While I've heard about VOY ruining the Borg, I've never heard that explicitly tied to 8472, but rather overusing them in general. I'll repeat my request for an actual source.
Species 8472 "neutered"
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While I've heard about VOY ruining the Borg, I've never heard that explicitly tied to 8472, but rather overusing them in general. I'll repeat my request for an actual source.
It's Voyager in general that gets named as ruining the Borg, so that means everything Borg related they did ruined them. That means the 8472 aliens beating them up is included in this ruination.
Apparently the notion that there was even ONE species out there that could casually annihilate the Borg was sacrilege.
Seven is like an iconic Trek character (like her or not). Voyager was travelling through Borg territory so the combination of that made the Borg feature quite a bit. Personally I've found the Borg interesting no matter what incarnation of Trek.
It's interesting because I have a totally opposite take to the notion that Species 8472 'emasculated' the Borg. For me I thought Species 8472 were treated badly (yep of course that is implicit with assimilation) but by Voyager too. They were victims and just happened to have been able to fight back. Obviously when they came into non fluid space they saw enemies. Hence that whole mental exchange with Kes about purging. Later their tactics changed but essentially why wouldn't they distrust other beings? As far as they were concerned the Federation represented a threat.
It's interesting because I have a totally opposite take to the notion that Species 8472 'emasculated' the Borg. For me I thought Species 8472 were treated badly (yep of course that is implicit with assimilation) but by Voyager too. They were victims and just happened to have been able to fight back. Obviously when they came into non fluid space they saw enemies. Hence that whole mental exchange with Kes about purging. Later their tactics changed but essentially why wouldn't they distrust other beings? As far as they were concerned the Federation represented a threat.
Well, it's true. As far as Borg fans are concerned the friggin teaser for "Scorpion" destroyed the Borg's Image. They were expecting the Borg to adapt to the 8472 easily and then annihilate them and were po'ed it never happened.
I wonder why it was inconceivable for some Borg fans to be presented with an adversary that could infect or destroy them?
Arturis was a great counterpoint. I mean when Janeway sided with the Borg who was to say other species didn't want them defeated? Were cheering 8472 on. I get the argument then falls to Species 8472 and their cleansing threat, but they were shown to be reasonable... er... later on.
Arturis was a great counterpoint. I mean when Janeway sided with the Borg who was to say other species didn't want them defeated? Were cheering 8472 on. I get the argument then falls to Species 8472 and their cleansing threat, but they were shown to be reasonable... er... later on.
Because TNG didn't explicitly show anyone who could do that. If TNG had introduced the 8472 aliens and had Q very clearly state "The Borg are powerful, more powerful than you. But there are several species out there just as powerful as them, some even moreso." then no one would be complaining.
Nothing presented in the franchise suggested that the Borg were the most powerful (corporeal) species, only perhaps the most powerful Our Heroes had encountered to date.
I still dispute that anyone specifically took 8472 as license to say that VOY ruined the Borg, and I haven't seen you provide anything to back up your claims.
I still dispute that anyone specifically took 8472 as license to say that VOY ruined the Borg, and I haven't seen you provide anything to back up your claims.
Then the audience shouldn't have complained when we saw them fight someone else and lose.
Do Borg fans say "Some Voyager stories ruined the Borg" or do they say "Voyager ruined the Borg"? Because the second is a statement of how VOY didn't tell one single good Borg story, including Scorpion.
Um, if your complaint is that people don't use precise enough language while criticising Voyager, then I'm not quite sure what to tell you.
I've been following the Star Trek community online since around 1999, and in all that time, I've never seen anyone say that the Borg were ruined because of "Scorpion" - heck, I've probably see more people say that "Scorpion" ruined Janeway, as they perceive her allying with the Borg instead of trying harder to open a dialogue with 8472 to be an unforgivable act of treason.
Usually, the three main culprits in ruining the Borg are seen as "Dark Frontier," for having the Delta Flyer easily rescue Seven from the Borg's biggest, most heavily fortified installation, "Unimatrix Zero," for showing that the Voyager crew don't even treat the Borg as much of a threat anymore, and "Endgame," for having Voyager completely annihilate the collective with a hastily-concoted plan.
My absolute favorite line regarding Borg overuse is Chakotay's "It's not every day we go looking for the Borg," in "Imperfection". I'd like to think the writers were being tongue-in-cheek when they put that in, but given some of their other blind spots, I'm not so sure.
Ah, but do Borg fans say "VOY didn't tell one single good Borg story?"
I think so, yes.
I have, from posters on this very forum.
All they needed to do was have Q pop up after Scorpion and say "By the way, if you're feeling bad about the alliance you don't need to. If you hadn't helped them the 8472 aliens would've destroyed the Galaxy, so you saved everyone. Kudos."
Don't agree. Seven is a good Borg Story and frankly I enjoyed the Borg influence in Voyager. As for unnamed and undocumented absolutes about Borg fans and what they apparently think about Voyager? Good for them, and boo hoo, lol
The only Borg episode I don't care for is Unimatrix. Not because of any perceived injustices by writers against the "mighty" Borg, but because I think the whole thing with Janeway, Tuvok, B'elanna, as well as Axil, and "unassimilated Borg Klingon dude" was cheesy.
I love Dark Frontier, with the flashbacks of the Seven's parents, and callbacks to the episode "The Raven," and especially the whole "Heist" aspect. It's such a well executed 2 parter; the dialogue, the cinematography (or whatever people call it for TV), the VFX, like the beautifully tense scene at the end where they fire into the portal, think that they failed to close it, and then suddenly have all the wreckage come pouring out of it... It's just so good.
I really like Endgame, too. It doesn't feel like an episode, but a movie, like a TNG movie. I don't think it was a quickly concocted plan. Admiral Janeway had to come at that particual point.
Favorite line:
"Stay out of my nebula"
I love Dark Frontier, with the flashbacks of the Seven's parents, and callbacks to the episode "The Raven," and especially the whole "Heist" aspect. It's such a well executed 2 parter; the dialogue, the cinematography (or whatever people call it for TV), the VFX, like the beautifully tense scene at the end where they fire into the portal, think that they failed to close it, and then suddenly have all the wreckage come pouring out of it... It's just so good.
I really like Endgame, too. It doesn't feel like an episode, but a movie, like a TNG movie. I don't think it was a quickly concocted plan. Admiral Janeway had to come at that particual point.
Favorite line:
"Stay out of my nebula"
To be fair, Dark Frontier isn't that bad of a story at all, generally speaking; my only two major issues are how it retcons Starfleet as knowing about the Borg in great detail over a decade before the events of "Q Who," and how easy the rescue of Seven at the end seems, especially considering that the Queen indirectly points out why the attempt should have ended with the Delta Flyer being blown to shreds as it approached the Unicomplex.
It was quickly concocted in the sense that not only was it not Admiral Janeway's original plan (which was just to get Voyager home earlier), but no-one even considered it until a discussion between the present and future versions of Janeway. Maybe if there'd been more of an explanation - such as the virus was the one that Icheb was originally implanted with, made infinitely more lethal by Admiral Janeway's future technology - or the entire second half of the story had been geared towards wiping out the Borg instead of it being treated as an afterthought then I wouldn't have much of an issue with it, but the way it's presented makes you wonder how the Borg lasted so long if wiping out the entire collective was so damn easy.
Fair enough.
In my mind the Borg were utterly dismantled. Many drones died, many more were freed, and went on to cause chaos in the areas of the galaxy in which they resided.
I do have one qualm about the episode(that a lot of people like for some strange reason): Harry Kim's speech, or at least part of it. He says "...so that we can all do something we believe in..." Destroying the Borg is something you believe in, Harry? What a bizarre thing to say. It's more like "an awful thing you have to do, but necessary to the survival of your race."
Guinan would like to have a word with you, Mr. Kim.
In my mind the Borg were utterly dismantled. Many drones died, many more were freed, and went on to cause chaos in the areas of the galaxy in which they resided.
I do have one qualm about the episode(that a lot of people like for some strange reason): Harry Kim's speech, or at least part of it. He says "...so that we can all do something we believe in..." Destroying the Borg is something you believe in, Harry? What a bizarre thing to say. It's more like "an awful thing you have to do, but necessary to the survival of your race."
Guinan would like to have a word with you, Mr. Kim.
