Spoilers Supergirl - Season 5

[Jayson1]

Superman has not been emasculated or turned into a wimp but it's true they have written him badly and are insecure about him outshining the series lead dueto him being such a iconic character but goodness hasn't this been talked to death by now? I suppose though it is kind of reflection that the show has had many creative issues over the years that it's enduring legacy might end up just being one fight scene between Supes and Supergirl. It's going to have a weird and strange legacy when people look back at it from the future.


Jason

 

[The Realist]

hasn't this been talked to death by now?

Yes. Yes, it has.

it's enduring legacy might end up just being one fight scene between Supes and Supergirl.

Nah. That's just the sad and irrational obsession of a few vocal manbabies.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If you fight a man, you kick in the balls a few times.

Women have very small balls.

Superman thought that he was fighting Zod.

Kal kept thinking he was delivering kill shot after kill shot with his little red booties, but Kara's balls were just too damn small.

 

[Christopher]

are insecure about him outshining the series lead

No, they're not "insecure," they just recognize that he's not the series lead so it's not his job to "outshine" anyone. That's just how stories work. Obviously he'll be the main hero on his own show, but this is not his show. This is not hard to understand.

I suppose though it is kind of reflection that the show has had many creative issues over the years that it's enduring legacy might end up just being one fight scene between Supes and Supergirl. It's going to have a weird and strange legacy when people look back at it from the future.

That's not its "legacy" just because a few sexists had their egos shattered by it and have been whining about it incessantly ever since. The few people who are still obsessed with that non-issue are not the majority of the show's fans, and clearly were never in its target audience to begin with.

 

[Jayson1]

No, they're not "insecure," they just recognize that he's not the series lead so it's not his job to "outshine" anyone. That's just how stories work. Obviously he'll be the main hero on his own show, but this is not his show. This is not hard to understand.




That's not its "legacy" just because a few sexists had their egos shattered by it and have been whining about it incessantly ever since. The few people who are still obsessed with that non-issue are not the majority of the show's fans, and clearly were never in its target audience to begin with.

Everyone knows he isn't the series lead but he isn't a nobody either. If you have Superman on you sort of expect to see him matter more than just some random guest star or even a random superhero. When Spock showed up on TNG they didn't treat him like he was just some Federation Ambassador that went rogue. They knew what he meant to Trek and that meant having a little bit of character worship in the episodes. Superman has never really been given any real big moments on the shows that reinforces his legend status. He is their basically their to support Kara and add nothing else to the episode.

What's weird is they did this guest star Superhero thing so much more better when The Flash showed up on season 1 of the show. I do sort of feel they are insecure. If he looks to good people will be wanting him to show up all the time and then people will want a Superman show and all of sudden Supergirl becomes less important which is of course is bad for a show that is about Supergirl. You see this happen all time. A character comes in and bumps the previous big deal out of the spotlight. Seven bumping Janeway down a notch,Xena surpassing Hercules etc.


Jason

 

[thribs]

It’s a shame Kara didn’t pick the timeline where they all died. That was the best one.

 

[Christopher]

Everyone knows he isn't the series lead but he isn't a nobody either. If you have Superman on you sort of expect to see him matter more than just some random guest star or even a random superhero.

What are you talking about??? They've given him plenty of important moments. Good grief, they literally had him propose to Lois and decide to start a family with her in Elseworlds. How does that not "matter?" For large portions of that crossover, it felt like we were glimpsing scenes from an ongoing Superman series that was running alongside all the others.

Superman has never really been given any real big moments on the shows that reinforces his legend status. He is their basically their to support Kara and add nothing else to the episode.

What's wrong with support? That's what real strength is for -- not feeding your own ego but supporting the people around you. Superman would be the first one to tell you that.

I've been a Superman fan all my life and I have zero problem with how he's been portrayed on Supergirl. He's the Superman I know, more so than any actor since Reeve (well, and Routh as of Crisis, when he finally got to do it right).

What's weird is they did this guest star Superhero thing so much more better when The Flash showed up on season 1 of the show.

Well, duh, because the Flash had his own show and Superman hadn't even been cast yet. Come on.

I do sort of feel they are insecure.

No, you're just projecting a very zero-sum, cynical view of the world onto their choices.

 

[thribs]

Superman was just putting over Supergirl, since it’s her show. Now that he’s finally getting his own show they don’t have to do that any more. If anything Supergirl should be putting him over.

 

[The Realist]

Everyone knows he isn't the series lead but he isn't a nobody either. If you have Superman on you sort of expect to see him matter more than just some random guest star or even a random superhero. When Spock showed up on TNG they didn't treat him like he was just some Federation Ambassador that went rogue. They knew what he meant to Trek and that meant having a little bit of character worship in the episodes. Superman has never really been given any real big moments on the shows that reinforces his legend status. He is their basically their to support Kara and add nothing else to the episode.

What's weird is they did this guest star Superhero thing so much more better when The Flash showed up on season 1 of the show. I do sort of feel they are insecure. If he looks to good people will be wanting him to show up all the time and then people will want a Superman show and all of sudden Supergirl becomes less important which is of course is bad for a show that is about Supergirl. You see this happen all time. A character comes in and bumps the previous big deal out of the spotlight. Seven bumping Janeway down a notch,Xena surpassing Hercules etc.

Winn, despite working alongside Kara for the previous year, was practically beside himself with hero worship when he met Superman. Ditto the entire DEO staff, who greeted him almost like an honor guard. He, of course, was friendly and respectful and disarming and humble to them. Because he's Superman.

Jefferson Pierce was overwhelmed to discover "the Superman thing -- it's real!" Out of all the heroes he met, Superman was the one who truly amazed him.

Oliver Queen felt the need to posture and puff out his chest to try to assert himself in Superman's presence. He barely knew who he was, but he knew (or sensed) enough to know he was in the presence of a legend.

The show has highlighted Superman's stature over and over.

 

[thribs]

Jefferson Pierce was overwhelmed to discover "the Superman thing -- it's real!" Out of all the heroes he met, Superman was the one who truly amazed him.

Only because in his universe he is a fictional character.

 

[The Realist]

Only because in his universe he is a fictional character.

A legendary fictional character, just as he is in our world -- a cultural symbol, a heroic exemplar, a moral icon. If you discovered he was real, would you only be impressed by the fact of his existence, or because of who he is and what he represents?

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Everyone knows he isn't the series lead but he isn't a nobody either. If you have Superman on you sort of expect to see him matter more than just some random guest star or even a random superhero. When Spock showed up on TNG they didn't treat him like he was just some Federation Ambassador that went rogue. They knew what he meant to Trek and that meant having a little bit of character worship in the episodes. Superman has never really been given any real big moments on the shows that reinforces his legend status. He is their basically their to support Kara and add nothing else to the episode.

Great comparison. There was no way TNG was going to guest-star Spock and have him essentially slump his shoulders and fall to the background. Factually, it was the other way around, with Spock as character and plot motivator front and center, which made his involvement memorable and sensible. None of the TNG actors (or audience, for that matter) were so hypersensitive about being the "star" / "bestest EVAR" that they did not recognize that its necessary / serving the story for a historically important character to shine. Obviously the agenda-driven showrunners of Supergirl would never treat their so-called Superman the way TNG treated Spock.

One of the Mount Rushmore-sized reasons the CW Superman is one of the poorest interpretations in film/TV history., and certainly does not mirror any version of Superman I've ever read in in comics dating back from his origin to significant character movements in the decades that followed. Next to Reeve and Cavill, all that is wrong with CW Superman is as bright as the sun.

I do sort of feel they are insecure. If he looks to good people will be wanting him to show up all the time and then people will want a Superman show and all of sudden Supergirl becomes less important which is of course is bad for a show that is about Supergirl. You see this happen all time. A character comes in and bumps the previous big deal out of the spotlight. Seven bumping Janeway down a notch,Xena surpassing Hercules etc.

All true; this occurred on Happy Days, where in its debut season, Henry Winkler's Fonz character was a mere supporting role, but when he became the breakout, he overshadowed Ron Howard's Richie--the character Happy Days was originally built around.

 

[theenglish]

I suppose though it is kind of reflection that the show has had many creative issues over the years that it's enduring legacy might end up just being one fight scene between Supes and Supergirl. It's going to have a weird and strange legacy when people look back at it from the future.

Jason

It will only be the legacy for a few incel types and those whose definition of masculinity is decades out of date.

 

[Jayson1]

What are you talking about??? They've given him plenty of important moments. Good grief, they literally had him propose to Lois and decide to start a family with her in Elseworlds. How does that not "matter?" For large portions of that crossover, it felt like we were glimpsing scenes from an ongoing Superman series that was running alongside all the others.




What's wrong with support? That's what real strength is for -- not feeding your own ego but supporting the people around you. Superman would be the first one to tell you that.

I've been a Superman fan all my life and I have zero problem with how he's been portrayed on Supergirl. He's the Superman I know, more so than any actor since Reeve (well, and Routh as of Crisis, when he finally got to do it right).




Well, duh, because the Flash had his own show and Superman hadn't even been cast yet. Come on.




No, you're just projecting a very zero-sum, cynical view of the world onto their choices.

I don't mind him being supportive. Like you said that is part of his character and I feel like they have nailed the Clark Kent part of the character down very well. What I mean is we have not really seen him basically kick but as Superman in away were your basically awed at just how cool he is. One of my favorite moments in the movie "Endgame" is when Captain Marvel shows up near the end and blows up the spaceship through shear strength. I am not even a huge Captain Marvel fan but that moment was awesome. Superman has never had that moment that sort of shows you why people almost think of the man as a God. To be fair I feel this has also been a issue with Supergirl at times as well. Might be he limits of a CW budget but these characters should be capable of some mind boggling action we just don't see that often.


Jason

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Superman has never had that moment that sort of shows you why people almost think of the man as a God. To be fair I feel this has also been a issue with Supergirl at times as well

Not really. Supergirl exhibiting otherworldly levels of power/acts had been seen early on in this series--a key example was her lifting / flying away with the massive Fort Rozz, but when it comes to their Superman (who was not a regular, so any clear-headed "writer" would take advantage of that "special guest star" status, especially for DC's most legendary/influential character), he was there in name only.

Might be he limits of a CW budget but these characters should be capable of some mind boggling action we just don't see that often.

Budget did not prevent the scene referred to above, so any lack of Superman doing one of the things he's best known for was a choice. In the greatest Superman portrayals (Reeve and Cavill), Superman was astoundingly strong, as that is an expected hallmark to any generation even mildly familiar with the character.

 

[TheMadCloner]

To be clear, I don't think Superman has been emasculated or "beaten" by Supergirl. That was never my concern. Don't label me as a "man baby" or whatever term is popularly applied. To the contrary, I'm a big fan of the show and Benoist in particular, and I feel her portrayal is and will be looked at as THE iconic one for Supergirl/Kara in the future.

My concern is that he is not nearly as strong as he should be, and this also applies to Supergirl, who the writers have also written poorly. Both characters should be stronger in terms of power. I don't care that Supergirl beat Superman in a fight; I do care that regular (augmented) humans beat both of them down regularly in the series (often without the presence of kryptonite), and I also care that both are shown to be increasingly mundane in terms of tasks accomplished. These characters should be allowed to do astounding tasks more often by the writers; give SG the opportunity to demonstrate her powers, and if you have SM in a guest role, give him similar opportunities to do so as well. SM should be more authoritative and assertive, with OR without the presence of SG. I feel like one of the biggest missed opportunities they've had was having an episode(s) centered around SM and SG disagreeing on the proper course of action - these are both very strong-minded characters in theory - and seeing how they would work through their disagreement. Luckily they still have a chance to write this storyline with the new SM series.

 

[TheMadCloner]

IDK - Worked for Scarlett Johansson.

Fair point.

 

[Kirk Prime]

No, they're not "insecure," they just recognize that he's not the series lead so it's not his job to "outshine" anyone. That's just how stories work. Obviously he'll be the main hero on his own show, but this is not his show. This is not hard to understand.

One can have Superman be more powerful and not be the series lead. By that logic, if he appeared on Batwoman, she would be able to kick his ass? That's even more ridiculous. Good stories respect all the characters and the fact that the weak writers thought that having Superman and Supergirl fight in the first place was stupid, but to have her actually win was a sign of insecurity. Again, his sole purpose was to look weak to make her look strong, and the result was a disservice to the character. No one expected Superman to show up and be the "main hero." But to simply use him as Supergirl's submissive doormat is not what fans of the character wanted either. There has been backlash that extends beyond this message board.

A strong woman doesn't need to kick a stronger man's ass to be strong. And again, I point to Superman's very first appearance on Supergirl for how to treat the character. In THAT episode, Superman was not made to look weak to make Supergirl strong. Both were given things to do and neither were made to look weak. But what these insecure writers did was not only have Superman lose, but they did it repeatedly, and made sure that Superman went around telling everyone who would listen how much stronger Supergirl was than he. It's out of character, no matter whose name is on the show.

I'm hoping the new show uses the crisis to actually make him what he is supposed to be, which is not some wimp, weak, submissive jobber.

 

[Kirk Prime]

I don't mind him being supportive.

I don't mind him being supportive either--that's not the problem. But the writers have chosen to sacrifice the character. Nothing they will ever do will make Supergirl stronger or superior, no matter how many times they demean Superman by putting those words in his mouth. But people are passionate about Superman and are outspoken when he is written this poorly. That's why despite a few people complaining about how bored they are, even an off the cuff comment about his weakness generates a passionate discussion.

You wouldn't be getting this with Booster Gold.

 

[The Realist]

To be clear, I don't think Superman has been emasculated or "beaten" by Supergirl. That was never my concern. Don't label me as a "man baby" or whatever term is popularly applied. To the contrary, I'm a big fan of the show and Benoist in particular, and I feel her portrayal is and will be looked at as THE iconic one for Supergirl/Kara in the future.

My concern is that he is not nearly as strong as he should be, and this also applies to Supergirl, who the writers have also written poorly. Both characters should be stronger in terms of power. I don't care that Supergirl beat Superman in a fight; I do care that regular (augmented) humans beat both of them down regularly in the series (often without the presence of kryptonite), and I also care that both are shown to be increasingly mundane in terms of tasks accomplished. These characters should be allowed to do astounding tasks more often by the writers; give SG the opportunity to demonstrate her powers, and if you have SM in a guest role, give him similar opportunities to do so as well. SM should be more authoritative and assertive, with OR without the presence of SG. I feel like one of the biggest missed opportunities they've had was having an episode(s) centered around SM and SG disagreeing on the proper course of action - these are both very strong-minded characters in theory - and seeing how they would work through their disagreement. Luckily they still have a chance to write this storyline with the new SM series.

To be clear in turn, I don't think the harsher responses in this thread were directed toward you. I don't agree with everything you write, but your comments don't display the irrationality, obsessiveness, and obvious issues with masculinity and misogyny that distinguish the true manbaby (as exemplified elsewhere in the thread).