The Delta Flyers now covering DS9

[Crewman6]

I was wondering if anyone was still listening. Funny, Improbable Cause is peak season three.

I'm still listening, but as I said in my previous comment, I'm getting really sick and tired of Armin.

He's just so relentlessly fucking stupid it often defies belief.

For someone who is such a "theater" veteran, it's amazing how often he doesn't understand simple dramatics.

For someone with a lengthy TV resume, he often seems to have no clue how TV shows actually work and how you have to sometimes have a few compromises when you're making a show.

For instance, while he's technically correct that Major Kira, as a Bajoran officer, has no need to go on Defiant-centric missions, she's still a series regular so the show is going to use her. He brings this up frequently and is one of about a hundred or so examples of his small-minded pedantry.

I have oft thought of coming to this board after listening to an episode to write an angry screen listing all of Armin's boneheaded comments of the week, but then realized I would rather just get on with my life. But check out the review of Defiant if you want to hear Armin at his arguable worst.

And in the "Way of the Warrior" episode, he's at it again, misunderstanding how the Prime Directive works (a frequent error), among other sins.

I have come to vastly, vastly prefer the Terry episodes. She is such a warm presence compared to his insane cranky nitpickery there's just no contest between them.

I also really liked Chase Masterson's recent guest appearance, even though she was only in her debut episode (Explorers) for one scene.

But, man, if Armin suddenly decided to quit, I'd rejoice.

 

[VDCNI]

I do think he has some nice insights, he seems to have a better memory of the people involved and gives good criticism in places.

But when he gets pedantic he's so frustrating, I feel like screaming. The Prime Directive thing in Way Of The Warrior is painful. He so confidently gets it wrong over and over.

 

[Crewman6]

I do think he has some nice insights, he seems to have a better memory of the people involved and gives good criticism in places.

But when he gets pedantic he's so frustrating, I feel like screaming. The Prime Directive thing in Way Of The Warrior is painful. He so confidently gets it wrong over and over.

Good point. It's the confidence in his wrongness that makes it all the worse.

He does have good insights from time to time and I do find myself occasionally agreeing with an interesting opinion or a well-earned critique.

But, at this point, it really just feels like a stopped clock being right twice a day, as the nitpicking and the flat-out WRONG nitpicking is overwhelming.

 

[Sakonna]

Personally I don't mind Armin's nitpicking, even when it's wrong, because he has a sense of humor about it. The others are always teasing him over it, and he pokes fun at himself as well. For me the self-awareness takes it from potentially annoying to endearing.

Weeks later, I am still stunned he didn't love "Family Business"! He's usually so high on the Ferengi episodes (appropriately so, I think committing to it is part of what makes the Quark performance so good). "Family Business" is one of my Ferengi favs, so I was so thrown he didn't care for it.

 

[Crewman6]

Personally I don't mind Armin's nitpicking, even when it's wrong, because he has a sense of humor about it. The others are always teasing him over it, and he pokes fun at himself as well. For me the self-awareness takes it from potentially annoying to endearing.

I actually disagree that he has self-awareness about it and even the "sense of humor" about it feels, well, a bit arrogant. He's convinced he's correct, he doesn't do it with tongue-in-cheek (ever!) and is assured that everyone else is stupid/made a mistake and only he is smart enough to realize it.

Sure, he "jokes" about his nitpicks, but the jokes are always directed at the perceived error in the episode, not at himself. He will occasionally make comments like, "Here I go again with the nitpicks", but that isn't actually self-deprecating at all.

It's quite insufferable.

Weeks later, I am still stunned he didn't love "Family Business"! He's usually so high on the Ferengi episodes (appropriately so, I think committing to it is part of what makes the Quark performance so good). "Family Business" is one of my Ferengi favs, so I was so thrown he didn't care for it.

I don't love "Family Business", but I do think it's one of the stronger (strongest?) Ferengi family episodes, which range from mediocre to utterly unwatchable. I enjoy it, kind of, but I actually found myself nodding along with a lot of the hosts' problems with it, even Armin's.

And I will also give Armin credit for critiquing his featured episodes. He was also (appropriately, IMO) down on "Prophet Motive."

But it should also be pointed out that Terry was similarly critical of both "Meridian" and "Facets," so fortunately none of the actors seem too blinded by their own spotlights.

 

[ananta]

I love “Family Busines” too and was surprised by Armin’s comments.

What astonished me most though was his criticism of Louise Fletcher’s performance in “Shakaar”. In spite of the fact she was an Oscar winner, his good friend and all round brilliant, he kept going on about her performance and saying she should have brought more nuance to the part. When Kira accuses Winn of wanting to steal Bareil’s glory, Winn retorts that Bareil didn’t do what he did for publicity and “since you were in a relationship with him I thought you’d know that”. Armin thought Louise could have delivered the line with kindness or in a pleasant way, whereas clearly as scripted Winn is being a dick. Louise was just doing her job. How could you interpret that line positively?

Anyway, I do still enjoy hearing his insights, and he does admit he’s a pedant. We’re all different I guess! I subscribed to the Patreon content and it was worth it as I kind of prefer the “after chat” even if I don’t always agree with it. I really enjoyed the insight into “Way of the Warrior” and it was great hearing from Michael (and seeing occasional TNG vs DS9 tensions between Michael and Armin). It strayed off topic but Terry almost had me in tears discussing her departure from both DS9 and Becker and fearing the loss of her elderly parents which I can very much relate to.

I’m glad Terry is doing “The Visitor” next time. If Armin picked it apart too much and they fail to appreciate what a masterpiece it is I don’t think I’d listen again

 

[Crewman6]

What astonished me most though was his criticism of Louise Fletcher’s performance in “Shakaar”. In spite of the fact she was an Oscar winner, his good friend and all round brilliant, he kept going on about her performance and saying she should have brought more nuance to the part. When Kira accuses Winn of wanting to steal Bareil’s glory, Winn retorts that Bareil didn’t do what he did for publicity and “since you were in a relationship with him I thought you’d know that”. Armin thought Louise could have delivered the line with kindness or in a pleasant way, whereas clearly as scripted Winn is being a dick. Louise was just doing her job. How could you interpret that line positively?

That was a rare instance where i agreed with Armin. Winn is usually played in a very one-dimensional way, with her villainy right out there in front.

I think, particularly in that episode, if she had started with a more conciliatory tone and, for a moment, you felt she might actually be a little genuine, then her villainous turn later in the episode would have carried more weight. Instead, it was just one-note Winn again at every stage.

I honestly find it shocking hearing from all of the actors how they never received acting notes from directors and how there were never any writer-producers on set.

So every actor was just winging it and hoping their interpretation was correct. It's no wonder that sometimes subtleties got lost along the way.

 

[ananta]

I never found Winn’s performance one-note personally. I thought Fletcher was quite masterful; she never resorted to scenery chewing as a lot of other actors would have done. But the bottom line is, like many people in real life, the character is not a nice person and there’s no getting around that fact. Her making digs at Kira over Bareil (including along the lines of “you’re STILL grieving? He died months ago!!”) couldn’t be taken in any way other than sheer dickery.

 

[Tuskin38]

The Prime Directive thing in Way Of The Warrior is painful. He so confidently gets it wrong over and over.

I'll have to re-watch the episode myself, but from what I remember I don't think he's technically wrong in that instance.

Unless the Cardassian government specifically asked for help, rescuing them would be a prime directive violation, for the same reason Picard didn't get directly involved with the Klingon Civil War in TNG.

 

[VDCNI]

I'll have to re-watch the episode myself, but from what I remember I don't think he's technically wrong in that instance.

Unless the Cardassian government specifically asked for help, rescuing them would be a prime directive violation, for the same reason Picard didn't get directly involved with the Klingon Civil War in TNG.

The Klingon Civil War was an internal matter, this is not.

And Dukat implicitly does ask for help.

 

[Crewman6]

The Klingon Civil War was an internal matter, this is not.

Exactly. An invasion by an outside aggressor is, by definition, not "internal."

Armin's argument would suggest the Federation can never come to the aid of anyone, ever.*

And, yes, the UFP and Cardassians did have a treat. It wasn't as long and well-established as the Klingon treaty, but it did exist and many stories in both TNG and DS9 centered around trying to "preserve" the treaty. It's arguable there was a mutual-defense clause, but that's just speculation.


*that said, the arguments given in "Ensign Ro" about how the UFP had to stand idly by and allow the Bajorans to be conquered and abused by the Cardassians during the Occupation don't hold water and that's not how the Prime Directive was ever meant to work. Particularly when Picard says those things "happened in the bounds of the Cardassian Empire. Uh, how the hell is Bajor in the bounds of the Cardassian Empire. Obviously, the Prime Directive is misunderstood and misapplied, even by Trek writers at times.

 

[Tuskin38]

I honestly found Michael Dorn more annoying in this episode, because he kept spoiling details from future episodes after Robbie and Garret said they didn’t want to be spoiled

 

[ananta]

Next week Marc Alaimo will be commenting on Indiscretion with Armin. That should be interesting. By all accounts, Marc genuinely thinks Dukat is a hero. I always remember finding that episode a bit icky because it almost seemed like they were setting up Dukat as a dashing hero (and potential love interest for Kira).

 

[Crewman6]

I'm still listening. The episode on "The Visitor" was a gush fest.

Had trouble finishing "Hippocratic Oath." It was just a boring discussion with Armin adding nothing but dumb nitpicks, as usual. A solid episode, not the greatest, but the conversation was flat across the board. I shuddered, though, when I actually agreed with his comment on the last scene of the episode.

His nitpicking was on display for "Indiscretion" again, though somewhat muted. Though he had the dumb comment (a recurring one) about how/why Kira is "allowed to leave the station and use a runabout."

Um, she's second in command, she's not working the night shift at Arby's. She has some latitude and she has a lot of pull with Captain Sisko. She was also arguably doing an important mission for Bajor by trying to find their lost citizens, so it's highly likely she went with the full knowledge and backing of the Bajoran government. Good god, use your friggin' brain, Armin! She's not ducking out in the middle of the night hoping no one will notice.

As for Marc, the guy sounded really rough. He's in his early 80s, obviously not a young man, and the quality of his voice wasn't helped by what sounded like a crummy connection. Given how verbal Dukat was as a character, he wasn't quite as expansive and chatty as I expected him to be. Perhaps also due to age/speaking?

It was fun having him on the show, though, and, unsurprisingly, he wished that Dukat and Kira had a romance.

Which, as most of us know on this board, was completely vetoed by Nana Visitor herself. And rightly so.

 

[ananta]

Marc clearly had the hots for Nana, which is alluded to in the WWLB documentary and he desperately wanted Dukat and Kira to get together. The crazy thing in this episode is that no one questions it when Marc laments the fact Kira and Dukat never fell “in love”. Maybe they were being polite. Get real, Marc! It would be akin to Anne Frank falling in love with Hitler.

Indiscretion was one of the weaker episodes of the season even though it was still pretty decent. Cyia Batten gave the best performance in her two minutes of screen time but the B-story was more enjoyable. Ben and Kasidy are possibly my favourite Trek couple. So much chemistry and fun.

 

[Weyoun 251]

I've enjoyed it for the most part - and The Visitor episode really got me in the feels.

Love how much they all talk about Cirroc Lofton as an actor and his development.

Been interesting that the last few episodes are more "free" in the language - can find Garrett Wang a bit stilted of childish at times when he is trying to say something NSWF without actually saying it so this helps loosen him up.

I enjoyed Armin most in the early episodes as I didn't think Terry brought much more than the odd anecdote early on (maybe she was defering to the main hosts?) but for S3 and 4 she seems more vocal and leads the conversation which I like.

 

[ananta]

Terry is adorable—warm, funny and a little feisty too at times. My favourite moment was when Garrett was making some stupid nitpick about something and she told him, “you just stay in your Voyager lane!”

 

[VDCNI]

Terry has certainly gotten stronger as the episodes have gone by. She has a lot more to contribute though her memory is still iffy.

If Armin just left a few topics alone like the Prime Directive & how Starfleet/the station operates he'd be fine but pretty much every episode he says something stupid on these topics. On Hippocratic Oath he was asking why Odo is getting involved with solving crimes, what's that got to do with station Security!!!!

And yes i assumed they didn't say anything to Marc to be polite but yes a Dukat/Kira relationship would been a disaster.

 

[Crewman6]

I agree that Terry is pretty delightful, but she never seems to remember anything from production. Fair enough, it was thirty years ago. One wonders how accurate Armin's recollections are given the time span. Armin is also definitely the kind of guy who probably internally reinforced what he wants to remember over the years.

Yeah, Armin definitely has a group of common subjects that come up again and again about which is almost always stunningly wrong. The Prime Directive, station operations, jurisdiction, how the galaxy "works", etc. At one point, he didn't realize Kira's outfit was actually a uniform and wasn't sure who owned the runabouts, the Bajorans or the Federation. Good god, man.

On the rare occasions when he is technically correct (i.e. why are Kira/Odo present for what are clearly a starfleet-specific missions when they should really be on the station), he seems to forget he's watching a TV show where minor allowances like that are made so we can actually feature our lead actors. Come on, man, it's a TV show! Stop bringing it up!

Just about the only contributions Armin makes that I like are when he's complimenting his fellow actors, especially Cirroc, who really was very good, especially considering his age and wasn't used nearly enough (he's absent from literally 100 episodes in the show's 175ish run.)

 

[Bad Thoughts]

she never seems to remember anything from production.

I'm not sure, but I don't think she started to do the convention thing until after the 20th anniversary, so she may not have as much active recall of what went down.