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Spoilers (Somewhat minor spoilers) Guys, Lower Decks has NOT decanonized Discovery. Or SNW.

Way behind on the show, but saw the internet blowing up about how DSC (and presumably SNW, most of the Short Treks installments, the upcoming Academy show, and any other direct spinoffs of it) had been retconned to be set in a parallel universe all along.

Having very mixed feelings about the modern shows, esp. in. regards to how they break canon (sometimes for seemingly no real constructive reason), I do very much like the idea of them being AU material, since that would resolve almost all the discrepancies and "allow" for the creative freedom that the current Powers That Be want without stepping on the toes of older shows and movies (heck, "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow" [SNW] literally established that SNW isn't in the original prime timeline, anyways, so I'm a little surprised we didn't have the "it's not canon" theories and debates until now).

All that said, I seriously doubt Paramount is going to change the party line that it's all prime universe, irregardless of the logic or illogic therein (esp. with new DSC-adjacent shows in the pipeline). Given that Mike McMann basically admitted that they planted the "DSC could be another universe" seed mostly to get fans talking, I suppose it'll remain in that zone of uncertainty ("probably not, but it could be..."), at best. So I suppose the creators are the ones who won, given how they broke the Trekkie corner of the internet with everyone talking about their DSC Easter egg?

(FYI, for those who're arguing that the SNW/LDS crossover episode "Those Old Scientists" proves that DSC/SNW cannot be a parallel universe, it's not actually iron-clad proof; the time travel happens through the Guardian of Forever, which, as we know from "Yesteryear" [TAS], channels the "time vortex, the focus of all the timelines of our galaxy" [my emphasis]. So, if all timelines are accessible through the Guardian, then Mariner and Boimler could easily have ended up in the past of another quantum reality, like the hypothetical DSC/SNW one.

(Also something to think about: We know from "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow" that the SNW timeline was changed from it's original pre-SNW configuration in the 1990s, creating an altered timeline going forward. Per writer comments, the Kelvin Timeline, one of the only known times that time travel created a free-standing parallel universe, is a quantum reality. So, a branch of the franchise we know has had time-travel alterations long before the DSC era, along the lines of the Kelvin Timeline, has now been tied to alternate quantum realities that exist outside of the prime universe. To quote Pirates of the Caribbean, "That's very interesting.")
 
I think there’s room for interpretation that DSC and SNW are actually not in the same continuity, and that the Pike, Spock and the Enterprise we saw in DSC are not the same ones as in SNW.

I've been thinking about this, but can you smooth over the SNW episodes where Pike knows about his future fate? That came directly from DSC. Other than that, I would agree completely. SNW fits in my personal re-write-verse (First Contact, ENT, SNW, Picard S3) and I would prefer to separate that from DSC. lol.
 
I've been thinking about this, but can you smooth over the SNW episodes where Pike knows about his future fate? That came directly from DSC. Other than that, I would agree completely. SNW fits in my personal re-write-verse (First Contact, ENT, SNW, Picard S3) and I would prefer to separate that from DSC. lol.
"In a Mirror, Darkly" is pretty tied into TOS though...
 
We see actual footage from DSC in SNW as flashbacks (just as we saw TOS footage in a Previously On for DSC). We've seen multiple instances of granular details from DSC discussed on SNW.

One could certainly argue that SNW has a backstory that is almost the same as DSC but not quite, but one could also argue that every single episode of Trek ever is actually set in an adjacent reality to the one seen in the episode prior.

When you start picking the seams in that way, I don't see why you'd even need a DSC Klingon in LDS to claim that they're in another reality.
 
I've been thinking about this, but can you smooth over the SNW episodes where Pike knows about his future fate? That came directly from DSC. Other than that, I would agree completely.

Why not? Star Trek is fake and subject to whatever the people in charge of it at the time deem it to be. So sure, there could be two universes where Pike saw his future.

The crew of Becky Freeman’s Cerritos considered their universe to be the prime one, just like the regular Cerritos crew did. So it gets to a point where the word ‘prime’ universe is just a buzzword and ultimately has no meaning. None of it fits together perfectly, which is why I think McMahon had some fun with that concept while keeping the details deliberately vague so the audience can judge for themselves what they believe they are seeing, rather than just toeing the company line.
 
I do very much like the idea of them being AU material, since that would resolve almost all the discrepancies and "allow" for the creative freedom that the current Powers That Be want without stepping on the toes of older shows and movies (heck, "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow" [SNW] literally established that SNW isn't in the original prime timeline, anyways, so I'm a little surprised we didn't have the "it's not canon" theories and debates until now).
One, it's all canon, please.

Two, would people actually enjoy these shows better if they came out and said, "Officially, there is now the post FC timeline, and things have been altered slightly."?

Would that suddenly take the shows and make them far more palatable to those who critique them and pick at the seams constantly? Would that suddenly stop and people would go, "Oh, my! This show is quite enjoyable!" *puts monocle in*

If that's the case, then I'm all for it. I would like to return to a time where it was watching Trek for fun. Yes, it was a limited time in my life where that actually happened before friends mocked me for liking TOS and having TOS based parties instead of TNG but then we got out our action figures and had a great old time. I think I'll play with my Star Trek and Star Wars action figures now.
 
I'll play with my Star Trek and Star Wars action figures now.
At the same time!!!!!!!!!????

pg3sKHk.gif
 
"In a Mirror, Darkly" is pretty tied into TOS though...
there is no proof that it is the same mirror-verse as TOS - only that a TOS craft entered whatever universe that is - and the ship could have crossed dimensions before the rewrite. Also, there is actually no connection to actual ENT in that episode other than the counterparts, but considering that in the original prime, the NX was destroyed, and everything is after the time war starts, the fact that those counterparts exist in that particular mirrorverse seems odd in and of itself. If Prime hadn't been altered, they wouldn't have been counterparts to each other at all.
 
the time travel happens through the Guardian of Forever,
No it didn't. The time travel happened through an ancient Nausicaan time portal.
We know from "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow" that the SNW timeline was changed from it's original pre-SNW configuration in the 1990s, creating an altered timeline going forward.
The timeline was changed long before Strange New Worlds came around.

TOS established that the Eugenics Wars were World War 3. TNG established World War 3 as a 21st century conflict. SNW just went with the has been more firmly established, while poking a little fun at one of the MANY inconsistencies between TOS and the rest of the franchise.
 
Two, would people actually enjoy these shows better if they came out and said, "Officially, there is now the post FC timeline, and things have been altered slightly."?
I GURANTEE you that it would make ALOT of fans would be happier that way and there would be ALOT less bickering.

Marvel has a Multi-verse
DC has a Multi-verse.

Hell Gundam has had a Multi-verse for quite a while with ALOT of Parallel Universe shows.

Star Trek has had one since near it's inception, yet they keep on insisting that there is ONLY 1x single Prime TimeLine, despite showing that other time-lines exist constantly.

It won't hurt anything to have more than 1x "Prime TimeLine".

Would that suddenly take the shows and make them far more palatable to those who critique them and pick at the seams constantly?
Oh, most definitely. You don't see Gundam fans complaining about "Canon Violations" in one of their Alternate Universe shows because it's all self contained in their many respective AU's.
The only "Prime TimeLine" in Gundam would be the "UC (Universal Century) TimeLine".

Even then, that's fragmented over many different show eras that take place with significant time apart from each other that it might as well be "Self Contained".

Would that suddenly stop and people would go, "Oh, my! This show is quite enjoyable!" *puts monocle in*
Yup, because they wouldn't worry about "Canon Violations" in most of the AU series, which is far more common to view than a UC series.

If that's the case, then I'm all for it. I would like to return to a time where it was watching Trek for fun. Yes, it was a limited time in my life where that actually happened before friends mocked me for liking TOS and having TOS based parties instead of TNG but then we got out our action figures and had a great old time. I think I'll play with my Star Trek and Star Wars action figures now.
Star Wars is it's own set of Fan Base issues.
 
It won't hurt anything to have more than 1x "Prime TimeLine".
It doesn't hurt anything either way.
Yup, because they wouldn't worry about "Canon Violations" in most of the AU series, which is far more common to view than a UC series.
Then why not treat it that way? It seems to me the anger and opinions come more from people saying they treat it as one or not. Last I checked, people still don't like Discovery even if they treat it as a separate timeline.
 
Then why not treat it that way?
I already treat it as multiple "Prime TimeLines".

It seems to me the anger and opinions come more from people saying they treat it as one or not. Last I checked, people still don't like Discovery even if they treat it as a separate timeline.
Most of it comes from those who say that DISCO is part of the same Prime TimeLine as TOS folks.
The contradictions against TOS started more severely when ENT came around.
DISCO just compounded on it even more!

If they can't accept DISCO as "Canon Trek", despite it being part of a alternate TimeLine, that's on them.

There's no helping them.

Remember, alot of us were watching DISCO as it was being released on a weekly basis and we generally were fine with it here on TrekBBS.
 
When you have a show that involves so much time travel, nearly everything is an alternate reality.

Klingons appearance changing - time travel shennanigans

Tech changes - time travel shennanigans

A Constitution class ship looking like they do in TOS to DSC back to TOS by the time it's in a Starfleet museum - time travel shennanigans.
 
Given how going through different quantum configs gave our hero ship familiar prime universe designs, Disco Klingons showing up implies nothing in particular. But my fanon is going to be that they're an intermediate form prior to curing the augment virus, where they spliced themselves with data from the remains of an extinct sister species; A form that was concurrent with the, at the time, more insular facing smooth faced ones; And quickly canceled once some glaring missing data chains were discovered.
 
Given how going through different quantum configs gave our hero ship familiar prime universe designs, Disco Klingons showing up implies nothing in particular. But my fanon is going to be that they're an intermediate form prior to curing the augment virus, where they spliced themselves with data from the remains of an extinct sister species; A form that was concurrent with the, at the time, more insular facing smooth faced ones; And quickly canceled once some glaring missing data chains were discovered.
I never had an issue with it given the lack of explanation from TOS to TMP and then a genetic mutation virus created the TOS look. Given the genetic component I imagine there was selective breeding, eugenics, and attempts to reverse engineer or breed out the virus over time, resulting in many phenotypes.

I also imagine that Great Houses followed Earth royalty and bred within their pure groups resulting in other genetic and phenotypical variants.

Given the wide variety of phenotype expression in humans, as well as efforts to modify the body, including scarification, neck elongation, skull shaping, and foot binding, I'm still unclear why Klingons would be any different.
 
Given how differently things look on SNW, if you wanted to you could infer that they are the pre-TOS characters in a different version of the universe than STD. That if you went back to see the events of that series from their perspective, it would unfold similarly but look different than it did on the earlier series.

But that's silly and pointless, because nothing like that will ever happen nor is there a reason that it should. :lol:
 
Most of it comes from those who say that DISCO is part of the same Prime TimeLine as TOS folks.
The contradictions against TOS started more severely when ENT came around.
DISCO just compounded on it even more!
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