The Kobayashi Maru Test

[Checkmate]

One of the biggest (and only) problems I really had with Star Trek was the entire Kobayashi Maru subplot.

I don't think Abrams quite grasped the nuances behind Kirk cheating on the test. In this movie, he apparently did it to rebel because he was tired of no one ever passing it. He was just an arrogant brat who cheated because he could. And when called on it, he didn't try to argue the valid point the original Kirk had. He did it, and I paraphrase, because he "didn't believe in no-win scenarios."

The whole point of original Kirk's cheating wasn't simply because he didn't believe in no-win scenarios. It was because he firmly believed that as a captain facing a no-win scenario, you had to think outside the box and do whatever was in your power to do to win. Which is exactly what he did. And it's exactly why he was (eventually) applauded for it.

What's worse, the new Kirk didn't even bother to be subtle about it. He didn't reprogram the scenario to simply give him a slight advantage in which he could use some kind of ingenious tactic to win. He just wiped out the shields, acting like a jerk, ate an apple, and pretended his hand was a revolver, all apparently under the assumption that no one would figure out he cheated so blantantly. Even worse, the new Spock acted bewildered at how he could have "won" the scenario after watching him do exactly that.

I'm just disappointed that it was such a wasted opportunity and, for me, it was easily one of the weakest character moments in the film that forever tarnishes the tactical brilliance of Kirk.

Still enjoyed the rest of the movie immensely, mind you. Just not this part.

 

[Thrawn]

I loved it.

I thought the way it was played was perfect. I don't think Kirk would've been the type to covertly reprogram it so it still looked like a struggle to win the simulation; that would've been dishonest. His point was that, as you said, the fundamental test had to be approached from another direction, and if the simulation itself was invalid, what the hell would be the point in taking it seriously at all?

His goal was to as blatantly as possible demonstrate that the test was flawed and he was inventive enough to think outside the box. I don't think he ever expected no one would notice!

 

[Checkmate]

Even if I agreed, none of that was protrayed in any of the scenes in the movie. Kirk was just being an asshat for the sake of being an asshat. Even at his "court martial," he didn't once bring up any of that. It was just "I don't believe in no-win scenarios."

 

[Cky]

When he was infront of the council trying to decide his fate, Kirk says "I didn't believe in no-win scenarios", and Spock says something along the lines of "You of all people should know about no win scenarios" giving that his father died on the Kelvin because of a no-win scenario.

Plus, I think this Kirk wanted them to know he cheated, just because he could. But again, we don't know what happened in the canon timeline, this could have very well been the same thing that happened, and then a major event changed Kirk in to the Captain we know today.

(Picard is a prime example, when we saw him in the academy he was wreckless until he got stabbed.)

 

[Thrawn]

And I disagree; I think that's exactly what was portrayed in the movie.

Or at least could have been.

Part of the problem with this film, I think, is that it covers so much territory so quickly, and absent any of the characters actually explaining to us their motivations or reasons behind doing things,most people on here seem to take the first explanation that comes to mind and declare it what the movie intended.

There was a post a while ago on here that I loved; "I like my movies to make sense but I also don't mind doing a little work for it".

There's certainly nothing in the film to contradict my interpretation of events, nor yours. It's just a question of how you see the character arcs working, a surprisingly great deal of which was left up to the viewer's interpretation.

Which, actually, is one of the movie's strengths in my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Franklin]

I loved it.

I thought the way it was played was perfect. I don't think Kirk would've been the type to covertly reprogram it so it still looked like a struggle to win the simulation; that would've been dishonest. His point was that, as you said, the fundamental test had to be approached from another direction, and if the simulation itself was invalid, what the hell would be the point in taking it seriously at all?

His goal was to as blatantly as possible demonstrate that the test was flawed and he was inventive enough to think outside the box. I don't think he ever expected no one would notice!

You know, I didn't like the scene either for many of the OP's reasons, but this explanation is the best one out there for why it went down like it did. I can buy that.

But I still say that to me, Pine played it almost as if Kirk were a little bit drunk. Which I guess would've fit.

I think the big thing is the way Orci and Kurtzman sold it, we were thought we were finally going to see how Kirk beat the K-M test as he did in the other timeline. Instead, we see him do it in this one. And, I seriously doubt that is how he did it in the other. The similarity is that put into the same situations, both Kirk's rebelled against the no-win idea.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

The fact my wife usually finds Star Trek completely boring as hell and yet laughed throughout the entire Kobayashi Maru Test scene is good enough reason to like it and consider it a great moment in the movie. Even I laughed through it, that was the whole point of that scene.

 

[Ayelbourne]

The whole point of original Kirk's cheating wasn't simply because he didn't believe in no-win scenarios. It was because he firmly believed that as a captain facing a no-win scenario, you had to think outside the box and do whatever was in your power to do to win. Which is exactly what he did. And it's exactly why he was (eventually) applauded for it.

Well that's just it, though. This isn't the original Kirk. He doesn't have to have the same reasons for his actions.
One of the advantages of opening up an alternate timeline is that you can develop your characters in a different way.

 

[Kelso]

Yeah, he was flaunting the fact that he cheated.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Yeah, he was flaunting the fact that he cheated.

I think we also need to realise that cheating on the test and actually managing to implant a sub routine to do so is no easy feat at all. The fact Kirk managed to implant the sub-routine in the first place shows Kirks ingenuity. Even Spock didn't know how he was able to cheat because Spock probably also realised just to get a sub-routine into the test would be extremely difficult.

That's why I believe when Spock says "I do not know" I don't think he doesn't know he implanted a new sub-routine, I think he doesn't know how he was able to implant it.

 

[trampledamage]

What's worse, the new Kirk didn't even bother to be subtle about it. He didn't reprogram the scenario to simply give him a slight advantage in which he could use some kind of ingenious tactic to win. He just wiped out the shields, acting like a jerk, ate an apple, and pretended his hand was a revolver, all apparently under the assumption that no one would figure out he cheated so blantantly.

My read of the scene is completely the opposite. Kirk did what he did to make it blatantly obvious he'd re-written the scenario. To do anything else would be cheating.

To change the scenario to make it slightly easier is cheating - what Kirk did was make the test irrelevant.

After all, there was no way to win the original scenario, so if you don't believe in the no-win scenario, then the test is invalid, and if it's invalid then trying to "tweak" it is pointless.

This is the point Kirk is trying to make.

Even worse, the new Spock acted bewildered at how he could have "won" the scenario after watching him do exactly that.

Unfortunately I think the new Spock was making the common mistake of the brilliant, which is thinking no-one can beat them, so he's flabbergasted by what he's seeing.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I thought Spock was going to shake his fist and yell "MAHONEYYY!!!!!".

The scene needed something, it just felt like Kirk yanking the chains of authority because he's a prick not because of some deeper conviction.

 

[Bobatiel]

Abrams quite grasped the nuances behind Kirk cheating on the test. In this movie, he apparently did it to rebel because he was tired of no one ever passing it. He was just an arrogant brat who cheated because he could.

I didn't get that from the movie at all.

Kirk just doesn't lose, or doesn't like to lose. That's Kirk.

I thought it was just fine and consistent with JTK.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

I think those people who think it made him look like a brat need to re-assess what a brat is because they obviously don't know and clearly have a hard time reading people from their actions and persona.

 

[BriGuy]

One of the biggest (and only) problems I really had with Star Trek was the entire Kobayashi Maru subplot.

I don't think Abrams quite grasped the nuances behind Kirk cheating on the test. In this movie, he apparently did it to rebel because he was tired of no one ever passing it. He was just an arrogant brat who cheated because he could. And when called on it, he didn't try to argue the valid point the original Kirk had. He did it, and I paraphrase, because he "didn't believe in no-win scenarios."

The whole point of original Kirk's cheating wasn't simply because he didn't believe in no-win scenarios. It was because he firmly believed that as a captain facing a no-win scenario, you had to think outside the box and do whatever was in your power to do to win. Which is exactly what he did. And it's exactly why he was (eventually) applauded for it.

What's worse, the new Kirk didn't even bother to be subtle about it. He didn't reprogram the scenario to simply give him a slight advantage in which he could use some kind of ingenious tactic to win. He just wiped out the shields, acting like a jerk, ate an apple, and pretended his hand was a revolver, all apparently under the assumption that no one would figure out he cheated so blantantly. Even worse, the new Spock acted bewildered at how he could have "won" the scenario after watching him do exactly that.

I'm just disappointed that it was such a wasted opportunity and, for me, it was easily one of the weakest character moments in the film that forever tarnishes the tactical brilliance of Kirk.

Still enjoyed the rest of the movie immensely, mind you. Just not this part.

Adult Kirk's take on the test, what he did and why he did it will invariably be different from those same elements at the time he did it.

At the time, he was young and cocky, more so in this timeline. As an older, more mature man, he'll look back on it differently.

 

[Cakes488]

I loved it.

I thought the way it was played was perfect. I don't think Kirk would've been the type to covertly reprogram it so it still looked like a struggle to win the simulation; that would've been dishonest. His point was that, as you said, the fundamental test had to be approached from another direction, and if the simulation itself was invalid, what the hell would be the point in taking it seriously at all?

His goal was to as blatantly as possible demonstrate that the test was flawed and he was inventive enough to think outside the box. I don't think he ever expected no one would notice!

I heard about all the deleted scenes that went along with this -- it would of been a lot better had they been included. Also if they included shit like this then it would of focused more on the characters....I mean if I were going to Trek for the first time...we barely got to "know them"....

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The writers here recognized the basic problem with Kirk cheating on a test - basically, if he does it in such a way as to avoid being caught, he's a dick who we cannot respect - and portrayed his defiance of the whole notion of the thing excellently. This is one of my favorite sequences in the movie.

Spock is bemused by how Kirk could have beaten the test because of his own pride and his underestimation of the kid on the other side of the window who's playing cowboys and indians with the simulator viewscreen. That Kirk cheated is obvious - and ought to be - that he could have hacked Spock's program is unthinkable. And of course, in Spock's chilly self-isolation the notion that someone would have chosen to help Kirk does not immediately occur to him.

 

[Franklin]

The writers here recognized the basic problem with Kirk cheating on a test - basically, if he does it in such a way as to avoid being caught, he's a dick who we cannot respect - and portrayed his defiance of the whole notion of the thing excellently. This is one of my favorite sequences in the movie.

Spock is bemused by how Kirk could have beaten the test because of his own pride and his underestimation of the kid on the other side of the window who's playing cowboys and indians with the simulator viewscreen. That Kirk cheated is obvious - and ought to be - that he could have hacked Spock's program is unthinkable. Of course, in his chilly self-isolation the notion that someone would have chosen to help Kirk does not immediately occur to him.

Good analysis. I'm obviously going to have to rethink this scene when I see it again. But Spock in his "chilly self-isolation?" Hey, look at your avatar.

 

[Jeyl]

I don't know. If I was a cadet who was training in this simulation, I wouldn't come up with the conclusion that we beat the no-win scenario, I'd say that the whole program crashed and that resulted in things acting out of the ordinary. Nothing Kirk did in the simulation even hinted that what was about to happen happened. It just did. So not only is Kirk acting like an incompetent rookie who refuses to understand how things work, he does it in a way that not only disrespects every other cadet in the simulation, but also the ones who designed the bloody thing.

It's like if a student cheated on a essay he/she was supposed to write about a book they just read, and when they were caught, they'd simply say the book is useless because they don't believe it will have any relevance in their life, just like what Kirk thought about the no-win scenario. And what do we do in the end? We turn this kid into the teacher of the class.

 

[Tikkun]

I don't know. If I was a cadet who was training in this simulation, I wouldn't come up with the conclusion that we beat the no-win scenario, I'd say that the whole program crashed and that resulted in things acting out of the ordinary. Nothing Kirk did in the simulation even hinted that what was about to happen happened. It just did. So not only is Kirk acting like an incompetent rookie who refuses to understand how things work, he does it in a way that not only disrespects every other cadet in the simulation, but also the ones who designed the bloody thing.

It's like if a student cheated on a essay he/she was supposed to write about a book they just read, and when they were caught, they'd simply say the book is useless because they don't believe it will have any relevance in their life, just like what Kirk thought about the no-win scenario. And what do we do in the end? We turn this kid into the teacher of the class.

I agree. To go from a penalty for cheating to a commendation for original thinking would need a lot more thought behind how and why this was done. As it was portrayed, it seemed a rather juvenile act of rebellion - not a defining stand.