TFF - The Good

[Lance]

it was Star Trek though...ILM shouldve done it for free (or at most some signed photos of Shatner)

I just had a giggle at my mental image of the Shat-man delivering these at the end of production.

"Thanks for all your months of hard, tiring work guys! I'm sorry we couldn't pay you, but here's a couple beers... oh, and your signed photos of me. Thanks again!" (exits stage left as tomatoes are thrown at him)

 

[Marcus Porcius Cato]

Laurence Luckinbill's Sybok and DeForest Kelley's McCoy were the saving grace in this film. Both showed through their performance a touch of warmness, humanity and consideration which was rare in other Trek movie and entirely missing in many modern blockbusters.

Really, I think ST:V was the Kelley's height as McCoy.

 

[trevanian]

I love TFF and tolerate SFS, but for me McCoy's scene with unconscious Spock in the latter is De's best work ever. I don't see any technique, it just seems so honest. Not knocking his TFF stuff, just that the other is SO solid.

 

[Khan 2.0]

ok

but I Wonder what the FX wouldve been like had ILM done them?

the spaceship FX for ENT/BOP/shuttle surely wouldve been up to Trek III standard (plus maybe wed have seen some new mushroom spacedock stuff as in VI instead of reusing the end of IV) but what about ShaKaRee/god? would they have done the bluey light show?

They didn't name names, but the 'audition' for vfx houses on TFF was to do up the god tube effect (called at that point the undisclosed wonder, I think) ... Winter or somebody was quoted as saying one of the biggest fx houses just superimposed somebody inside a tube of light without any fanciness or magic. Have no idea if that was ILM or Apogee or not, but I can't imagine DreamQuest on their worst day delivering something like that for a test.

i remember reading that in a Cinefantasqie or one of the Making of books.(plus its been mentioned on this thread back on p3) I think winter saying if theyd gone with ILM it wouldve been their 'D' team as the A team etc had already been booked with the other blockbusters of 89 (why did the Trek V team let that happen anyway? they knew the schedule)

so maybe it was ILMs 'D' team who did the dodgy test?

thing is (as already mentioned) even if they had got ILMs D team (with the top ILM people already working on Indy, GB2, BTTF2, Abyss) the fx probably wouldve still be better than what was as itd have still been ILM doing it - ILM trained, the facilities, ILM already having done the FX for II, III ,IV ... And maybe some of the 'A' team who were die hard trek fans wouldve helped out esp since it would be Captain Kirk himself theyd be helping

 

[Lance]

ok

but I Wonder what the FX wouldve been like had ILM done them?

the spaceship FX for ENT/BOP/shuttle surely wouldve been up to Trek III standard (plus maybe wed have seen some new mushroom spacedock stuff as in VI instead of reusing the end of IV) but what about ShaKaRee/god? would they have done the bluey light show?

They didn't name names, but the 'audition' for vfx houses on TFF was to do up the god tube effect (called at that point the undisclosed wonder, I think) ... Winter or somebody was quoted as saying one of the biggest fx houses just superimposed somebody inside a tube of light without any fanciness or magic. Have no idea if that was ILM or Apogee or not, but I can't imagine DreamQuest on their worst day delivering something like that for a test.

i remember reading that in a Cinefantasqie or one of the Making of books.(plus its been mentioned on this thread back on p3) I think winter saying if theyd gone with ILM it wouldve been their 'D' team as the A team etc had already been booked with the other blockbusters of 89 (why did the Trek V team let that happen anyway? they knew the schedule)

so maybe it was ILMs 'D' team who did the dodgy test?

thing is even if they had got ILMs D team (with the top ILM people already working on Indy, GB2, BTTF2, Abyss) the fx probably wouldve still be better than what was as itd have still been ILM doing it - ILM trained, the facilities, ILM already having done the FX for II, III ,IV etc (and maybe some of the 'A' team who were die hard trek fans wouldve helped out esp since it would be Captain Kirk himself theyd be helping)

Yes, but the real point is whether the outlay would equal the results. No doubt they'd still be paying ILM the same flat fee, but maybe getting an inferior product from the 'D' team, whereas they could be paying someone else less money and still get something equally competent.

 

[Timby]

it was Star Trek though...ILM shouldve done it for free (or at most some signed photos of Shatner)

ok

but I Wonder what the FX wouldve been like had ILM done them?

the spaceship FX for ENT/BOP/shuttle surely wouldve been up to Trek III standard (plus maybe wed have seen some new mushroom spacedock stuff as in VI instead of reusing the end of IV) but what about ShaKaRee/god? would they have done the bluey light show? Maybe, but itd have more than likely looked less bland, more 'ILM' looking...in fact maybe they wouldve been able to do the original ending of all the gargoyles coming out the ground after the torpedo strike and them chasing KSB back to the shuttle with Scotty accidentally beaming one up thinking its kirk and having to disintegrate it but in doing so destroys the transporter. So kirk is on the run using 2 phasers and gets to the top of the mountain and fires both phasers at the gargoyles but there's too many but then the BOP arrives and blasts them..then kirk fires his phasers at the BOP before being beamed up..(as described in The Making of The Trek Films & The Making of Trek VI) the gargoyles couldve been a combination of animatronic/puppets/early CG/animation/man in suits as in Raiders (dark angel ending), Ghostbusters, Gremlins, Twilight Zone The Movie Nightmare 20,000 segment, SW trilogy, Aliens etc (dunno how 'god' wouldve fit in with all the gargoyles? maybe He would be like the overlord of them directing them/guiding them toward the trio like a big Dr Manhattan.)

 

[austen_pierce]

it was Star Trek though...ILM shouldve done it for free (or at most some signed photos of Shatner)

ok

but I Wonder what the FX wouldve been like had ILM done them?

the spaceship FX for ENT/BOP/shuttle surely wouldve been up to Trek III standard (plus maybe wed have seen some new mushroom spacedock stuff as in VI instead of reusing the end of IV) but what about ShaKaRee/god? would they have done the bluey light show? Maybe, but itd have more than likely looked less bland, more 'ILM' looking...in fact maybe they wouldve been able to do the original ending of all the gargoyles coming out the ground after the torpedo strike and them chasing KSB back to the shuttle with Scotty accidentally beaming one up thinking its kirk and having to disintegrate it but in doing so destroys the transporter. So kirk is on the run using 2 phasers and gets to the top of the mountain and fires both phasers at the gargoyles but there's too many but then the BOP arrives and blasts them..then kirk fires his phasers at the BOP before being beamed up..(as described in The Making of The Trek Films & The Making of Trek VI) the gargoyles couldve been a combination of animatronic/puppets/early CG/animation/man in suits as in Raiders (dark angel ending), Ghostbusters, Gremlins, Twilight Zone The Movie Nightmare 20,000 segment, SW trilogy, Aliens etc (dunno how 'god' wouldve fit in with all the gargoyles? maybe He would be like the overlord of them directing them/guiding them toward the trio like a big Dr Manhattan.)

 

[SimpleLogic]

I know this film recieves a lot of flak but I just can't hate it. For me when I'm watching it it takes me back to being 9 years old and getting ready for it to come out. The "your theaters will need seatbelts" teaser poster and the anticipation of seeing another Star Trek movie, and finally my dad taking me to see it. I remember as a kid not picking a film to pieces like we all seem to do now, just enjoying it for what it is. I even wanted to get Spock's marshmellow dispenser but never did. :-(

And to others who have pointed it out it does have the best of the Kirk-Spock-McCoy dynamic of all the films.

My favorite lines are by Scotty:

"Let's see what she's got," said the captain. And then we found out, didn't we?

&

What are you standing around for? Do you not know a jailbreak when you see one?

Edit: Also at least it trys to give a valid explanation on why it has to be the Enterprise, The Admiral wants an experienced commander even though other ships are available.

 

[Khan 2.0]

I know this film recieves a lot of flak but I just can't hate it. For me when I'm watching it it takes me back to being 9 years old and getting ready for it to come out. The "your theaters will need seatbelts" teaser poster and the anticipation of seeing another Star Trek movie, and finally my dad taking me to see it.

same for me

 

[Khan 2.0]

TFF also had a sort of Indiana Jones thing going on - 'Indiana Kirk and the Quest for God' - a mystical quest movie, a 'great unknown' mcguffin that tapped into the imagination with plenty of action along the way. Like Indy in Raiders, Kirk gets roped into the whole thing by an outside force (Nazis/Sybok) searching for something incredible (Ark/Sha-Ka-Ree)...gets captured/locked up/escapes...eventually gives in when the quest is completed as the lure of the unknown is too great ("This IS history"/"You too must know...") it even had a similar end (Demonic Angels/False God - killing the main villain). if itd been a bit grander with better FX - it mightve worked very well. maybe if Sybok had been on a quest for something mystical and god releated (but not the actual almighty) it mightve worked better? like what Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade was doing the same summer (with Sean Connery - the original choice for Sybok and apparently who 'Sha-Ka-Ree' was named after)....​

​

So Trek V isnt all bad...in terms of best to worst, id put before the Avatar like Insurrection and Khan like Nemesis...but after the Kubrickian Motion Picture and Inception like Generations[]​

 

[Vger23]

I know this film recieves a lot of flak but I just can't hate it. For me when I'm watching it it takes me back to being 9 years old and getting ready for it to come out. The "your theaters will need seatbelts" teaser poster and the anticipation of seeing another Star Trek movie, and finally my dad taking me to see it.

same for me

I agree with this. I saw the movie as a kid (8th grade, opening night) with my dad, and I loved it! I had great anticipation for the release of this one, as this was the height of my Star Trek fandom as a young lad. I remember enjoying the movie for what it was, and not being concerned about the nit-picky stuff everyone rips up on these days.

There's a TON of "good" in TFF. This is closest in tone and spirit to TOS, which is (in my opinion only) the absolute best of the Star Trek franchise. I grew up with TNG (premiered when I was in 7th grade) but never loved that as much as the organic, character-driven adventure that TOS offered. And, this was very much like that. Kirk defeating a false-god...classic.

The interplay and character stuff between the main 3 characters is the best it's been out of any of the movies. The stuff in the observation lounge and around the camp fire is pure gold...priceless.

It's also one of the only Trek films (perhaps with TMP, which ironically is also bashed as one of the worst films) that inspires a legitimate sense of wonder and excitement. The characters are off doing what they were created to do: explore the wonders of the galaxy and the human condition.

There's also a great musical score, interesting production design, and imaginative cinematography.

Unfortunately, the script was not strong enough to live up to all the ideas the story presented. It was sloppy, and further damaged by studio insistence to include humor and lightness...which was not handled appropriately.

Overall, TFF will always be one of my favorites, though. I look at it as a glorious attempt that didn't quite get across the goal line.

 

[Kevman7987]

^ Khan 2.0, I read your theory about TFF on that other thread. Good stuff.

 

[Vger23]

TFF also had a sort of Indiana Jones thing going on - 'Indiana Kirk and the Quest for God' - a mystical quest movie, a 'great unknown' mcguffin that tapped into the imagination with plenty of action along the way. Like Indy in Raiders, Kirk gets roped into the whole thing by an outside force (Nazis/Sybok) searching for something incredible (Ark/Sha-Ka-Ree)...gets captured/locked up/escapes...eventually gives in when the quest is completed as the lure of the unknown is too great ("This IS history"/"You too must know...") it even had a similar end (Demonic Angels/False God - killing the main villain). if itd been a bit grander with better FX - it mightve worked very well. maybe if Sybok had been on a quest for something mystical and god releated (but not the actual almighty) it mightve worked better? like what Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade was doing the same summer (with Sean Connery - the original choice for Sybok and apparently who 'Sha-Ka-Ree' was named after)....​

​

So Trek V isnt all bad...in terms of best to worst, id put before the Avatar like Insurrection and Khan like Nemesis...but after the Kubrickian Motion Picture and Inception like Generations[]​

I agree. I've made the comparison to Indiana Jones a few times myself.

I think they could have solved some of the issues by having Sha Ka Ree be assumed to be a mystical place were, if you were intelligent and courageous to overcome the Barrier, you could have an "audience" with God as opposed to it being God's actual residence. It turns out that this is a Vulcan legend from long ago, and Sybok, being an emotional guy, firmly believes in that legend and wishes to commune with the Almighty.

A lot of the lack of believability is "why would God exist at the center of the Milky Way Galaxy?" I mean, we all know that God wasn't there...but why would the Vulcans (or even just Sybok as an individual) believe that would be reasonable? I think if you make the belief around Sha Ka Ree more about a "hero's trial"- meaning something that only the most intelligent, resourceful, and "pure faithed" can achieve...it becomes a more believable quest.

Then, it turns out that this was all a manipulation. The being who is imprisoned there reached out and planted the "vision" in Sybok's mind when it found that he was open and passionate about the idea. It's really a lure that this evil creature has created to attempt to escape.

I don't know...seems like that could have fixed some things up.

Then, you leverage the Sybok "back story" of being an extremely gifted intellect (in much the same way the novelization does) to explain some of the other stuff: Sybok has spent a lifetime attempting to perfect a wormhole effect that would allow a starship to traverse the distance relatively quickly. He has also spent a lifetime designing deflector shield modifications that would withstand the intense radiation and gravitation of the Barrier. You then have the Klingons following the Enterprise (cloaked) into the wormhole and appropriating the deflector shield frequency by hacking them.

If you jettison the Uhura fan dance, Sulu and Checkov getting "lost" and the silly Kirk fighting the 3-breasted cat sequences...you probably have enough time to get these story point in, and it's a much stronger script as a result.

 

[sonak]

TFF also had a sort of Indiana Jones thing going on - 'Indiana Kirk and the Quest for God' - a mystical quest movie, a 'great unknown' mcguffin that tapped into the imagination with plenty of action along the way. Like Indy in Raiders, Kirk gets roped into the whole thing by an outside force (Nazis/Sybok) searching for something incredible (Ark/Sha-Ka-Ree)...gets captured/locked up/escapes...eventually gives in when the quest is completed as the lure of the unknown is too great ("This IS history"/"You too must know...") it even had a similar end (Demonic Angels/False God - killing the main villain). if itd been a bit grander with better FX - it mightve worked very well. maybe if Sybok had been on a quest for something mystical and god releated (but not the actual almighty) it mightve worked better? like what Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade was doing the same summer (with Sean Connery - the original choice for Sybok and apparently who 'Sha-Ka-Ree' was named after)....​

So Trek V isnt all bad...in terms of best to worst, id put before the Avatar like Insurrection and Khan like Nemesis...but after the Kubrickian Motion Picture and Inception like Generations[]​

I agree. I've made the comparison to Indiana Jones a few times myself.

I think they could have solved some of the issues by having Sha Ka Ree be assumed to be a mystical place were, if you were intelligent and courageous to overcome the Barrier, you could have an "audience" with God as opposed to it being God's actual residence. It turns out that this is a Vulcan legend from long ago, and Sybok, being an emotional guy, firmly believes in that legend and wishes to commune with the Almighty.

A lot of the lack of believability is "why would God exist at the center of the Milky Way Galaxy?" I mean, we all know that God wasn't there...but why would the Vulcans (or even just Sybok as an individual) believe that would be reasonable? I think if you make the belief around Sha Ka Ree more about a "hero's trial"- meaning something that only the most intelligent, resourceful, and "pure faithed" can achieve...it becomes a more believable quest.

Then, it turns out that this was all a manipulation. The being who is imprisoned there reached out and planted the "vision" in Sybok's mind when it found that he was open and passionate about the idea. It's really a lure that this evil creature has created to attempt to escape.

I don't know...seems like that could have fixed some things up.

Then, you leverage the Sybok "back story" of being an extremely gifted intellect (in much the same way the novelization does) to explain some of the other stuff: Sybok has spent a lifetime attempting to perfect a wormhole effect that would allow a starship to traverse the distance relatively quickly. He has also spent a lifetime designing deflector shield modifications that would withstand the intense radiation and gravitation of the Barrier. You then have the Klingons following the Enterprise (cloaked) into the wormhole and appropriating the deflector shield frequency by hacking them.

If you jettison the Uhura fan dance, Sulu and Checkov getting "lost" and the silly Kirk fighting the 3-breasted cat sequences...you probably have enough time to get these story point in, and it's a much stronger script as a result.

I agree, that does sound like a better movie.

 

[FormerLurker]

snip ...If you jettison the Uhura fan dance, Sulu and Checkov getting "lost" and the silly Kirk fighting the 3-breasted cat sequences...you probably have enough time to get these story point in, and it's a much stronger script as a result.

I don't think you need to get rid of these sequences so much as they need better editing, both in script and at the production/editing stage. I've long thought the sequence when the Enterprise arrives at Nimbus III was poorly shot and edited, with the whole "give each cast member their moment to shine" being wasted singling Uhura out for a line which could have just as easily been heard in the background behind the rest of the dialog.

Instead, don't do any closeups. That way, Nichelle Nichols gets her line of dialog, there are half as many cuts due to framing two shots instead of ones, and it takes less time to get to the action. That saves money, time, and film stock to make a more dynamic climax the film desperately needs.

 

[Captrek]

-The music is great, one of the best scores of the series
-the TOS feel to it, from the plot to the focus on the Big Three
-Laurence Luckinbill's performance

Good lines

"what does God need with a starship?"

"I couldn't help but notice your pain."

"maybe he's not out there Bones, maybe he's in here, the human heart."

I agree with everything you wrote except the last line about god being in the human heart. It bothered me on June 9, 1989 when I first heard it and to this day. The Federation has 150 planets and they know of countless other worlds, yet god resides in the "human" heart? I don't care for that sentiment. While he's telling bones this, does he even care about spock's half Vulcan heart?

I see your point but I think he meant it in the generic sense, not the specific species.

Azetbur agrees with balls:

"Inalien"... If only you could hear yourselves. "Human rights." Why the very name is racist. The Federation is no more than a "homo sapiens only" club.

 

[Mytran]

Uhura's "bit" should have been when she flew the shuttle in to provide air support for the assault. Far more appropriate for the character and the story.

 

[Nebusj]

Uhura's "bit" should have been when she flew the shuttle in to provide air support for the assault. Far more appropriate for the character and the story.

True. Uhura's shuttlecraft piloting and tactical air support skills are legendary within the Trek canon, while this apparent ability to sing comes out of nowhere.

 

[Mytran]

Singing - yes.
Stripping nude and doing the fan dance - I must have missed those episodes

P.S.
Yes, I know she didn't do a whole lot of flying shuttlecraft either. But she has taken the helm once or twice

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

True. Uhura's shuttlecraft piloting and tactical air support skills are legendary within the Trek canon, while this apparent ability to sing comes out of nowhere.

I recall her singing several times during TOS.

--Sran