The Expansive Expanse

[MAGolding]

Memory Alpha says two interesting things about The Delphic Expanse in the third season of Star Trek: Enterprise.

The Delphic Expanse was a region of space approximately fifty light years away from Earth. (ENT: "The Expanse")

Nearly two thousand light years across, the Expanse was riddled with a web of dangerous spatial anomalies and was surrounded by a dense layer of thermobaric clouds, which made navigation extremely hazardous for starships. In some regions of the Expanse, the laws of physics did not function reliably. Artificially created by transdimensional beings using a vast number of massive spheres, the Delphic Expanse ceased to exist in 2154, when the Earth starship Enterprise NX-01 destroyed them. (ENT: "The Expanse", "The Xindi", "Zero Hour")

Obviously if the Delphic Expanse is almost 2,000 light years in diameter the center of the Delphic Expanse should be almost 1,000 light years inside it. So the center of hte Delphic Expanse can not be about 50 light years from Earth. So it must be the edge of the Delphic expanse which is approximately 50 light yeas from Earth.

"In "The Expanse":

SOVAL: Do you know where these co-ordinates he gave you are?
ARCHER: At warp five, about a three month trip.
SOVAL: They're inside the Delphic Expanse.
ARCHER: What's that?
SOVAL: A region of space nearly two thousand light years across. Vulcan ships have entered it, but only a few have returned.
ARCHER: Sounds like your talking about the Bermuda Triangle.
SOVAL: There has been reports of fierce and dangerous species, unexplained anomalies. In some regions, even the laws of physics don't apply. Twenty years ago, a Klingon vessel emerged from the Expanse. Every crewmen on board has been anatomically inverted, their bodies splayed open, and they were still alive. You'd be more than foolish to pursue this course of action.

If warp five is the TOS warp scale warp five, it is about 125 times the sped of light. Since there are about 90 days in three months, that would be about 90 X 125 light days, or 11,250 light days, or 30.800821 light years. Or it is about 1/4 year at 125 times the speed of light, or about 31.25 light years.

At TOS warp scale warp factor five, a journey of about 50 light years shuld take about 0.4 years or about 146.1 days.

Later in "The Expanse":

ARCHER: Soval agreed to let us take her back to Vulcan if it's all right with you.
FORREST: It's not that far out of your way. How's that last refit team doing?

So their route to the Delphic Expanse takes them near Vulcan. The Delphic expanse, being almost 2,000 light years wide, should be beyond Vulcan.

Later they are attacked by Klingons:

ARCHER: Go to four five. If we can make it to Vulcan space before they get their engines back, they'll think twice about giving us any more trouble.

Later, enroute to Vulcan:

T'POL: Ensign Mayweather says we're two days from Vulcan.

Since Vulcan is later shown to be 16 to 17 light years from Earth, if the trip from EarIh to Vulcan takes at least 2 days at warp 4.5, warp 4.5 must be slower than 3,104.625 times the speed of light. Warp factor 4.5 in the TOS scale is 91.125 times the speed of light and so it shoudl take at least 61.13 days.

Later, when they reach the Edge of the Delphic Expanse:

Captain's starlog, supplemental. We've been travelling at warp five for seven weeks. The crew is anxious to begin our mission.

Seven weeks or 49 days at TOS scale warp factor five would cover about 6,125 light days or 16.769 light years.

The episode "The Xindi" opens with:

HUMANOID: It could simply be a coincidence.
REPTILIAN: You're being naive. Their planet is fifty light years away. It is not a coincidence.

So maybe the edge of the Delphic Expanse is not 50 light years from Earth, but the Xindi council chamber, somewhere within the vast Expanse, is 50 light years from Earth.

A region of space surrounded by "thermobaric clouds" which seem to be very visible in visible light and would cerainly be very visible in some wavelengths of electromagnetic radiaiton should be very spectacular in whatever wavelengths it is visible in if it is only 50 light years away and almost 2,000 light years in diameter.

According to my rough calculations, a sphere 1,000 light years (LY) in diameter would have to be 206,264980 light years distant to have an angular diameter of only one arc second. A sphere 2,000 LY in diameter would have to be 412,529,960 LY distant to have angular diameter of only 1 arc second.

According to my rough calculations, a sphere 1,000 light years (LY) in diameter would have to be 3,437,749.6 light years distant to have an angular diameter of only one arc minute. A sphere 2,000 LY in diameter would have to be 6,875,499.2 LY distant to have angular diameter of only 1 arc minute

The galactic disc of our Milky Way Galaxy is about 1,000 LY thick, and about 100,000 LY in diameter. The Sun is about 25,000 LY from the center of the galaxy. Since the Delphic Expanse and every other world reached in should be within the galactic disc of our Milky Way Galaxy that puts a limit on how far away the expanse can be and how small it can look from Earth.

If the center of the Delphic Expanse could be as far 75,000 LY from Earth, the expanse with a diameter of 1,000 LY would have an angular diameter of 0.76 of a degree, and if it had a diameter of 2,000 LY it would have an angular diameter of 1.52 degree. The Sun and the Moon have angular diameters of about 0.5 of a degree as seen from Earth.

Suppose that the nearer edge of the Delphic Expanse was only 500 LY from Earth. With a diameter of 1,000 LY the central point would be 1,000 LY from Earth. According to my rough calculations the Delphic Expanse would have an angular diameter of about 57.3 degreees as seen from Earth. If the nearer rim of the Delphic Expanse is 500 LY from Earth and it is 2,000LY in diameter, the center of it should be 1,500 LY from Earth, and thus the Delphic expanse shoud have an angular diameter ofabout 76.39 degrees.

Of course if the Delphic Expanse was 1,000 to 2,000 LY from Earth and only a few tens o f LY from earth as is indicated, it would spread out over almost 180 degrees of arc as seen from Earth, close to an entire hemisphere of the sky.

If the thermobaric clouds at the rim of the Delphic Expanse emitted or reflected any wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation (as all normal matter must) the Delphic Expanse should be a very spectacular feature in those wavelengths as seen from Earth.

And if the thermobaric clouds at the rim of the Delphic Expanse were opague to any wavelengths of visible light, (as all nurmal matter must be) our maps of the sky in those wavelengths wuold show a vast back circle in the sky where no light from those wavelengths reached earth.

The thermobaric clouds were depicted as being both visible, and opaque in visible wavelengths of light in the special effects in "The Expanse".

If that is correct in the fictional universe of Star Trek Enterprise. then while the Expanse exists people on Earth will be unable to see a large percentage of the stars which are seen from Earth today. This implies that the Exampse must have reached its size in the era of Enterprise within a century or two, between now in AD 2022 and the year 2153 in an unspecified caendar era.

Or since I believe that Star Trek is in an alternate universe, the Delphic Expanse could have been growing for many centuries before our year of AD 2022, but in Star Trek's universe instead of in our universe.

If TOS is a sequel in the same timeline to Star Trek Enterprise stars mentioned in TOS could have been hidden in the Delpic Expanse up until the Delphic Expanse was destroyed in 2154 and reverted to being normal space, revealling the stars within it.

But all of the proper names of stars mentioned in every era of TOS were given at different dates in Earth history. Some were given by ancient Greeks,and some by medieval Arabs,for example. While the Bayer designations of stars, widely used in various Star Trek productions, were given for northern consellations in 1603 and within a century or two for more southern constellations.

So for each star with an Earth name or Bayer designationin Star Trek, there was a period of centuries or millennia when it must have been visible from Earth, and a period of centuries when it might have been hidden from Earth by the Delphic Expanse.

For example, in "The City on the Edge of Forever" when KIrk was in about the year AD 1930:

KIRK: We served together.
EDITH: And you don't want to talk about it? Why? Did you do something wrong? Are you afraid of something? Whatever it is, let me help.
KIRK: Let me help. A hundred years or so from now, I believe, a famous novelist will write a classic using that theme. He'll recommend those three words even over I love you.
EDITH: Centuries from now? Who is he? Where does he come from er, where will he come from?
KIRK: Silly question. Want to hear a silly answer?
EDITH: Yes.
KIRK: A planet circling that far left star in Orion's belt. See?

The "far left Side in Orion's Belt" is Alnitak.

Alnitak is a triple star system in the constellation of Orion. It has the designations ζ Orionis, which is Latinised to Zeta Orionis and abbreviated Zeta Ori or ζ Ori, and 50 Orionis, abbreviated 50 Ori. The system is located at a distance of several hundred parsecs from the Sun and is one of the three main stars of Orion's Belt along with Alnilam and Mintaka.

It has a distance of 1,260 LY plus or minus 180 LY, about 1,080 to 1,440 LY. Anyway, we know that the Delphic Expanse had not yet expanded to cover Orion's betl (if it ever did) by about 1930 in th alernate universe of Star Trek.

I note that if the Delphic Expanise was increasing its radius by more than 1 LY per year, or even in a significant fraction of the speed of light, People on Earth, Vulcan, Andor, and Tellar, for example, should have been very worried by the rate at which it was expanding toward them. The thermobaric clouds could do considerage damage if they hit a world at a signficant fraction of hte speed of light. And after survivors of expeditions into it told of the horrors they experienced there, the expansion of the Expanse would be even more terrifying.

So I find it rather hard to believe that Captain Archer had to be told what the Delphic Expanse was, instead of saying "Oh no! Not the Delphic Expanse!" as soon as it was mentoned to him.

As far as I know, famed science fiction writer Isaac Asimov was the first to use the term "galactography" for the galactic equivalent of Earthly geography, in his novel The Stars Like Dust (1951). And naturally, he made an error in galactography in it, depicting the Horsehead Nebula as being many times larger than it actually is.

And it seems like an interesting problem in galactography to figure out where the Delphic Expanse could be be in space relative to Earth and to other stars mentioned in various Star Trek productions.

 

[MAGolding]

So now I will try to make a mental map of the real stars mentioned in Star Trek: Enterprise, to give an idea where the Delphic Expanse could or could not be.

I copied a list of real stars mentioned in Star Trek: Enterprise, taking it from the list of real stars in all of Star Trek that is in the Ex Astris Scientia site. https://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/bayer-names.htm

I took their distances and their equatorial corrdinates from their Wikipedia articles. And I used this site

http://www.robertmartinayers.org/tools/coordinates.html

to convert their equitorial coordinates into modern galactic coordinates. I think that galactic orordinates are more useful for science fictiton purposes. Galacticc coordinates use the equitorial plane of the galaxy as the equator. The modern Galactic coordinates use the direction of the center of the galaxy and the supermassive black hole Sagittarius A* as the zero of galactic longitude.

You should picture a map of the galactic disc as seen from above, about 100,000 Light years (LY) in diameter, with the central point of the galaxy in the center. I think that most astronomers orient their galacitc maps with the dot representing the Sun and Earth directly below the center of the galaxy and about halfway out to the rim, and I guess that we might as well picture it that way.

Since all of the stars mentioned are less than 1,000 from Earth (4 percent of the distance to the center) the center should outside the frame of a map showing those stars, but a line can point from Earth to the center of the galaxy.

The direction to the center of the galaxy is galacitic longitude 0, toward the top of the map. Galactic longitude increases in a counterclockswise direction, with longitude 90 directly left of the Sun, longitude 180 at the bottom, opposite to the glactic center, longitude 270 directly right of the Sun, and increasing untile longitude 360 is the same as longitude 0, pointing to the galactic center.

The coordinates and distances of stars can be used to calcuate their positions in 3 D space.

Here is a list of stars mentioned in Star Trek: Enterprise with their coordinates and distances..

Aldebaran (Alpha Tauri) Enterprise "Anomaly" galactic longitude 181.1291 latitude -20.0595 distance 65.3 plus or minus 1.0 LY

Antares (Alpha scorpii) Enterprise "The Breach".galactic longitude 351.9472 latitude 15.0643 distance about 550 LY

Orion Enterprise "Horizon", "Borderland" "Bound", "In a mirror Darkly part 2", "Demons"/ Orion is a consellation, not a star, so those mentons are not very helpful.

Procyon (Alpha Canis Minoris) Enterprise "Azati Prime" galactic longitude 213.7023 latitue 13.0194 distance 11.46 plus or minus 0.05 LY

Regulus (Alpha Leonis) "Two Days and Two Nights", "Doctor's Orders" "Stratagem" galactic longitude 226.3602 latitude 48.9137 distance 79.3 plus or minus 0.7 lY

Rigel (Beta Orionis) Enterprise "Broken Bow", "These are the Voyages" galactic longitude 209.2412 latitude -25.2453 distance 863 LY

Vega (Alpha Lyrae) "Broken Bow", "Future Tense", Twilight" galactic longitude 67.4482 latitude 19.2372 distance 25.04 plus or minus 0.07 LY

Alpha Centauri Enterprise "Twilight" galactic longitude 315.7315 latitude -0.6785 distance 4.37 LY

Ceti Alpha (if it is Alpha Ceti) "Enterprise "Twilight" Galactic longitude 173.3160 latitude -45.5957 distance 249 plus or minus 8 LY

Tau Ceti Enterprise "Shadows of Pjem", "in a Mirror darkly" galactic longitude 173.1008 latitude -73.4397 distance 11.912 plus or minus 0.007 LY

What do the epiosode say about those stars?

Aldebaran (Alpha Tauri) Enterprise "Anomaly" galactic longitude 181.1291 latitude -20.0595 distance 65.3 plus or minus 1.0 LY

In "Anomaly", when in the Delphic Expanse:

PHLOX: They're not meant to be taken for extended periods. There is another treatment that might be helpful.
TUCKER: All right, what have you got?
PHLOX: Aldebaran mud leeches.
TUCKER: What am I supposed to do with them?
PHLOX: Place one on your chest and one on your abdomen an hour before going to bed. Their secretions act as a natural sedative. Oh, please be careful to sleep on your back. If you roll over, you might anger them.

Phlox hasn't had time to become familiar with them since entering the Expanse, so Aldebaran must be outside the Expanse.

Antares (Alpha scorpii) Enterprise "The Breach".galactic longitude 351.9472 latitude 15.0643 distance about 550 LY

In "The Breach" Dr. Phlox treats an injured alien, who is apprently an Antarean:

PHLOX: Our two species have a complicated history. We've gone to war with the Antarans on several occasions.
ARCHER: Recently?
PHLOX: On the contrary. It's been three hundred years since our last conflict.
ARCHER: And there's still bad blood between you?
PHLOX: They've been particularly bitter disputes.

But memory Alpha doesn't connect Antarans with Antares. Whether Antarans are Antareans, they certainly live outside the Delphic Expanse.

Procyon (Alpha Canis Minoris) Enterprise "Azati Prime" galactic longitude 213.7023 latitue 13.0194 distance 11.46 plus or minus 0.05 LY

Procyon is only mentoned in "Azati Prime", except for a star chart claiming that Andoria is in the Procyon system. In "Azati Prime" Daniels shows Archer a space battle against the Sphere Builders in a possible future.

DANIELS: You're on Enterprise. Enterprise J to be exact, a distant relative of your ship. We're four hundred years in the future.
(There's a battle going on outside in a murky purple haze.)
ARCHER: I'm going to assume you brought me here for a good reason.
DANIELS: Look out there. It extends fifty thousand light years in all directions, and it is growing.
ARCHER: I've seen it before.
DANIELS: I know, in the Expanse.

DANIELS: It's getting harder and harder to surprise you, Captain. (the ship shakes from an impact) I've brought you to a monumental moment in history, the battle of Procyon Five, where the Federation engaged the Sphere Builders.

If the Expanse does extend 50,000 light years n all directions 400 years into that alternate future it would have engulfed Earth and all the planets nearby, and there would not be much of our galaxy left outside of the Expanse. Procyon Five should be inside the Expanse, and not outside looking at it. Very strange.

Maybe the Sphere Builders expanded the Expanse in a direction away from the Earth, and moved the center of the Expanse farther and farther away, so that it remained spheriodal or disc like in shape.

[Added 09-22-2022]

In that case how much of the galaxy would be occupied by the expanse when it has a diameter or a radius of 50,000 light years would depend on where the new center of it is Certainly a larger or smaller part of the galactic disc would be inside the Expnse,and a larger or smaller part of the galactic disc would be outside of the Expanse, depending on what direction from Earth the center of the expanse was when it achieved a diameter or a radius of 50,00 light years.

And since at the position of Earth and nearby regions the thickness of the galactic disc is conventionally given as only about 1,000 light years, a spherical Expanse would stick out over 20,000 light years "above" and "below" the galactic disc if Daniels meant it had a diameter of 50,000 light years., And it would stick out over 45,000 light years "above" and "below" the galactic disc if Daniels meant it had a radus of 50,000 light years.

Either way a spherical Expanse would stick out far into the halo of the galaxy where stars and planets are far and few between. Most of the volume of the Expanse would be in the halo, with thinly scattered stars.

Most of the technology of the Sphere Builders seems to use "normal " matter and not the much more numerous dark matter, which is probably thinly scattered in the galactic halo but probably more common than "normal" matter out there.

One) If the Sphere Buiilders need stars and planets it seems very wastefull for them to extend the Expanse out into the galactic Halo.

Two) Maybe the Sphere Builders can use the galactic halo as well as the galactic disc and it doesn't make much difference to them. In that case it woudn't be wastefull for them to make the Expanse stick out into the galactic halo.

Three) Maybe the Sphere Builders prefer almost empty space in the halos of galaxies and even in interglactic space. In that case it would have been really foolish of htem to have part of the Expanse within the galactic disc of the Milky Way Galaxy to warn inhabitants of their intrusion into our universe.

In that case it would have been much wiser to start the Expanse in a void.

Cosmic voids (also known as dark space) are vast spaces between filaments (the largest-scale structures in the universe), which contain very few or no galaxies. The cosmological evolution of the void regions differs drastically from the evolution of the Universe as a whole: there is a long stage when the curvature term dominates, which prevents the formation of galaxy clusters and massive galaxies. Hence, although even the emptiest regions of voids contain more than ~15% of the average matter density of the Universe, the voids look almost empty for an observer. [1] Voids typically have a diameter of 10 to 100 megaparsecs (30 to 300 million light years); particularly large voids, defined by the absence of rich superclusters, are sometimes called supervoids. They were first discovered in 1978 in a pioneering study by Stephen Gregory and Laird A. Thompson at the Kitt Peak National Observatory.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Void_(astronomy)

If the Sphere Builders could live and flourish in an Expanse created in a comsic void, they coud enlarge the diameter of that Expanse to millions of light years before the edge of their expanse encounters a galaxy. And then if their expanse could be as denslly populated as a galaxy, they would outnumber the inhabitants of that galaxy by billions of times, So it would be easy to launch a sneak attack to wipe out all the natives of that galaxy before they knew what hit them. And then keep on expanding their Expanse.

They could expand their Expanse to a diameter of tens or hundreds of millions of light years before reaching the edges of a large void and encounting, tens, hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, etc. galaxies at the edges of the void and having to fight their people atl at once. I can imagine there might be trllions of space battleships in a minor skirmish in such a war.

So the people of the Star Trek universe better hope that the Sphere Builders have to use stars and planets within galaxies for their purposes and so will always give themslves away soon after they start up an expanse and thus encounter resistance soon after starting while they are still relatively weak and easy to defeat.

[end of addition 09-22-2022]

[Added 09-25-2022. Some sources claim that the Andorian homeworld Andoria is the Procyon system.. But the episode "Kir'Shara" makes that seem highly improbable. end of 09-25-22 addtion.]

Regulus (Alpha Leonis) "Two Days and Two Nights", "Doctor's Orders" "Stratagem" galactic longitude 226.3602 latitude 48.9137 distance 79.3 plus or minus 0.7 LY

At Risa in "Two Days and Two Nights" while treating Travis:

PHLOX: Ah, yes, yes. It's definitely being caused by an antigenic compound in his system. We'll need Regulan blood worms.
TRAVIS: What?
PHLOX: They're excellent at filtering toxins.

In Stratagem", inside the Delphic Expanse:

PHLOX: Oh, yes. I've treated patients with Regulan bloodworms for years. There should be no side-effects aside from a thoroughly cleansed lymphatic system. Please try not to injure it. They're difficult to replace.

So these show that Regulus is outside of the Delphic Expanse.

And in "Kir'Shara" Soval warns the Andorians of an attack planned by the Vulcan High Command:

SHRAN: We keep a very close eye on your fleet. We would know if the High Command were preparing to attack.
SOVAL: V'Las has been assembling ships near Regulus, beyond the range of your listening stations.

So Regulus should be off the direct line from Vulcan (presumably at 40 Eridani, and the Andorian homeworld, so the Andorians don't detect the fleet there, but not too far off the direct line, or it would be useless to gathera fleet there. So presumably Andoria should be somewhere beyond Regulus on a line from 40 Eridania to Regulus. Which makes it highly unlikely that Andoria could be a planet of Procyon. And this also shows that Regulus was outside the Delphic Expanse if it is between Vulcan and Andoria.

Rigel (Beta Orionis) Enterprise "Broken Bow", "These are the Voyages" galactic longitude 209.2412 latitude -25.2453 distance 863 LY

In "Broken Bow" there is a mission to Kronos, the Klingon home planet.

ARCHER: Four days there, four days back, then she's gone. In the meantime, we're to extend her every courtesy.

Four days at warp 4.5. if that is 4 days at TOS scle warp 4.5 ithey should travelt364.5 light days or about 0.9979 light years, which makes Kronos terribly close to Earth..

Later in "Broken Bow":

ARCHER: Jelik, Sarin, Rigel, Tholia. Anything sound familiar? T'Pol?
T'POL: Rigel is a planetary system approximately fifteen light years from our present position.

Anyway Rigel is not in the delphic Expansie in "Broken Bow".

To be continued later:

 

[Oddish]

While I can get a word in edgewise, am I the only one who thinks it's a little much that one heavily damaged starship belonging to a power that has only just entered deep space... can permanently destroy a device powerful enough to create a space anomaly 2,000 light years across?

 

[Nerys Myk]

While I can get a word in edgewise, am I the only one who thinks it's a little much that one heavily damaged starship belonging to a power that has only just entered deep space... can permanently destroy a device powerful enough to create a space anomaly 2,000 light years across?

First day as a Star Trek fan?

 

[Oddish]

Give or take about four decades.

 

[somebuddyX]

The expanse being 50000 LY across in "Azati Prime" bothered me because I just couldn't believe the Klingons let alone the rest of the galaxy would let it slide their home turf being turned to mush for 400 years. So based on nothing I pretend that in that future the Sphere Builders just turned on all their spheres in say the 26th century and built a huge expanse and proceeded to gets their asses whooped by Enterprise-J and it's mates. That way there was a normal but different progression of time in which a Federation and an NCC-1701 were still launched and and other history happens then WHAM expanse time. But the Sphere Builders saw this future and hit Undo and launched their spheres early. I'm sure this doesn't line up but I prefer it this way. I honestly, even if at first glance I like the look at the "Azati Prime" future, would have preferred it had never appeared and Archer and Degra's relationship had been built on genuinely finding common ground rather than some macguffin from the future. It would have been faith of the heart.

 

[MAGolding]

While I can get a word in edgewise, am I the only one who thinks it's a little much that one heavily damaged starship belonging to a power that has only just entered deep space... can permanently destroy a device powerful enough to create a space anomaly 2,000 light years across?

That does seem very improbable.

However, to make it a bit less improbable - and every little bit that someone can think of helps in such a case - the Sphere Buliders built a bunch of spheres. It wasn't just one single sphere which maintained the strange conditions in the entire Delphic Expanse.

The Delphic Expanse spheres were a series of artificially-created spherical objects that were scattered around the Delphic Expanse. The spheres, each one nineteen kilometers in diameter, generated massive amounts of gravimetric energy and were collectively responsible for the web of spatial anomalies which constituted the Expanse. Each sphere was surrounded by a cloaking barrier which kept it hidden from outside observers. According to the Xindi-Primate Degra, the Xindi knew of seventy-eight spheres, at last count. (ENT: "The Forgotten")

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Delphic_Expanse_sphere

So one sphere could create a large volume of altered space, but a bunch of spheres working together could probably create much more altered space than the space produced by one sphere multiplied by the number of spheres. Adding more spheres to the network increase its volume geometrically instead of arithmatically.

And so all of the spheres had to be linked together to work together. And thus destroying one sphere somehow caused a chain reaction to destroy all of the spheres and return the Expanse to normal space conditions.

The Sphere Builders don't seem to have had much tactical or strategic sense and seem to have assumed that everything would work perfectly and there was no need for precautions or defenses in the design of their spheres. Or possibly the designers of the spheres planned to install defenses and precautions against chain reactions but budget cuts decreed by an over confident government prevented such devices from being installed.

Maybe a construction unit was scheduled to begin installing such precautionary devices on Tuesday.

 

[MAGolding]

I haved added a discussison of the 50,000 lIght year Expanse in "Azati Prime" to my post # 2 above, on the morning of 09-22-22.

 

[F. King Daniel]

You lose me the minute you mention how long it "should" take to get from A to B. "Broken Bow" had them get to Kronos in a few days. TOS spoke about speed and distance in a way that would have crossed the galaxy in a month or two.

Plus, season 3 was a hastily constructed bolt-on to try and rescue the show, they were making it up as they went along (admittedly they did a slightly better job of it than Discovery season two, but the initial attack on Earth still makes zero sense, it only tipped off their enemy)

 

[at Quark's]

You lose me the minute you mention how long it "should" take to get from A to B. "Broken Bow" had them get to Kronos in a few days. TOS spoke about speed and distance in a way that would have crossed the galaxy in a month or two.

Plus, season 3 was a hastily constructed bolt-on to try and rescue the show, they were making it up as they went along (admittedly they did a slightly better job of it than Discovery season two, but the initial attack on Earth still makes zero sense, it only tipped off their enemy)

Yep. Great dramatic start of the season, I'll give them that, but in terms of Kzinti and Sphere Builder strategy it was beyond silly.

 

[somebuddyX]

I like the idea it was either Xindi arrogance about their achievements and superiority over humanity that they tested it on Earth, which is a bit shaky, but when you look at human arrogance leading to our own idiocy, I could see it happening. Or some one felt guilty or wanted Earth to be warned and make a stand against the Xindi and so for that reason targeted Earth. Going with that I thought actually that doesn't make a lot of sense since Dolim was in charge and he chose the target and he recruited the men. But what if a rogue Sphere Builder saw what it's own species was up to and all the death and how they were constantly getting beat down by humanity and it's friends and thought "You know what, maybe we should just stay in out weird white non-descript realm where at least I'm not dead. I watched "Harbinger" and that guy disintegrated! If I stay here I'm fine." And they pushed for Earth to be the test site. Unless they're all a hive mind or telepaths or something, I can't remember, in which case forget about it.

 

[MAGolding]

As I remember, one of the fourth season episodes involved rumors (probably part of a Romulan plot) that one of the long established powers near Earth (vulcan, Andoria, and Tellar) was planning a sneak attack on one of the others, and that an invasion fleet was massing at a specific star. Since those powers had known about each other long before the Expanse was restored to normal condideitons, they should all have been outside the Expanse, and the star where the invasion fleet was rumored to be massng should also have been outside the Expanse.

So the star where the invasion fleet was supposed to be massing would have been outside the Expanse and so would be useful in showing where the Expanse wasn't and thus limiting where it could have been.

Added 09-25-2022. I found it. In "Kir-Shara"

SHRAN: We keep a very close eye on your fleet. We would know if the High Command were preparing to attack.
SOVAL: V'Las has been assembling ships near Regulus, beyond the range of your listening stations.

It is already shown that Regulus (Alpha Leonis) was never part of the Delphic expanse.

But it is useful to know that the Vulcans, probably with their homeword at 40 Eridani, mass a fleet to invade Andorian space at Regulus. No doubt Regulus was off the direct invasion route, so the Andorians would not be monitoring Regulus, but not too far off it o rit would be useless.

Thus the Andorian homeworld should be somewhere more or less beyond Regulus on the line from 40 Eridani to Regulus. Which makes it highly unlikely that Andoria, the Andorian homeworld, would be at Procyon as some sources claim.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Procyon

 

[MAGolding]

Here is a continuation of my post number 2 above, giving the locations of other stars mention in Star trek: Enterprise which are outside of the Delphic Expanse. I have already lost two drafts of this post.

Vega (Alpha Lyrae) "Broken Bow", "Future Tense", Twilight" galactic longitude 67.4482 latitude 19.2372 distance 25.04 plus or minus 0.07 LY

In "Future Tense" a mysterius human body is found in a strange vehicle a hundred light years (LY) from Earth:

FORREST [on monitor]: I wish there was. It's possible the ship you found was launched from Vega Colony, but they're a long way behind you. The Earth Cargo Authority may have more information.
ARCHER: Phlox has sent a request to Doctor Cochrane's family. They're transmitting his genetic profile.
FORREST [on monitor]: A hundred light years from Earth. You might have solved the greatest missing person case of the century.

In "Twilight", T'Pol tells Archer, who lost his memory, that:

T'POL: Destroyed. They didn't stop at your homeworld. They attacked every human outpost they could find. Mars, Alpha Centauri, Vega colony, all were destroyed.

These show that Vega was outside the Expanse.

Alpha Centauri Enterprise "Twilight" galactic longitude 315.7315 latitude -0.6785 distance 4.37 LY

In "Twilight", T'Pol tells Archer, who lost his memory, that:

T'POL: Destroyed. They didn't stop at your homeworld. They attacked every human outpost they could find. Mars, Alpha Centauri, Vega colony, all were destroyed.

This shows that Alpha Centauri was outside the Expanse.

Ceti Alpha (if it is Alpha Ceti) "Enterprise "Twilight" Galactic longitude 173.3160 latitude -45.5957 distance 249 plus or minus 8 LY

In "Twilight", T'Pol tells Archer, who lost his memory, that:

T'POL: We're on the fifth planet in the Ceti Alpha system. It's far from the Expanse.

This shows that Ceti Alpha, whichmight be Alpha Ceti, was outside the Expanse.

Tau Ceti Enterprise "Shadows of P'Jem", "in a Mirror darkly" galactic longitude 173.1008 latitude -73.4397 distance 11.912 plus or minus 0.007 LY

In "Shadows of P'jem", on the planet Coridan:

SOPEK: Your presence here is a violation of the Tau Ceti Accords.

Since the Vulcan and Andorians worlds are all outside of the Expanse, Tau Ceti must also be outside the Expanse.

40 Eridani galactic longitude 200.7528 latitude -38.6478 distance 16.333 plus or minus 0.004 LY.

The planet Vulcan is mentioned as being between 16 and 17 light years from Earth in the fourth season episodes "Home" and "Daedalus". In "Home",on the planet Vulcan, Tucker says:

TUCKER: You're sorry. You brought me sixteen light years just to watch you get married to someone you barely know.

in "Daedalus" in a discussion of more advanced transporter technology:

EMORY: Sub-quantum teleportation. You step on to a transporter on Earth, a few seconds later, you're on Vulcan.
TUCKER: That's over sixteen light years.

Altair is also between 16 and 17 light years from Earth, but "Amok Time" shows that Altair is not the star of Vulcan. Many fans believe that "Home" and "Daedalus" provethelong tanding theory that Vulcan is a planet of 40 Eridani A, though there are a few other stars between 16 and 17 light years from Earth.

Even if 40 Eridani is Vulcan's star, and thus outside the Exampse, it is not very useful to limit the possible galactic longitude of the Expanse, since in "The Expanse" they plan to drop T'pol off at Vulcan on the way to the Expanse.

ARCHER: Soval agreed to let us take her back to Vulcan if it's all right with you.
FORREST: It's not that far out of your way. How's that last refit team doing?

Since the Delphic Expanse is almost 2,000 light years in diameter, it is quite likely that Vulcan's star, probably 40 Eridani, is between the Expanse and Earth.

Achernar (Alpha Eridani) galactic longitude 300.5852 latitude -36.3780 distance 139 plus or minus 3 LY.

If Alpha Ceti and 40 Eridani are a bit speculative, Alpha Eridani is even more so.

In "Two Days and Two Nights", at Risa, Archer says:

Captain's personal log February 18, 2152. It took a while, but we've finally made it to Risa. With any luck, this'll be my last log entry for the next two days.

Later, with a telescope:

KEYLA: What am I looking for?
ARCHER: See the bright blue star at the top?
KEYLA: Is that your sun?
ARCHER: No, look just below. The yellow one. Do you see it?
KEYLA: It's so faint.
ARCHER: It's about ninety light years from here.
KEYLA: You're a long way from home.
ARCHER: Actually, this is the farthest any of my people have ever gone.

So no humans have ever traveled or explored more than about 90 light years form Earth yet, and their farthest colony should be much closer to Earth, possibly the Vega Colony 25 light years from Earth.

In "Zero Hour", soon after the spheres have been destoryed and the Expanse restored to normal space:

T'POL [OC]: Acting Captain's starlog, February 14th, 2152. We're holding position at the coordinates where we were told to meet Degra's vessel. So far there's been no word from them

And in the TOS episode "Wolf in the Fold":

KIRK: Computer. Criminological files. Cases of unsolved mass murders of women since Jack the Ripper.
COMPUTER: Working. 1932. Shanghai, China, Earth. Seven women knifed to death. 1974, Kiev, USSR, Earth. Five women knifed to death. 2105. Martian colonies. Eight women knifed to death. 2156. Heliopolis, Alpha Eridani Two. Ten women knifed to death. There are additional examples.
SPOCK: Captain, those places are aligned directly between Argelius and Earth.
KIRK: Yes. When man moved out into the galaxy, that thing must've moved with him. Computer, identify the proper names Kesla and Beratis.

So KIrk indicates the ten women killed in the large city of Heliopolis on Alpha Eridani II in 2151 were probably colonists from Earth.

So in the four since since "Two Days and Two Nights" the area of Earth exploration seems to have increased in radius by 1.5444444, and in volume by 3.6839463, and the area of Earth colonization increased by a much greater degree - forexample, if Vega was the farthest colony, the area of clonizatinw oud have ncreased by 5.56 and hte volume by 171.187961.

But if Alpha Eridani was in the Expanse, Heliopolis would have been founded and gained a large population to attract the entity in just two years!

Forntuntely,like most dates mentoned in Star Trek, none of those dates have the calndarera they are given in mentioned. Thus we can assumed that different Calendar eras are used in Star trek: Enterprise and in "Wolf in the Fold" and the Heliopolis murders thus can happen decades after Star trek: Enterprise.

Saved. To be contiued later

 

[MAGolding]

Continued from posts numbers 2 and 13.

Altair (Alpha Aquilae) galactic longitude latitude distance 16.73 plus tor minus 0.05 light years (LY)

In "Broken Bow" in sickbay

PHLOX: An Altarian marsupial. Their droppings contain the greatest concentration of regenerative enzymes found anywhere

So Altair should be outside the Expanse.

Deneb (Alpha Cygni) galactic longitude 84.2847 latitude 1.9975 distance 2,615 plus or minus 215 LY.

In "Broken Bow":

TUCKER: The Captain tells me you've been to Trillius Prime.
TRAVIS: It took the fourth, fifth and sixth grades to get there. I've also been to Draylax and both the Denebian moons.

So Deneb should be outside the Expanse. Of course with a distance somewhere between 2,400 and 2,830 LY, Deneb is probably far beyond the farthest part of the Expanse which is "almost 2,000 light years in diameter". The center of the Expanse could be on the the line beween Earth and Deneb and Deneb would still be beyond the Expanse.

The opposite problem is with some of the stars which are closest to Earth, which could have been in front of the Expanse as seen from Earth,. So Alpha Centauri (4.37 LY), TA Procyon (11.46 LY), and Tau Ceti (LY), might be too close to be any guide to where the Expanse is. 4o Ridani (16.33 LY), , Altair (16.73 LY), and even Vega (25.04 LY),

So here are the known stars in arranged in order of galactic longitude. Stars with longitudes from 0 to 180 should be in the Alpha Quadrant and stars with longitudes from 180 to 36 should be in the Beta Quadrant of the TNG era.



Altair (Alpha Aquilae) galactic longitude 47.7441 distance 16.73 plus tor minus 0.05 light years (LY)

Vega (Alpha Lyrae) galactic longitude 67.4482 distance 25.04 plus or minus 0.07 LY

Deneb (Alpha Cygni) galactic longitude 84.2847 latitude 1.9975 distance 2,615 plus or minus 215 LY.

Tau Ceti galactic longitude 173.1008 distance 11.912 plus or minus 0007 LY

Ceti Alpha (if it is Alpha Ceti) Galactic longitude 173.3160 distance 249 plus or minus 8 LY

Aldebaran (Alpha Tauri) galactic longitude 181.1291 distance 65.3 plus or minus 1.0 LY

40 Eridani galactic longitude 200.7528 latitude -38.6478 distance 16.333 plus or minus 0.004 LY.

Rigel (Beta Orionis) galactic longitude 209.2412 distance 863 LY

Procyon (Alpha Canis Minoris) galactic longitude 213.7023 distance 11.46 plus or minus 0.05 LY

Regulus (Alpha Leonis) galactic longitude 226.3602 48.9137 79.3 plus or minus 0.7 lY

Achernar (Alpha Eridani) galactic longitude 300.5852 distance 139 plus or minus 3 LY.

Alpha Centauri galactic longitude 315.7315 distance 4.37 LY

Antares (Alpha Scorpii) .galactic longitude 351.9472 distance about. 550 LY

The greatest longitude differences in those 13 stars are 88.8161 degees between Deneb and Tau Ceit, and 74.225 degrees between Regulus and Achenar, so possibly the direction to the Delphc Expanse would be about halfway through one of those gaps, at longitude 128.69275 or 263.4727.

But Alpha Centauri, Procyon, and Tau Ceti are probably too close to Earth to be guides to the direction to the Expanse. Removing them makes little difference.

Altair, 40 Eridani, and maybe Vega might also be too close to Earth to be clues to the direction to the expanse.

And Deneb is too far to be a good clue to the direction to the Expanse. So Maybe there is a 181.3688 degree.gap between Antares and Alpha Ceti, making the halfway point about 82.6316 degrees.

Altair to Alpha Ceti gives a halfway direciton at 110.53005 degrees.

Vega to Alpha Ceti gives a halfway direction at 120.3821 degrees.

But it is not certain that Ceit Alpha is Allpha Ceti.

In that case Deneb to Aldebaran at 181.1291 gives a halfway direction of 132.7069 degrees.

In that case Vega to Aldebaran at 181.1291 gives a halfway direction of 124.28865 degrees.

In that case Altair to Aldebaran at 181.1291 gives a halfway direction of 114.4366 degrees.

In that case Antares to Aldebaran at 181.1291 gives a halfway direction of 86.53815 degrees.

But if Antarans are not Antareans fron Antares, maybe the gap should be mesured from Achernar at longitude 300.5852.

Achernar to Alpha Ceti at 173.3160 gives a halfway longitude of 56 degrees

Achernar to Aldebaran at 181.1291 gives a halfway longitude of 60.85715 degrees.

Bu tit is possible that Achernar is not relelevant to the longitude of the center of the Expanse. In that case the only three stars relevant would be Aldebaran at 181.1291, Rigel at 209.2412, and Regulus at 226.3602. So the halfway longitude between Regulus and Aldebaran the long way around would be at 23.74465 degrees.

So far the possible longitudes of the center of the Expanse have been calculated at:

23.74465 degrees.

56 degrees

60.85715 degrees.

82.6316 degrees.

110.53005 degrees. (Altair to Alpha Ceti)

114.4366 degrees.

120.3821 degrees. (Vega to Alpha Ceti)

124.28865 degrees.

128.69275 degrees. (Deneb to Tau Ceit)

132.7069 degrees. (Deneb to Aldebaran)

263.4727 degrees (Regulus to Achernar).

Saved. To be continued.

 

[cooleddie74]

 

[Delta Vega]

Madre Mia

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

MAGolding, this thread of yours is not exactly what we expect threads at TrekBBS to be.

You appear to be diligently working through your own personal curiosity, in exhaustive detail, but you have not invited other members to participate in an actual discussion. You have basically turned your musings into a very long blog post. You asked no question in your original post, and have made hardly any effort at actual back-and-forth with others.

This is a discussion board. Several of our stalwart members have made an effort to contribute, but I have the distinct impression that if no one else chimed in at all, you would be content to roll merrily along, posting every thought, musing, and datum that comes to mind, with no need of discussion whatsoever.

Also, your largely solo excursion has resulted in you making several posts in a row, more than once. Please have another look at our board Rules, which say that you should not post more than twice in a row. Considering the length of your posts, I would amend that to not posting more than once in a row, and break up your long posts into shorter, more readable passages, to give other members a chance to digest and respond.

If a big long blog post is your intent, then by all means go off and start a blog, and have at it. But this board is not intended for that. We're here to have discussions. Please invite others to participate with questions, comments on their posts, different perspectives, something that involves your fellow members and their points of view on the topic. Thanks.