The 1994 Nellis AFB UFO video

[YellowSubmarine]

I was just making a point about how out of all the supposed alien spacecraft sightings in the world all it takes is for 1 to be a truly alien ship to prove the existence of life elsewhere.

Yes. It takes one truly alien ship to prove the existence of aliens. Not thousands of not so truly alien ones. Until we find that one spaceship, the rest are no evidence of the existence of aliens any more than footage from Star Trek is.

Also that's the more complicated way to do it: The aliens have to travel here, and give all that money for the trip, just to prove their existence. It's so much easy if we just picked up their transmission, and if they don't have transmissions yet, we picked up the atmospheric composition of their planets.

 

[PurpleBuddha]

I can't tell what it is. Could be a small airplane. could be balloons put together and lost.

But for those who think its aliens, I have this to say.

If aliens wanted Civilians of the world to know about their existence, they would show us. Since they haven't its probably safe to say that we wouldn't be able to detect them using to them what is considered Primitive technology. We have airplanes today that can trick radar.

Yes, I highly doubt it is an alien craft. I would bet my house and car against 100 dollars in a heart beat.

But your argument is really not at all convincing because it is speculation about what a civilization of intelligent beings may or may not do and we really have no clue. I could speculate that it is an alien out sight seeing at the universe's nature preserves and he wanted to get a closer look and get a thrill at how we would react kind of like when kids tap on the glass at an aquarium or feed the bears.

Or I could speculate that it is merely an alien probe gathering information and when it spotted a flying craft it came in real close to get a good look. Perhaps it was the first of its kind to ever find earth.

Or maybe it was an alien trying to make contact and it got really frustrated because it tried every type of "frequency" it could think of and we didn't respond. There is no way in hell this alien would land without first making contact from his craft, so he left, but not before trying and being sighted several other times.

Or maybe it was a probe that needed to fly into our atmosphere to get a precise reading of the type of life we are so its builders could launch a biological attack on us in the future wiping out all of mankind in days. Extra weight and power for stealth was not wasted on this probe because even if we spot it, what are we going to do about it?


And those aren't even the particularly imaginative possibilities. I am not sure it is worth the time to kind of debunk something like this by using an argument that predicts what "they" might or might not do if they came here.

 

[Bill Morris]

Anyway, I thought this video was interesting because it raised the notion that a group of people could set up a skywatch, where anyone could notify a whole local group by cell phone, similar to the service the Japanese government has set up for earthquake prediction, where people's cell phone beep a second before a magnitude 4 or greater earthquake starts. Then, when someone spotted something in the sky, everyone in the group who was home at the time could try to get video of it, hopefullly resulting in multiple filming of the same object.

But since this particular video could possibily have been faked, it has to be deemed of little value.

But the giant flying triangles seem to another story, since there have been many sightings, dating back at least to the 1940s, at least two of which had more than 10,000 witnesses each. And the best of the Belgium sightings has radar data from four airports and two F-16s, showing extreme changes in speed and altiitude, plus observation by many police officers and over 2,600 detailed written reports from witnesses.

Some seem to think the triangles might be related to the Aurora project, but the things reported are actually bigger than any of the hangers at Area 51, not to mention capable of high-g manuevers, and have been around too long to still be secret.

 

[sojourner]

I always thought the ufo nuts should stage a million man march on area 51. Who would stop them? Make sure the press is involved and there is no way the airforce would fire a shot. Of course you would have to organize and do it fast enough to prevent them from just moving everything to another base.

 

[RedShirt]

Flash Mob: Groom Lake

Count me in, lol

 

[FordSVT]

I always thought the ufo nuts should stage a million man march on area 51. Who would stop them? Make sure the press is involved and there is no way the airforce would fire a shot. Of course you would have to organize and do it fast enough to prevent them from just moving everything to another base.

If they ever used to do UFO related activities at Area 51, I'd image that time has come and gone, probably a least a decade or more.

 

[John O.]

And all the UFO mags and groups have said as much, back in the mid-90's actually. There was a lot of talk about how all the publicity prompted a lot of projects to be shipped off to various other bases.

 

[John O.]

I always thought the ufo nuts should stage a million man march on area 51. Who would stop them? Make sure the press is involved and there is no way the airforce would fire a shot. Of course you would have to organize and do it fast enough to prevent them from just moving everything to another base.

And throwing everyone in a CIA blacksite

 

[sojourner]

And all the UFO mags and groups have said as much, back in the mid-90's actually. There was a lot of talk about how all the publicity prompted a lot of projects to be shipped off to various other bases.

Well, then just pick a more appropriate location. No one said it had to be Area 51.

 

[Bill Morris]

I don't know what UFO nuts, bolts, tricorders, or warp shuttles the U.S. government may have or where and be tinkering with, but about 20 countries have released their UFO files in the last few years, revealing some previously classified cases that are hard to write off as misidentifications, hoaxes, etc. And on YouTube there are various documentaries and clips that show foreign generals, pilots, a former Canadian defense minister, etc. that seem pretty convinced these things are alien and seem to suspect that the U.S. is concealing hard evidence. And we have several U.S. astronauts making the same sort of claims.

 

[ThankQ]

all it takes is one little grey being to prove to the world we are not alone in this universe.

There are 7 billion people on this planet and people are worried about "being alone".

Considering the vastness of space we're "alone" even if we're not alone.

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I have about 37 points to make, but dammit, I don't want to type all that much. I suspect you have a Christian basis for believe that we're all that is. Could be wrong, but that's what I suspect.

Help me out, if you would. Explain to me the basis for your position and I'll post the relevant points.

 

[scotthm]

Considering the vastness of space we're "alone" even if we're not alone.

I suspect you have a Christian basis for believe that we're all that is. Could be wrong, but that's what I suspect.

Help me out, if you would. Explain to me the basis for your position and I'll post the relevant points.

I am a Christian, but I don't "believe" Earth is necessarily the only inhabited planet. I don't know.

My comment was meant to point out that even if there are other inhabited* planets in the universe that they would be so widely seperated that they would be effectively isolated (i.e. "alone".)

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* By "inhabited" I'm referring of other civilizations, given the context of this thread.

 

[ThankQ]

Considering the vastness of space we're "alone" even if we're not alone.

I suspect you have a Christian basis for believe that we're all that is. Could be wrong, but that's what I suspect.

Help me out, if you would. Explain to me the basis for your position and I'll post the relevant points.

I am a Christian, but I don't "believe" Earth is necessarily the only inhabited planet. I don't know.

My comment was meant to point out that even if there are other inhabited* planets in the universe that they would be so widely seperated that they would be effectively isolated (i.e. "alone".)

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* By "inhabited" I'm referring of other civilizations, given the context of this thread.

Okay, good. The "*" eliminates at least a few of my 37 points, which I think you figured out, so we need not bother with those.

There are so many ways we could find out that we're not alone.

Odds beyond slim, but what if we were to stumble upon an alien Voyager or Pioneer? No one ever talks about this, and I don't know why. But my god, what would that mean? That wouldn't create a dialogue, but the implications are staggering.

 

[scotthm]

Odds beyond slim, but what if we were to stumble upon an alien Voyager or Pioneer? No one ever talks about this, and I don't know why. But my god, what would that mean? That wouldn't create a dialogue, but the implications are staggering.

Probably. What were the implications for the native Americans when the Europeans stumbled upon them?

What will the implication be if--1,000 years from now--people are still wondering if extraterrestrials exist?

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[ThankQ]

Odds beyond slim, but what if we were to stumble upon an alien Voyager or Pioneer? No one ever talks about this, and I don't know why. But my god, what would that mean? That wouldn't create a dialogue, but the implications are staggering.

Probably. What were the implications for the native Americans when the Europeans stumbled upon them?

Not too much, in the context of this conversation. Better example would be the isolated tribes who recently threw rocks at a helicopter. But still, "a different tribe learned how to build flying machines" isn't in the same ballpark.

What will the implication be if--1,000 years from now--people are still wondering if extraterrestrials exist?

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Not too much, either. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Your 1000 year timescale is beyond tiny, but an understandable mistake...not mistake... and understandable conceit of human timescales.

 

[scotthm]

What will the implication be if--1,000 years from now--people are still wondering if extraterrestrials exist?

Your 1000 year timescale is beyond tiny, but an understandable mistake...not mistake... and understandable conceit of human timescales.

It wasn't meant to allow for a comprehensive search of the universe, but it probably would effectively rule out life elsewhere in our solar system.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

True. Which means that Believers will continue to believe even if evidence is never forthcoming.

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[ThankQ]

What will the implication be if--1,000 years from now--people are still wondering if extraterrestrials exist?

Your 1000 year timescale is beyond tiny, but an understandable mistake...not mistake... and understandable conceit of human timescales.

It wasn't meant to allow for a comprehensive search of the universe, but it probably would effectively rule out life elsewhere in our solar system.

Not even close. An advanced civilization 2hLY away wouldn't know we exist. An advanced civilization 2kLY away wouldn't know for another 1,900 years. 1kLY is roughly 1% of just our own galaxy.

There is always the chance that we're the first. We don't think too much on that, but it's a real possibility. As scary as it sounds, we may be the wise old man. We may be the Morgan Freeman of our galactic movie.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

True. Which means that Believers will continue to believe even if evidence is never forthcoming.

---------------[/QUOTE]

Absolutely. There is no evidence whatsoever that a god does not exist. There are, however, piles of evidence that religion is entirely invented.

If you have two hours in the near future, got to HULU and search for NOVA. Limit it to "full eps" and on the second page is a show titled something like "The secrets of the Bible" a great show that makes obvious effort to stay neutral. I personally think it trys so hard to not offend the three major mono-religions that it slants slightly toward the Biblical, but I think they do a great job nonetheless.

 

[Bill Morris]

Well, if there are a bunch of alien tourists just watching, only occasionally being seen but not welcoming us into the interstellar community, then we are alone in a sense and can go about our business like ants ignoring noninteferring humans.

I hadn't paid much attention to this UFO business in the past few years, and the Web seems to be polluted with BS on the subject. But I have for a long time been aware of mass sightings with multiple radar confirmation that created temporary excitement that soon subsided after official word that assured the public there was nothing to it.

We've heard that even U.S. presidents can't get a straight answer from those in government that would know what's going on. I has been said that a sitting U.S. president would need congressional action just to get access.

Yesterday I found a nice page of quotes, many from people who should know despite any cover-up:

http://www.netscientia.com/ufo_quotes.html

A related subject to which I had paid virtually no attention before may offer some hard evidence. There seem to be two classes of crop circles: man-made (the majority) and those few with features that can't be duplicated with known technology. Three students from MIT tried and failed. Here's something that summarizes it pretty well:

http://paranormal.about.com/od/cropcircles/qt/Crop-Circle-Evidence-Changes-To-Plants.htm

This illustrates the business about bend nodes. So if you want evidence to display in a museum, you'd have to show up at one of the new crop circles that isn't a fake, grab a few bent stalks and seal them in blocks of epoxy.

John Lundberg claims to be responsible for most of the fakes being made today, and he somehow seems to make quite a bit of money doing so. Researchers don't like what he's doing, but he says that he believes in the real thing and is sending messages to whomever is making the real ones. He claims to have produced the largest known crop circle, with nine months of preparation and 52 helpers, using stomping boards, guide ropes, etc. He's also demonstated it on TV. There are also claims that some real crop circles were made in response to his fakes. Yeah, yeah. Prove it!

So one can't really differentiate fake from real by just looking at the aerial photographs. Some of the largest and most complicated ones are fake.

Here are three published scientific papers that cover some of this:

http://www.bltresearch.com/published/anatomical.php
http://www.bltresearch.com/published/semi-molten.php
http://www.bltresearch.com/published/dispersion.php

This one, from another author, is from a refereed scientific journal (I archived the PDF only for viewing here):

http://lcars24.com/Haselhoff.pdf

That doesn't explain how it's done, but we have technology called selective laser sintering, where 3D metal objects are produced from metallic dust one layer at a time, where a computer-guided laser zaps and solidifies only the desired portions of a layer of dust on each pass, after which the next layer of dust is spread and the laser does the next pass. So using a laser like that could be one part of crop-circle formation. It might be a microwave laser or perhaps use high-pressure infrasound, precisely applied, in combination with some force applied to arrange the bent stalks.

That doesn't mean a flying saucer has to hover over a field to do it. It could be done with small probes. Some unknown natural cause could be suspected if not for the sophisticated designs. About 80 witnesses say that they have seen crop circles formed within 20 second or less, but I'm not ready to take anybody's word for that.

 

[scotthm]

So one can't really differentiate fake from real by just looking at the aerial photographs.

I notice that you define the ones produced by unknown means as "real", and ones produced by known means as "fake". This implies that those produced by mysterious construction methods have not been produced by humans, but all it really means is that investigators don't know how some crop circles were produced. It's a big leap of faith to get from "real" crop circles to extraterrestrials, IMO.

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[scotthm]

There is always the chance that we're the first. We don't think too much on that, but it's a real possibility.

There's even a chance that we're the only. Maybe we are, and maybe we aren't, but right now there's no reason to believe otherwise.

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