort of prefer the name Ju'Day even if it wasn't in spoken dialogue - we got it in onscreen graphic form at least, which is more than we can say about e.g. "Miranda class".

The term Peregrine class could be reserved to another of the myriad Maquis designs - or perhaps used for the small interceptors that Starfleet also uses, if we accept that those could be "modified couriers" in Starfleet parlance (as per "Heart of Stone") as well as "attack fighters" ("Sacrifice of Angels" et al.).

Or perhaps Starfleet sez "Peregrine" where civilians say "Ju'Day"?

Timo Saloniemi
 
Sure they can redesign stuff. But I'd be mightily surprised if they could cobble together even a single original warp drive. That's just not something a bunch of angry hillbillies should logically be capable of doing - not even if they have an Annapolis dropout and two insiders from West Point assisting them.

There's nothing to indicate the Maquis could be described as anything close to "angry hilbillies" considering these are the very same people who originally colonized these planets in the first place. Quite a few of them were apparently engineers and skilled professionals prior to joining the Maquis, while a number of others were themselves Starfleet officers.

Your better example would be the Tamil Tigers or the Iranian Revolutionary Guards: organizations that DO have the benefit of captured technology and the time and willingness to reverse engineer it and make modifications. Or if that example doesn't fit your prejudice of the Maquis universal backwardness, take the precedent from the Wounded Knee incident in the 1960s, in which Oglala rebels were aided under siege by "angry hillbillies" air-dropping supplies in Cessnas.
 
I'd argue that colonizing of planets isn't a job for astronauts and engineers, but for farmers. And while I grant some tech prowess to a typical Trek colony, my angle on this is that warp-capable starships are always a major effort regardless of size, comparable not to aircraft or speedboats today, but to space shuttles.

Okay, so my real angle here is that, if the Ju'Days are going to be preexisting hardware anyway by design at least, then what evidence would we have for Maquis-built starships? What incentive would we have in believing in them?

Timo Saloniemi
 
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