The DYSONSPHERE: one of ST's, & Sci-Fi's, greatest mysteries.

[ancient]

It seemed to be the only entrance, but even if it wasn't, they'd have no method of rigging a detector to the entrance so that not just any random alien ship can waltz into their dyson sphere undetected? Talk about leaving the barn door open. I tend to take Data's side here: it appears to be abandoned. If there is any life, it isn't any more advanced than a group of random cavemen or something.

 

[Kaziarl]

None of which decided to help them or ask for ID at the entrance? Oh look, another random alien ship just came into our sphere. Oh look, another one is jamming the door open. Well, that's nice, la la la la...

"The" door? I'd wager it's only one of hundreds of thousands, if not billions. It was barely bigger than the ship, the size of a city at most...

And the civilizations living on the inside need not be in possession of technologies for spotting something as small as a starship. Or, indeed, in possession of the means to operate the doors or observe their operation from afar.

Really, if Data can't spot them, then it would be near-impossible for them to spot Data. Even advanced civilizations have sometimes been unable to spot ships sneaking into their (non-shrouded) star systems until they are at Earth's orbital radius or two.

Timo Saloniemi

yeah, ships come into a star system undetected at times. They approach behind gas giants to hide from sensors. But we're not talking about that. We are talking about a door. From what I recall of the show, they seemed to imply that there was only one door.

However, if there was more then one door, which would be logical, I'm sure they have some kind of system that says which door in which part of the sphere just opened, and signalling that there might be something blocking the door from closing.

 

[Praetor]

Has anyone every constructed a diagram of the Dyson sphere with the star inside it using approximate relative diameters? I think that might give everyone a better visual sense of just how big the thing is.

 

[Forbin]

No, but maybe Ringworld will help a little. This is based on a ringworld of 1AU radius, 1 million miles wide, with a star of 800k miles diameter:

So just use the ring as the equator and picture a sphere that same diameter, and remember that's a fucking SUN in the center.

 

[Praetor]

Shit!

For some reason, that amount of scale did not register with me. Yeah, I can see Data missing a lifeform or two, and vice versa.

 

[Psion]

One million miles wide? WIDE? Look at the width of that ribbon Forbin's helpfully provided ... it's FOUR times wider than the distance from the Earth to the Moon.

 

[Lashmore]

Ok, hope soemone said this before I did...

The original concepts of Dyson Sphere's were not of a solid object completely encompassing a star, but more a series of satellites that are positioned around a sun in a circular formation directly drawing in solar energy.

Others simply took the concept that little bit further.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

None of which decided to help them or ask for ID at the entrance? Oh look, another random alien ship just came into our sphere. Oh look, another one is jamming the door open. Well, that's nice, la la la la...

"The" door? I'd wager it's only one of hundreds of thousands, if not billions. It was barely bigger than the ship, the size of a city at most...

And the civilizations living on the inside need not be in possession of technologies for spotting something as small as a starship. Or, indeed, in possession of the means to operate the doors or observe their operation from afar.

Really, if Data can't spot them, then it would be near-impossible for them to spot Data. Even advanced civilizations have sometimes been unable to spot ships sneaking into their (non-shrouded) star systems until they are at Earth's orbital radius or two.

Timo Saloniemi

yeah, ships come into a star system undetected at times. They approach behind gas giants to hide from sensors. But we're not talking about that. We are talking about a door. From what I recall of the show, they seemed to imply that there was only one door.

However, if there was more then one door, which would be logical, I'm sure they have some kind of system that says which door in which part of the sphere just opened, and signalling that there might be something blocking the door from closing.

Surely they did. And on an object the size of this dyson sphere, I'm sure that the alarms went off in a control center somewhere, as a few hundred bleary eyed technicians were roused from their sleep and rushed to control stations to wonder at that Ancient Door Thing that hasn't opened in millenia, that they don't remember how to open anymore, that they don't remember who put it there or where it goes and have been trying to study for three generations; suddenly the door opens, a blurry object zips through at close to the speed of light and heads off in the direction of the sun and "What the fuck was that?!"

Couple hours later, the door opens again. Said technicians, now loaded up on coffee and in a state of curious panic, goggle at the sight of an unknown object parking itself right in the entrance, wedging it open with some type of forcefield. Moments later, an unknown object suddenly swoops out of the sky AT SEVERAL TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT, the thing in the door explodes, and then the door closes.

That's bound to be front page news for the locals in this part of the sphere. Hell, it'll probably preocupy every scientist for ten million miles for the next ten years and inspire whole generations to go exploring their universe. And yet that ten-million mile radius is TINY TINY SPEC on the inside of the a sphere that contains more surface area than every Federation world combined. If such a thing were ever inhabited, it could support a population of hundreds of billions; this many people packing up and moving would result in social, ecological and archeological chaos on every habitable world for a thousand light years.

And... yeah, we're supposed to believe Data was able to scan the entire surface of this sphere, in detail, in just a matter of hours, in a ship still reeling from the effects of an extremely aggressive alien tractor beam.

If it was ever inhabited, then it is still inhabited, because the logistics of relocating hundreds of billions of people from what is at the moment still a mostly-habitable superworld just doesn't add up, and the only logical explanation is that Enterprise' sensors failed at an inconvenient time. That being the case--for anyone except the formulaic reset-button-pounding TNG writers--the Dyson sphere is a giant ball of story possibilities, possibly enough for a whole new spinoff. Realistically, even if it was abandoned, it would take CENTURIES--or at the very least, one whole season of Voyager--to explore it.

 

[Neopeius]

What would the sky look like from the inside surface of the Dysonsphere in “Relics”?

I think it would look white (except for the sun, of course). If you were standing on the surface, every point above your head would be reflecting light back at you, just like the moon does. But it's unlikely you'd be able to make out any physical features like you can on the moon. The opposite side of the sphere would be hundreds of times farther away than the moon is. Just pure, featureless, brilliant white.

If there's air inside, the sky would be blue. Raleigh scattering.

 

[ancient]

Well, I just tend not to believe that people who build something as far beyond Federation technology as a Dyson Sphere are complete morons.

And on an object the size of this dyson sphere, I'm sure that the alarms went off in a control center somewhere, as a few hundred bleary eyed technicians were roused from their sleep and rushed to control stations to wonder at that Ancient Door Thing that hasn't opened in millenia, that they don't remember how to open anymore, that they don't remember who put it there or where it goes and have been trying to study for three generations; suddenly the door opens, a blurry object zips through at close to the speed of light and heads off in the direction of the sun and "What the fuck was that?!"

Bwuh? A starship? certainly they have no fucking clue how to detect one, or figure out what it is. Yeah, that makes sense. The big-ass door in the side of the sphere that lets things in? Pfft, whatever. I mean, who gives a shit, right? Eh, maybe it's some poor wayward ship, maybe an entire fleet of Romulan warbirds. Live and let live.

Anyway, I think that they tried to make it clear in the episode that the sun was in the process of having a major fit. I suppose it's possible some of the die-hard sphere-people were sitting in underground hybernation capsules on the off chance the sun didn't go nova, stubbon super-advanced aliens that they may be.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Well, I just tend not to believe that people who build something as far beyond Federation technology as a Dyson Sphere are complete morons.

And on an object the size of this dyson sphere, I'm sure that the alarms went off in a control center somewhere, as a few hundred bleary eyed technicians were roused from their sleep and rushed to control stations to wonder at that Ancient Door Thing that hasn't opened in millenia, that they don't remember how to open anymore, that they don't remember who put it there or where it goes and have been trying to study for three generations; suddenly the door opens, a blurry object zips through at close to the speed of light and heads off in the direction of the sun and "What the fuck was that?!"

Bwuh? A starship? certainly they have no fucking clue how to detect one, or figure out what it is.

That depends. How long have they been sitting there in that sphere, all on their lonesome, since the last time a Starship came through those doors?

I don't care how smart they are; even without the occasional civil war or natural disaster, computers malfunction, records get lost, files get corrupted, etc etc. You think the crew of Yonada had any idea there was a Constitution class starship following them through the stars? You think they WOULD have if their machine god had malfunctioned along the way?

The big-ass door in the side of the sphere that lets things in?

Does it? It hasn't opened in twenty millennia. Most civilizations don't even have histories that long.

High priestess of Yonada was informed that the ship was firing missiles at a potential enemy? No? I wonder why?

Eh, maybe it's some poor wayward ship, maybe an entire fleet of Romulan warbirds. Live and let live.

The Romulans (or rather, the Vulcans) were inventing indoor plumbing when the Dyson Sphere was ANCIENT. Wanna bet to the inhabitants the door was already an ancient artifact by then?

Anyway, I think that they tried to make it clear in the episode that the sun was in the process of having a major fit.

Which is a silly reason to abandon an artificial structure with the surface area equivalent to several thousand planets. A civilization that has the technology to build a structure has the technology to mitigate that problem. If that technology--or the knowledge to use it--has been lost, so too has their capacity to abandon the sphere or, for that matter, detect the problem in the first place.

I suppose it's possible some of the die-hard sphere-people were sitting in underground hybernation capsules on the off chance the sun didn't go nova, stubbon super-advanced aliens that they may be.

Or maybe the Enterprise' sensors just aren't up to the task of scanning the equivalent of every planet in the explored galaxy for life signs, in an environment they weren't designed for, in thirty minutes or less.


Look, ancient, it's a matter of scale. We're not talking about some "really big space station" type scenario. This aint the promelian battlecruiser, it's not the nuclear-powered garbage scow, it's not even the freaking planet killer. We're talking about an object whose surface area is the equivalent of the entire Federation, an object whose inhabitants have not been heard from in the whole of recorded history, from which no vessel has entered or left in a geologic age, of which there are no rumors or legends or even indications of existence. Your thinking doesn't even hold water for an artificial planet ("Paradise Syndrome" and "For the World Is Hollow") let alone something that could swallow every Federation world and still have room to spare.

 

[JNG]

If it was ever inhabited, then it is still inhabited, because the logistics of relocating hundreds of billions of people from what is at the moment still a mostly-habitable superworld just doesn't add up

This being Trek, it seems possible they evolved into a higher life form or pure energy or something, or live in their own dimension now, or something of that nature. Few of the most advanced aliens seem to like to hang around and do gross lower life-form meat-puppet sorts of things like breathe or eat, and I guess we can't be sure how long ago all this happened (though if material from surrounding systems was gathered for use in its construction, I'd imagine you might be able figure out from gravitational stuff a general time frame).

I suppose it is also possible the Dyson Sphere inhabitants were wiped out in some exotic way by big shots like the T'kon or someone like that.

One of the novels had the thing still inhabited by many species.

Damn, I'm curious about it.

 

[ancient]

Well, I just tend not to believe that people who build something as far beyond Federation technology as a Dyson Sphere are complete morons.

And on an object the size of this dyson sphere, I'm sure that the alarms went off in a control center somewhere, as a few hundred bleary eyed technicians were roused from their sleep and rushed to control stations to wonder at that Ancient Door Thing that hasn't opened in millenia, that they don't remember how to open anymore, that they don't remember who put it there or where it goes and have been trying to study for three generations; suddenly the door opens, a blurry object zips through at close to the speed of light and heads off in the direction of the sun and "What the fuck was that?!"

Bwuh? A starship? certainly they have no fucking clue how to detect one, or figure out what it is.

That depends. How long have they been sitting there in that sphere, all on their lonesome, since the last time a Starship came through those doors?

I don't care how smart they are; even without the occasional civil war or natural disaster, computers malfunction, records get lost, files get corrupted, etc etc. You think the crew of Yonada had any idea there was a Constitution class starship following them through the stars? You think they WOULD have if their machine god had malfunctioned along the way?


Does it? It hasn't opened in twenty millennia. Most civilizations don't even have histories that long.

It not being used in that long could mean that...no one was home.

High priestess of Yonada was informed that the ship was firing missiles at a potential enemy? No? I wonder why?


The Romulans (or rather, the Vulcans) were inventing indoor plumbing when the Dyson Sphere was ANCIENT. Wanna bet to the inhabitants the door was already an ancient artifact by then?

Anyway, I think that they tried to make it clear in the episode that the sun was in the process of having a major fit.

Which is a silly reason to abandon an artificial structure with the surface area equivalent to several thousand planets. A civilization that has the technology to build a structure has the technology to mitigate that problem. If that technology--or the knowledge to use it--has been lost, so too has their capacity to abandon the sphere or, for that matter, detect the problem in the first place.

I suppose it's possible some of the die-hard sphere-people were sitting in underground hybernation capsules on the off chance the sun didn't go nova, stubbon super-advanced aliens that they may be.

Or maybe the Enterprise' sensors just aren't up to the task of scanning the equivalent of every planet in the explored galaxy for life signs, in an environment they weren't designed for, in thirty minutes or less.


Look, ancient, it's a matter of scale. We're not talking about some "really big space station" type scenario. This aint the promelian battlecruiser, it's not the nuclear-powered garbage scow, it's not even the freaking planet killer. We're talking about an object whose surface area is the equivalent of the entire Federation, an object whose inhabitants have not been heard from in the whole of recorded history, from which no vessel has entered or left in a geologic age, of which there are no rumors or legends or even indications of existence. Your thinking doesn't even hold water for an artificial planet ("Paradise Syndrome" and "For the World Is Hollow") let alone something that could swallow every Federation world and still have room to spare.

Well, I tend to take an episode at face value unless there is a pressing reason not to. It's entirely possible that the sphere-builders considered the Dyson Sphere a minor outpost of little value. Maybe it was a minor outpost and they just left it, then it (and the sun) fell into disrepair. I mean, this was a big impressive thing to Picard & co., but who knows just how powerful the sphere-builders were? Maybe they evolved into Q-like people or something.

Btw, sorry if my last post was kind of blunt, it was 2 AM.

 

[Praetor]

Or for a change of pace, maybe the aliens built it, moved in, and their society stagnated and slid backwards to the point that they don't really remember that they built it or know how to run it anymore and the Sphere itself is so well-built it takes care of itself.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It not being used in that long could mean that...no one was home.

Or it could simply mean nobody with starship technology has passed through the door in a long time.

That's the thing about doors: they do not open by themselves. Assuming the dyson sphere really was built to be the home of a spacefaring civilization, a disastrous lack of space vessels wouldn't be much of a problem for a civilization that already has everything it needs right there in the box. To a point, the doors might only be necessary in emergencies or during the actual construction of the sphere; considering the effect they had on the Enterprise, it's even possible they weren't designed for use by starships in the first place.

Well, I tend to take an episode at face value unless there is a pressing reason not to.

The sheer enormity of the sphere is a pretty pressing reason in this case. We've seen some doozies before (Voyager scanning for life signs on planet's multiple light years away, for example) but this one stretches plausibility on the one hand while reducing the entire sphere to a glorified plot device.

It's entirely possible that the sphere-builders considered the Dyson Sphere a minor outpost of little value. Maybe it was a minor outpost and they just left it, then it (and the sun) fell into disrepair.

As, I believe, Mike Okuda put it once, "If you had the technology to build starships at the touch of a button, you wouldn't need to."

A civilization that builds such an enormous outpost for trivial reasons would have no NEED for such an outpost, their technology would render the entire enterprise moot. Unless they were building it for a huge quantity of "someone else," like a cosmic greenhouse or something, in which case the dyson sphere would be an intergalactic Noah's Arc for the populations of several thousand worlds. Even if the builders ultimately abandoned it, they'd have little reason to abandon the Arc inhabitants and just let them die (otherwise what was the point of building this thing in the first place?)

Maybe they evolved into Q-like people or something.

That's entirely possible, although in that case I don't expect they would simply leave the thing lying around unoccupied. Even the Organians still maintained their buildings and cities, if only for the sake of corporeal visitors. If the Dyson Builders had no more use for it, I kind of think they would have dismantled it and converted it into something more useful.

OTOH, their evolving into Q-like entities might be the REASON they didn't show up on Data's sensors. Just because you've shed a physical body doesn't mean you don't need a place to stay.

 

[ancient]

The whole premise that the sphere builders no longer care about or can't do anything to control the doors just goes back to what I was saying to start with, which was that there isn't any advanced culture living on the sphere, only sqwatters or people with no technical skill.

If there was some super-advanced culture on the sphere, they would've gotten involved somehow.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The whole premise that the sphere builders no longer care about or can't do anything to control the doors just goes back to what I was saying to start with, which was that there isn't any advanced culture living on the sphere, only sqwatters or people with no technical skill.

Right. Like the crew of the Yonada.

Just because their ancestors built it doesn't mean they know how to use it.

If there was some super-advanced culture on the sphere, they would've gotten involved somehow.

Which simply means no ADVANCED civilization. That hardly precludes a civilization of some kind.

 

[ancient]

Agreed. Hooray, I love when a discussion ends so nicely...


...glances around...

 

[Psion]

Agreed. Hooray, I love when a discussion ends so nicely...


...glances around...

[glances up from calculations] Don't look at me ... I'm still trying to make the gravity work the way I thought it did.

 

[ancient]

Hmm, I think that the null grav zone only works with a sphere, but not a 2D ring. Maybe that's it? I'm not sure what simplifications you're making.