^Another good possibility.
Sovereign Class and Photon Torpedoes
- Thread starter DRACO
- Start date
I'l admit that my use of "never" was hyperbole. However in many instances the hero ship is hampered in one way or another. In the clip you reference later in your post, the 1701D was hampered by a powerful being who could ensure that every shot the "Husnock" (I put that in quotes because I'm not convinced that it is a real Husnock ship.) fired were perfect shots and that - at this point of the episode - no matter what the 1701D could never hurt it. In Yesterday's Enterprise, she could not maneuver enough because she had to stand between the 1701C and the Klingons. In the Arsenal of Freedom, the Enterprise could only get a good shot by tricking the drone into the atmosphere. In Generations, she was again hampered by an inability to properly maneuver and access to the ships shield frequency. Numerous other episodes show the 1701D firing only enough to hurt the enemy enough to get them to talk (i.e. The Wounded). In the Lakota and Defiant fight both ships held back, I believe the dialogue confirms it.
Are the MSD's of both ships at the same scale? If they are, then you may have a point; if they are not, you don't. Even if they are shorter, the Sovereign could have a new launcher design. She does have a very rapid rate of fire, as I'll show later.
The 1701D launches 6 torpedoes in 2 seconds. In this link here, at ≈7:20 the 1701E fires 4 photons in 1 second. At this link look at ≈1:10 the 1701E fires 3 quantum torpedoes in 1 second and it does it again a few seconds later. That's pretty good don't you think? It should also be a display of firepower at least equal to a Galaxy.
Actually, the Sovereign doesn't seem to have any photon torpedoes except in Nemesis, in which some of the launchers are literally bolted onto the hull in these silly-looking turret things. In First Contact and Insurrection she seems to have only the one torpedo launcher which is equipped with quantum torpedoes; for some reason this torpedo launcher either shares a space with or doubles as the Captain's Yacht, which means it can't be much bigger or more sophisticated than the E-D launcher.
It's worth remembering that the Defiant--which seems to have four forward torpedo tubes--is often described as one of the most heavily armed ships Starfleet has ever built. Considering those same launchers can be used for both photon and quantum torpedoes, I'm willing to bet there's no real difference between them and Enterprise can fire both from the main launcher. That makes the extra launchers in Nemesis kind of pointless.
It's worth remembering that the Defiant--which seems to have four forward torpedo tubes--is often described as one of the most heavily armed ships Starfleet has ever built. Considering those same launchers can be used for both photon and quantum torpedoes, I'm willing to bet there's no real difference between them and Enterprise can fire both from the main launcher. That makes the extra launchers in Nemesis kind of pointless.
Couldn't help...at least if you don't want to be one of the ones blowing up left and right. I don't think most of the ships we saw blow up are having a full explosive combination of their matter and antimatter supplies; impulse overload would be bad, but probably not as bad as a nearby torpedo detonation. You make a point in that the Jem'Hadar probably don't care one way or the other and take any shot they think will kill more of the enemy, but I doubt the Alliance is careless with the close-in torpedoes.
Well, maybe the Romulans
A little bout of counterarguments here; no offense meant.
Never established. We didn't see families or children in most TNG episodes; we might well have missed them during our E-E sightings in the movies, too.
The difference in space is minor, and we saw the E-E offer lavish diplomatic facilities quite on par with those of the E-D in ST:INS.
None of this is mentioned anywhere in the shows or movies. For all we know, the E-E has Type X phasers, no Type X+ exists, the reactor of the E-E isn't of particularly new design, and there is nothing particularly regenerative about the E-E shielding (apart from all Star Trek shielding being regenerative to some degree).
No superior maneuverability has been demonstrated. Both ships can turn on a coin or do barrel rolls or accelerate and decelerate rapidly at sublight and warp alike.
Sources are probably wrong. None of the classes has been associated with the Borg threat, and indeed the E-E was specifically held back when the Borg came. Also, Akira has design features more akin to E-D than E-E, and ships of that class have registry numbers far lower than those of, say, Voyager or Defiant.
The E-E model sports five cojoining plus two separate strips on the saucertop, four on saucer bottom, one on the underbelly, and (from NEM onwards) two per nacelle pylon, for a total of sixteen, so that much is right. Their type is unknown. The E-D sported a smaller total number, but had longer strips covering the same space as the five cojoining dorsal or two slightly separated ventral saucer strips of the E-E, and had short strips in more locations than the E-E has.
The E-E model originally had four regular torp tubes, in two pairs on the secondary hull; their combined firepower in ST:INS seemed similar to that of the two single E-D launchers. A fifth launcher might have been in place next to the aft shuttlebay in that movie already, or at least we saw an upper dorsal shot leave the ship, best explained by such a launcher. ST:NEM added four (three) verifiable launcher muzzles to those original four (five). Whether the extra launchers pack the same punch as the original ones is debatable, as two of them are in a tiny turret next to the upper shuttlebay. Perhaps they are unable to fire at warp, similar to how other small, short-barrel launchers have fired only sublight torps?
For rate-of-fire figures, Vanyel gave some for repeating shots. But there's also the demonstrated E-D ability to spit out up to five torps simultaneously, in less than a second ("Arsenal of Freedom" and "Yesterday's Enterprise").
Even Starfleet hospital ships have shields and phasers. And shields have always been "regenerative"; those on the E-E aren't particularly good against the villains seen in the movies, although we might have seen exceptionally powerful villains there.
Why just two? The E-E might be the ninth Sovereign built for all we know.
If they doubted the Captain, they should have just jailed or shot him and given the good ship to somebody else. They clearly didn't want the ship, either.
Which may mean the ship wasn't exceptionally good, even though it may have been good, perhaps even somewhat better than all other ships. No point dragging it to the battle, then, when dozens of almost as good ships were already there. Or it may mean the E-E was a real lemon and no good in battle.
Hmh? I don't think so.
In any case, "heavily armed" would be a relative measure. Rambo was heavily armed when single-handedly firing a M-60 machine gun from the hip - possibly the most heavily armed foot-mobile infantryman at that point, fictionally or in reality. He obviously wasn't the most heavily armed thing in US arsenal, though.
Timo Saloniemi
Never established. We didn't see families or children in most TNG episodes; we might well have missed them during our E-E sightings in the movies, too.
The difference in space is minor, and we saw the E-E offer lavish diplomatic facilities quite on par with those of the E-D in ST:INS.
None of this is mentioned anywhere in the shows or movies. For all we know, the E-E has Type X phasers, no Type X+ exists, the reactor of the E-E isn't of particularly new design, and there is nothing particularly regenerative about the E-E shielding (apart from all Star Trek shielding being regenerative to some degree).
No superior maneuverability has been demonstrated. Both ships can turn on a coin or do barrel rolls or accelerate and decelerate rapidly at sublight and warp alike.
Sources are probably wrong. None of the classes has been associated with the Borg threat, and indeed the E-E was specifically held back when the Borg came. Also, Akira has design features more akin to E-D than E-E, and ships of that class have registry numbers far lower than those of, say, Voyager or Defiant.
The E-E model sports five cojoining plus two separate strips on the saucertop, four on saucer bottom, one on the underbelly, and (from NEM onwards) two per nacelle pylon, for a total of sixteen, so that much is right. Their type is unknown. The E-D sported a smaller total number, but had longer strips covering the same space as the five cojoining dorsal or two slightly separated ventral saucer strips of the E-E, and had short strips in more locations than the E-E has.
The E-E model originally had four regular torp tubes, in two pairs on the secondary hull; their combined firepower in ST:INS seemed similar to that of the two single E-D launchers. A fifth launcher might have been in place next to the aft shuttlebay in that movie already, or at least we saw an upper dorsal shot leave the ship, best explained by such a launcher. ST:NEM added four (three) verifiable launcher muzzles to those original four (five). Whether the extra launchers pack the same punch as the original ones is debatable, as two of them are in a tiny turret next to the upper shuttlebay. Perhaps they are unable to fire at warp, similar to how other small, short-barrel launchers have fired only sublight torps?
For rate-of-fire figures, Vanyel gave some for repeating shots. But there's also the demonstrated E-D ability to spit out up to five torps simultaneously, in less than a second ("Arsenal of Freedom" and "Yesterday's Enterprise").
Even Starfleet hospital ships have shields and phasers. And shields have always been "regenerative"; those on the E-E aren't particularly good against the villains seen in the movies, although we might have seen exceptionally powerful villains there.
Why just two? The E-E might be the ninth Sovereign built for all we know.
If they doubted the Captain, they should have just jailed or shot him and given the good ship to somebody else. They clearly didn't want the ship, either.
Which may mean the ship wasn't exceptionally good, even though it may have been good, perhaps even somewhat better than all other ships. No point dragging it to the battle, then, when dozens of almost as good ships were already there. Or it may mean the E-E was a real lemon and no good in battle.
Hmh? I don't think so.
In any case, "heavily armed" would be a relative measure. Rambo was heavily armed when single-handedly firing a M-60 machine gun from the hip - possibly the most heavily armed foot-mobile infantryman at that point, fictionally or in reality. He obviously wasn't the most heavily armed thing in US arsenal, though.
Timo Saloniemi
The very first time we see the Enterprise-E open fire, is when she slams three Photon torpedoes into the Borg Cube as she drops out of warp, taking out the weapon turret firing on the Defiant.
In Insurrection she fires several Photon torpedoes from her aft launchers at the pursuing Sona vessels.
In Nemesis she has a lot more Photon torpedo launchers as well as firing a hail of torpedoes from them during the fight with the Scimitar.
ok ok true, but the only thing I really said that hasn't been confiremd is some Technical manual or on screen at some point is the changes
made in nemisis, and the evidence is pretty solid there, it's obvious she was beefed up, I think with that, it's very hard
to arue the new phaser arrays, only the torps are really up for question and even then, the case against them isn't good, because
either they are there as observed from Nemisis or we have some really bad mistakes going on in the film...
many sources have said it's type XII arrays, as well as the original torps...
so lets be conservative here, and reduce the added weapons abit...no actual forget all of them lets go with the original configuration
which is:
12 Type XII Arrays
1 Quantum Torpedo Turret
4 Photon torp launchers (I'm assuming 2fore two 2aft but I don't remember where they where)
so we just lost 4 arrays and 4 launchers, bummer but thats still more than enough to outmatch the 3
launchers as shown in the TNG Technical manual, and I'm pretty sure one of those isn't available when the ship
has both sections docke, meaning only used after saucer separation...
also, yes she's new so yes she'll have new tech but, the Akira was new, she didn't have Quantums nor Type XII phasers..... and she was built for war
in fact, discounting the Prommy, which is a prototype, only the Defiant and Sovy have Quantums and only the Sovy has the new phasers.
ok now theres a lot of replies here so I'll try to answer them all hope I don't miss anything...
but first of all, saucer separation, while a Tactical advantage wasn't designed so much for Multi-Vector Assualt as it was to
get the civilians (aboard the saucer) out of harms way in case of a warp core breach or large battle, thats why despite this
the Prommy was the first ship credited with MVA, also of note, remember how long it took to separate? not good lol
50 meter launchers? first of all I doubt they are 50 meters which is what, roughly 150ft? actaully I think more that that because 1 meter isn't exactly 3 foot but more
yeah even for the size of the Galaxy, I doubt there that big, especially with all the facilities she has...
but bigger =/= better, and again the Galaxy only has 3 luanchers, 2 available when not seperated
compared to the Sovys Turret plus 8 launchers (4 launchers being conservative)
oh are you talking about the launcher or the Turret, because they liked firing two Quantums from that turret an awefull lot...
as for the other launchers, it's hard to say, if we just assume that since most launchers of the era could fire 2 at a time (tubes being only one)
then.... thats allot of torpedoes, but if we just tone that down to one.. and take the 4/sec rating they gave us for the turret...
we have have thease values, and these are just forward salvos btw)
(non upgraded sec luancher 1) 4+2= 6 torps
(non upgraded sec laucher 2) 4+4= 8 torps
(upgraded 1 per launcher) 4+3= 7 torps
(upgraded 2 per launcher) $+6 = 10 torps
even if you take the smallest value, thats twice the Galxays combined fore and aft launchers...
and I jjust listed the Sovs foward ones, unupgraded has 2 aft and and upgraded 5 aft
so... you have +2-4 more torps counting aft unupgraded and 5-10 more counting upgraded, she's a beast lol
now I doubt we will ever see all of them fire at once, because of firing arcs and load time...
good point, allthough I wonder if thats just a setting, Conformal shielding I do believe it's called, because I remember reading about it somewhere...but I dunno I'll look it up later tonight
sure you can offload them but if the Galaxy was designed to compliment whole families, I seriously doubt a rather militaristic stance was taken when
they designed her...
well theres going to always be risk exploring the unknown, but theres a difference between a tense moment or
being caught of gaurd and all out war... how many times have they thought they where safe and all and then plot twist and theres no time to evacuate...?
look, I never said the Sovy had absolutly no diplomatic capabilities, I just said it doesn't have the vast accomdations of a Galaxy, size isn't all to that,
spacious and luzurious quarters help ease tension, cramped no, comfortable? probably more so if they where on a Galaxy class...
and yes, the Sovy will still have scientific facilites and what not, the Enterpise is an explorer by nature, but military prowess was obviously a big concern...
you don't want to have to mothball a hip that new and of that size after wartime... but she was designed with the Bord the Dominion and other threats in mind,
so while war wasn't a big consideration with the Galaxy, it was with the Sovy being one of it's design specifications, rivaling
the importance for exploration, but no it's not 100% reserved for war like say the Defiant
heh, X+ plus could be type XI but chances are it isn't, but regardless of what X+ should be equivalent to...whats so bad about the Techhnical manual? which isn't the only source btw to make the connection.. but regardless if we are oing to argue
about weather the Sovy has type XII phasers... there are amny sources that state that, in fact they neerly all do, I can't think of one that
says something different, one of them if I can remember right, clearly being Star Trek The Magazine issue 1, I forget which publication mentioned
the new warp core, probably one of the Technical manuals, which again... I really don't see a problem with, as from what all i can tell, they are accurate expect maybe
some typos that may be hiding I haven't found a problem with them..
in fact I'm looking at my copy right now, it obviously met Roddenberry's aproval, he did the Intro, and looky there,
by RICK STERNBACH, who worked for Roddenbarry, during TNG, made desigen the Galor class, the Intrepid, the Promethius, various PADDs and the like, hmm
how much more Cannon can you get?
and I said starbases and ouposted previously used them, many no doubt still do but if they can fir on a starship now, I would assume there are even more powerfull arrays on them like
the ones DS9 has, bacause DS9 has many phasers, not all of them are type XI, I wish I had my ds9 stuff with me, moving sucks
...ehh well, every little bit helps, you're right the it's negligable unless say your opponent is as bulky as the Galxy lol, but seriously, I think it's more of a harder-to-hit mind set...
many like, Star Trek The Magazine, issue 1, Eneterprise E briefing,
as for it taking time yes, yes it would, but not all designs are set in stone during developement it's an on-going process, as we've seen adapting launchers for Quantums or
say the automodulated shielding that was developed quickly and installed on most newer ships... as a borg counter-measure,
now even in DS9, it didn't take years for them to create a countermeasure for the "shield peircing" poleron beams... it seems that it really doesn't take them long to progress, as for
a whole ship design, proects are mothballed, brought back out, and again I forgot which book mentioned the warp core but,
it also mentioned that that was a stalling point...
so as their building this ship, as a future propsoal for severe threats, things happen that influence to design as it's being developed obviously, I mean when they tell you it's designed to combat
threats like the borg and the dominion ok, but that doesn't mean the whole design is to combat one major power... r that thats when the history of the project started
also, what episode did we first see the borg, early to mid TNG?
and just where did he say that? Star Trek the Magazine and other sources say otherwise, and I think he was just responsable for the appearence wasn't he? either maybe he wasn't aware of other plans for the weapons, or it was a error on his part, he is human after all, when so
many other cannon sources disagree, it's hard to say they are the same, and "same type" could have just meant they where phasers.
well, since there are supposedly what, two Sovies running around... yeah I'm sure some Galaxy classes did recieve some quanums, but I tought we where comparing the whole classes of them and not specific ships, like the Defiant has a cloaking device but no other Defiant class vessel does.. and even if you give the Galxy
Quantums, you don't have the 4/sec turret or the extra launchers...
I mean, if we are going to talk about what we can give them lets just give them Transphasic Torpedos and them them destroy eachother at the same time.... :/
no I mean the Sovy, which was constructed after the Prommy as far as I'm aware, it's mentioned in one of the Technical manuals, or something like that that she has them, allthough I dobt they are as effect as the Prommies due to the size of the shield that has to be generated and all, I wish I remember what reference it was, but it had cannon writers like
the TNG Tech manual does...
so yeah she has them or was supposed to, they don't hold up well though....
unerwarshp? lol well I do think allot of people forgot that she is an explorer just like those before her, but she was again designed with a strong militaristic view as well, and I would imagine that
with all the newer tech, and everything, she would wouldn't be cheap on resources, newer flag-ship worthy vessels rarely ever are...
also of note, her naccelles (ST Magazine) are designed to stop the damage of the fabric of space as was mentioned in TNG, so unless the Galaxys got upggraded, they may seem to go so slow because they aren't allowd to go any faster?
then if you have to you have to....
but looking at the warp values in ST The Magazine and other sources, she is faster, but I get what your saying at times it seems as if she's to fast....
I think it isn't ust the speed of the SOv here, I think theres other factors...
I don't think there was anything wrong with the design though, if there wasa maor flaw, we'd know by now, there would be a problem with the E, and it doesn't need any with
the situations it finds it self in... lol
if there was and they fixed it, then it's fixable so still... unless it cost to many resources...
hmmm well I thought that phrase was in first contact, or was that chasing asteroids? lol
if from FC, its easily explained, as for Innsurrection, not sure, off course, thats hard evidence because theres no time reference, another as in ust that all month or two or the whole course of the war?
honestly, looking at the Sovy andit's capabilities and them being there during the war, if thats the case, I'd say plot device... cause they could have and should have sent a Galaxy not expecting fowl play but then... we wouldn't have had a movie would we?
tech advancement? if not ith a Turret firing 4 at a time max,.... I doubt the others would have to be that fast, not being the main heavy weapon.... if all the alaxy has are those 3 photon launchers then,
yeah I can see them goin faster than a ship that uses them as secondary lunchers...
not so... not so at all
Omega Particle > Warp Core
Transphasic Torpedo > whole savo of Quantum torps
Promethius class > Nebula
forward firing power of the Defiant > that of many larger ships (to a degree)
list goes on....
and what ship ever has?
we have never seen a Fed ship, fire all fully loaded lunchers and and fire on all arrays... and for mentioned I already stated we probaably never will
also, loading time, if you can load two torps in half the time it takes for 4 (maybe theres a bigger time gap...)
oh like pwered by nVidia or AMD or Intel (ewww) stickers on PC cases lol
ok obviously theres some difference in space with the laucher in relation to the Yacht, again, size does not equal better, the E-D fires what 2 maybe three torps per launcher? and the Sovys turret is rated for 4 at a time so
witout knowledge of loading/reloading/preparation times, and oing on speed the E-E turret is more advanced than the E-D launcher,
for those comparing speed of fireing and torps, keep in mind the difference between Photon and Quantum torps, as well as the fact they keep showing off that turret, don't forget those other three lauchers in front (2 non upgraded)
that the Sov has but rarely uses
so you have 4 Quantums + 2-4 Photons unpgraded/3-6 upgraded per forward salvo... and this isn't conidering the possible that those are tripple luanchers like
what I think the E-D has wish are either 2 or three per launcher...
and for those so still say the presence of families on the Galaxy isn't confirmed, please come on, what about Alexander and all the other children on the E-D, they had a school for crying out loud :/....
oh yeah, cause that would go over so well.....
he didn't do anything wrong, it was a fear that because he as once assimilitaed the borg miht use it to their advantage....
over all or per square meter, if the latter, then duh, that little ship is a beast, for her size, nothing but weapons...
also, the Defiant came out before the Sov...
a lemon? riht.... look, nobody said she was an end-all ubership... as good as she is, she's only one ship, wars are one with fleets, strength in numbers... they only had 1 confirmed possibly two sovs at the time, maybe they didn't want to lose her, sending her into other situations that would take a couple other ships, so they instead could go fight, cause...
as good as she is at least IMO, if she is mobbed in war by a bunch of ships, she dies anyway....
ships on the front line don't last long.... unless the plot says they do lol
well I'll bbl hopefully I replied to everything directed at me or revelent to the dicusiion which, hey isn't it supposed to be about weather they ave her all Quantums vs some photons... cause it seems to me
the subject is Galaxy vs Sovy LMFAO, which IMO is pointless because even if you dont think the Sovy is as good as generally accepted, being a newer ship with upgraded systems, is more than a match for the aging Galaxy, so the Sovy wins even considering
a very conservative list of specs...
Edit: oh and Regenerative Shielding doesn't simply mean the shields will regenerate with time, all of them do that, with regenerative shielding, there's secondary generators, win the first shield goes down a second one takes its place while the first one recharges.....
drake, I won't respond to your entire post, because some of it is written in such a way to make me believe you are uninformed (no offense). For example, you say we never see a ship fire all weapons at once, when we clearly have, and I posted a link on the first page. We see Defiant do the same as well.
Now, your idea of power seems to be to count torpedo launchers and think that 4 is better than 2, which is false. Do you think that 4 launchers on Excelsior are superior to two on the Galaxy-class? The reason Galaxy has 2 is because it doesn't need any more. It loads 10 torpedoes every 5 seconds, why would she need more? It's like giving every soldier in the army 5 rifles and saying that soldier is better than one with 1 rifle, well the other 4 are not necessary, because now we have magazines which we can use to replace ammunition quickly. There is no need to carry extra rifles like, say, during the Revolutionary war. That's how it is with the two launchers on Galaxy
I already wrote above that the reason Sov has so many is because they are obviously inferior to the huge Galaxy-class launchers, which is demonstrated on screen by their limited fire, she never fires more than 4 from main turret, and I think 2 from secondary ones, at a slower rate than Galaxy. And I don't even want to talk about the glued on ones above secondary shuttle bay and docking port.
If this torpedo inferiority wasn't the case, she would just have two, I forward, one aft, because that's all you need.
Now, your idea of power seems to be to count torpedo launchers and think that 4 is better than 2, which is false. Do you think that 4 launchers on Excelsior are superior to two on the Galaxy-class? The reason Galaxy has 2 is because it doesn't need any more. It loads 10 torpedoes every 5 seconds, why would she need more? It's like giving every soldier in the army 5 rifles and saying that soldier is better than one with 1 rifle, well the other 4 are not necessary, because now we have magazines which we can use to replace ammunition quickly. There is no need to carry extra rifles like, say, during the Revolutionary war. That's how it is with the two launchers on Galaxy
I already wrote above that the reason Sov has so many is because they are obviously inferior to the huge Galaxy-class launchers, which is demonstrated on screen by their limited fire, she never fires more than 4 from main turret, and I think 2 from secondary ones, at a slower rate than Galaxy. And I don't even want to talk about the glued on ones above secondary shuttle bay and docking port.
If this torpedo inferiority wasn't the case, she would just have two, I forward, one aft, because that's all you need.
As for doubting my launcher size comment, I did some calculations, and got the following:
Galaxy Class
Aft Launcher: 43.7 Meters
Forward: 36.8m
Sovereign:
All Launchers: 16.2 Meters, and this is a generous estimate, you could argue that they are even smaller. The ones that are glued on are not on msd, but I'd say probably like 5 meters.
They are clearly not the same class.
Galaxy Class
Aft Launcher: 43.7 Meters
Forward: 36.8m
Sovereign:
All Launchers: 16.2 Meters, and this is a generous estimate, you could argue that they are even smaller. The ones that are glued on are not on msd, but I'd say probably like 5 meters.
They are clearly not the same class.
Plecostomus
Commodore
My take on the situation:
The E-D was configured out of the yard as an long-term exploration ship, for deep-deep-space missions. Because of this she had to carry consumables like torpedoes onboard. Yes they could replicate more, but that's energy intensive.
The deep-deep-space mission never happened (Farpoint) so she was recalled and some of her "excess" inventory offloaded as now she could zip to a Starbase for resupply.
The E-E on the other hand was configured out of the yard for combat because Starfleet was on a war-footing. From the Dominion War to Borg Incursion to Sona Nonsense to the Romulan Unpleasantness the E-E has had little time to Boldly Go... every time she Boldly Goes she runs into a combat situation, and has to return to the yard for another refit. No wonder the profiles don't match anymore.
Now assuming that Starfleet eventually gets back to Boldly Going and exploring the Sovvies will either be mothballed or refit for scientific and deep-space exploration. That includes removing some torpedo bays, adujusting inventorys and internal layouts. More labs, diplomatic rooms, possible civilian quarters...
Comparing the Galaxy as seen in TNG and the Sovvie as seen in the movies is pointless unless you factor in the political enviroment and mission profile, as I did above.
The E-D was configured out of the yard as an long-term exploration ship, for deep-deep-space missions. Because of this she had to carry consumables like torpedoes onboard. Yes they could replicate more, but that's energy intensive.
The deep-deep-space mission never happened (Farpoint) so she was recalled and some of her "excess" inventory offloaded as now she could zip to a Starbase for resupply.
The E-E on the other hand was configured out of the yard for combat because Starfleet was on a war-footing. From the Dominion War to Borg Incursion to Sona Nonsense to the Romulan Unpleasantness the E-E has had little time to Boldly Go... every time she Boldly Goes she runs into a combat situation, and has to return to the yard for another refit. No wonder the profiles don't match anymore.
Now assuming that Starfleet eventually gets back to Boldly Going and exploring the Sovvies will either be mothballed or refit for scientific and deep-space exploration. That includes removing some torpedo bays, adujusting inventorys and internal layouts. More labs, diplomatic rooms, possible civilian quarters...
Comparing the Galaxy as seen in TNG and the Sovvie as seen in the movies is pointless unless you factor in the political enviroment and mission profile, as I did above.
You named one source, not "amny": Star Trek: The Magazine, and it's not in a section authored by anyone who had anything to do with the design of the ship as far as I can tell. It's probably text by Penny Juday or someone. It's not from a movie script, it's not documented from any backstage source; it's not from anywhere.
When a magazine article is directly authored by someone like Rick Sternbach, we should at least take it into consideration, but unattributed text in a tie-in magazine is not a "source" worth taking seriously.
There are no canonical sources that claim this type of phaser even exists, let alone that they are mounted to Enterprise-E. John Eaves made the comparison I described before in the Sketchbook, obviously not intending to convey new or superior phasers by giving them an identical look--unlike the case with Defiant on DS9, in which the script specified that the phasers should appear different somehow from what we've seen before. The phasers don't appear to me to be physically larger than those on Enterprise-D, or to be functioning in a different manner, and while direct comparisons are lacking, I see no evidence of exceptional effectiveness demonstrated by the movies either.
You're claiming a type of phasers larger than the largest ones mounted to starbases not only exists but is mounted on a ship type probably designed relatively few years after the Galaxy, and your source for this is what I believe to be an unattributed line in a now-defunct tie-in magazine--a magazine which also had a tendency to thoughtlessly reproduce errors from other sources, such as thinking the Saber-class starship is 372 meters long or that Voyager was over a million tons.
There are no other sources. This is listed under "False Canon" at EAS for a reason, you know.
OTOH, the two ships could be meant for the very same mission and situation. It's just that they take slightly different technological approaches - one covers with quantity what it cannot afford to do with quality.
But it could also be argued that they were always intended to fight in completely different leagues. The E-E certainly looks more like a successor to the Excelsior class than to the Galaxy one - possibly inheriting the former's rather militant TNG era role. Which makes one wonder what sort of a successor Starfleet has got planned for the Galaxy class, and when it's scheduled to come out. The early 2400s, perhaps?
Timo Saloniemi
But it could also be argued that they were always intended to fight in completely different leagues. The E-E certainly looks more like a successor to the Excelsior class than to the Galaxy one - possibly inheriting the former's rather militant TNG era role. Which makes one wonder what sort of a successor Starfleet has got planned for the Galaxy class, and when it's scheduled to come out. The early 2400s, perhaps?
Timo Saloniemi
^I think the Excelsior was a definite inspiration artistically.
Few more comments:
What supports the war idea? Her registry and design suggest to me she is probably from the late 2350s/early 2360s; I see no reason to conclude she is new. It is possible she was designed under the looming threat of the Cardassians, I guess.
Already disproven.
You keep saying it, but there's no evidence to back it up.
I'm going to take the DS9 Technical Manual over your opinion, because that's what it says.
That's one...such as it is.
It was never said of the ship that it was designed for that in the first place, and the class ship had been in space for years by the time the Dominion was first encountered.
"Q Who?" in TNG second season, I believe.
What's the class have to do with ordnance? You're going to suggest that Enterprise-E received special fancy ordnance while she was running around not fighting the war, and the Galaxy-class ships we saw in the battles would not have gotten the Q-torps? That would be a bit silly of Starfleet, wouldn't it?
Those books were published years before VOY: "Message in a Bottle" ever aired!
That episode takes place years in the chronology after Enterprise-E was flying, let alone the first ship of her class, and Prometheus is still a prototype and specified as singular.
There is absolutely no reason to think Prometheus is older than Sovereign.
You keep saying that, but where's the evidence to support she is any more "militaristic" than any other ship of the line? You know, Defiant is the only ship we know of for sure that Starfleet ever built specifically to fight, and obviously her differences are many.
I am not sure. The changes for ST Nemesis were pretty significant; changing the nacelle orientation would have been a big job. It is possible ships of the class had some problems if Enterprise-E was changed so dramatically after having been in space 5-6 years or so at max, but they may be corrected now.
That's mainly what I meant. Available fuel storage plays into this, but so does ability to self-replenish, plus lots of other factors. I am sure a Sovereign-class ship is capable of long-range missions by Starfleet standards, but I think they send the "two kitchen sink" ships, with civilian specialists and room for even more specialized equipment and stuff like that, out on the really long independent probes into deep space.
It is a little bit of a bummer that Enterprise-E did not once really get to explore the unknown in the movies. The first TNG movie takes place at Earth, the next in territory where Starfleet and pals have already been doing business, and the last in Rom space and border areas. Picard even has a line in Insurrection where he complains, something like "remember when we used to be explorers?"
Few more comments:
What supports the war idea? Her registry and design suggest to me she is probably from the late 2350s/early 2360s; I see no reason to conclude she is new. It is possible she was designed under the looming threat of the Cardassians, I guess.
Already disproven.
You keep saying it, but there's no evidence to back it up.
I'm going to take the DS9 Technical Manual over your opinion, because that's what it says.
That's one...such as it is.
It was never said of the ship that it was designed for that in the first place, and the class ship had been in space for years by the time the Dominion was first encountered.
"Q Who?" in TNG second season, I believe.
What's the class have to do with ordnance? You're going to suggest that Enterprise-E received special fancy ordnance while she was running around not fighting the war, and the Galaxy-class ships we saw in the battles would not have gotten the Q-torps? That would be a bit silly of Starfleet, wouldn't it?
Those books were published years before VOY: "Message in a Bottle" ever aired!
That episode takes place years in the chronology after Enterprise-E was flying, let alone the first ship of her class, and Prometheus is still a prototype and specified as singular.
There is absolutely no reason to think Prometheus is older than Sovereign.
You keep saying that, but where's the evidence to support she is any more "militaristic" than any other ship of the line? You know, Defiant is the only ship we know of for sure that Starfleet ever built specifically to fight, and obviously her differences are many.
I am not sure. The changes for ST Nemesis were pretty significant; changing the nacelle orientation would have been a big job. It is possible ships of the class had some problems if Enterprise-E was changed so dramatically after having been in space 5-6 years or so at max, but they may be corrected now.
That's mainly what I meant. Available fuel storage plays into this, but so does ability to self-replenish, plus lots of other factors. I am sure a Sovereign-class ship is capable of long-range missions by Starfleet standards, but I think they send the "two kitchen sink" ships, with civilian specialists and room for even more specialized equipment and stuff like that, out on the really long independent probes into deep space.
It is a little bit of a bummer that Enterprise-E did not once really get to explore the unknown in the movies. The first TNG movie takes place at Earth, the next in territory where Starfleet and pals have already been doing business, and the last in Rom space and border areas. Picard even has a line in Insurrection where he complains, something like "remember when we used to be explorers?"
I'm going to assume that you used the MSD's of both ships and made each one to the same scale (example 1CM = 1M) for both. Otherwise your calculations would be off.
We're using the same scale to determine launcher length; could there be even the slightest, most minuscule chance that the launchers on the 1701E are smaller because the launchers are more advanced, and therefore equal to, or maybe better than, the ones used on a Galaxy class?
And as been stated in dialogue that the Defiant carriers a big punch in a small body. Proving that bigger is not better. The desktop computer I'm using right now is much smaller than the ENIAC, and it has much more processing power than it's Great Great Grandfather (Not sure how many generations of computer there were between then and now but that should be sufficient.); hell I even think I read that my desk top has more computing power than the ones on the Apollo space crafts.
Why would it prove that? The Defiant is good for a small ship, but she's never torn big capital ships a new one, the way the larger hero ships have done. The damage she dishes out on Cardassians cruisers in her titular episode is rather superficial, and she never quite kills a capital ship in any other episode, either. Bigger does seem to be better in that respect.
Although bigger certainly ain't better for survivability in those later battles. But that probably has got more to do with who's a hero and who's not.
Timo Saloniemi
this thread seems to have taken on a different meaning, from whether or not the E-E fired photons (which it did, both in Insurrection and Nemesis).
As far as the Galaxy VS Sovereign debate goes, the Sovereign INITIALLY is more powerful. It has burst fire photorp tubes and rapid fire quantums. Better shields, and more manuverability..
The sovereign class seems to have a bias towards war. As far as its diplomatic capability goes, it probably is almost equal to a Galaxy. It could fit just as many VIP quarters and luxury rec areas that a Galaxy has. However, i've head from numerous sources, including backstage sources, that it wasn't constructed with families in mind which makes sense as it came out during the dominion wars. That though doesn't mean it can't be modified to carry them. The Sovereign class although not as many decks as a Galaxy is still a really big ship.
As far as tactical capability...the sovereign initially has superior strength. it has more advanced computing ability, more advanced shielding, and more advanced weaponry than the initial batch of Galaxy class'. That said though, newer galaxy class' are big enough to support ALL of those advances and then some. There is a distinct advantage to being a bigger ship: longevity and flexability. In that right the galaxy class has a BIG advantage over the Sovereign. It would be easy to refit a galaxy with more modern systems, and even easier to build newer galaxy ships with those systems already installed.
push comes to shove, the galaxy is pretty much equal to a sovereign, with tthe advantage being flexability and the ability to be refitted with better weapons. But more or less they are the same, the Sovereign just has more of a military role..
As far as the Galaxy VS Sovereign debate goes, the Sovereign INITIALLY is more powerful. It has burst fire photorp tubes and rapid fire quantums. Better shields, and more manuverability..
The sovereign class seems to have a bias towards war. As far as its diplomatic capability goes, it probably is almost equal to a Galaxy. It could fit just as many VIP quarters and luxury rec areas that a Galaxy has. However, i've head from numerous sources, including backstage sources, that it wasn't constructed with families in mind which makes sense as it came out during the dominion wars. That though doesn't mean it can't be modified to carry them. The Sovereign class although not as many decks as a Galaxy is still a really big ship.
As far as tactical capability...the sovereign initially has superior strength. it has more advanced computing ability, more advanced shielding, and more advanced weaponry than the initial batch of Galaxy class'. That said though, newer galaxy class' are big enough to support ALL of those advances and then some. There is a distinct advantage to being a bigger ship: longevity and flexability. In that right the galaxy class has a BIG advantage over the Sovereign. It would be easy to refit a galaxy with more modern systems, and even easier to build newer galaxy ships with those systems already installed.
push comes to shove, the galaxy is pretty much equal to a sovereign, with tthe advantage being flexability and the ability to be refitted with better weapons. But more or less they are the same, the Sovereign just has more of a military role..
The Sovereign doesn't appear to have "more of a military role" at all. It lacks any of the specializations found on vessels that DO have a military role, like the Defiant's simplified interiors, a noticeable lack of science labs and creature comforts, ablative armor, etc.
Actually, the Sovereign appears to be exactly what Eaves described it: a long overdue replacement for the Excelsior class. It's more of a generalist workhorse like the old Constitution class and very much unlike the long-range fully loaded Galaxy.
Actually, the Sovereign appears to be exactly what Eaves described it: a long overdue replacement for the Excelsior class. It's more of a generalist workhorse like the old Constitution class and very much unlike the long-range fully loaded Galaxy.
That's pretty much what I consider the truth; additional tactical ability is just a reflection of recent advancements combined with the more hostile environment of the 2370s. I think it's more or less taken for granted that the Constitution and Excelsior was quite well-armed for their day as well.
I imagine that the Galaxy is capable of operating independently for much longer if need be, but that both the Galaxy and Sovereign are generally capable of the same missions. It seemed that Excelsiors were still being assigned missions similar to the Enterprise-D in TNG, just with range limits in mind. The Sovereign, being smaller in mass, would probably just have less of each facility that the Galaxy had.
"Jack of all trades, master of none" anyone?
