So, why do helmsman wear red?

[neozeks]

I'm talking about the TNG era, of course. We know red is what command officers wear, but apart from them we also see it's worn by helmsman, conn officers or whatever you call them (I suppose dedicated shuttle pilots also carry red). Why do you suppose that is? Is there some special relationship between them and the 'command track' (I assume not)? Or is that just what all other unassorted personel wear (those not in sciences, engineering or security). Have we seen any other positions wearing red? I seem to remember both Geordi and Worf wore red in early TNG, but I'm not sure what their positions were. Then again, Worf also wears red in DS9, as the strategic operations officer.

 

[Timo]

Helmsmen often wore the command color in TOS as well (back when it was gold). And many people who were helmsmen ended up with command jobs later on... Perhaps that's the reason: anybody aiming for command is typically placed behind the helm console in the early stages of his career, because that position gives a good introduction to commanding a starship through typical maneuvers.

And nobody makes a career out of sitting behind that console for his whole life. Helm is too menial a job, too automated. It's something for people to move through, thus a better place for aspiring commanders than something like Tactical or Sciences, of which an officer can indeed make a full career.

Of course, there have been some helmsmen who didn't wear command colors. In the TOS movies, half the helmspeople were gold, half were grey (which was essentially the new red for that time period). Even blue has been sighted there on occasion. Perhaps this reinforces the idea that helm is a menial task, albeit educational, and that all sorts of stand-ins can handle it?

In early TNG, nobody really knew what the heroes did, least of all who did what. But in retrospect, we could argue that Worf was Tactical and Yar was Security; tactical folks in Kirk's time wore command colors while security personnel wore red. When Yar died, Picard made the choice of giving Tactical to his new Security chief; most other starships may not have made that move, for all we know. Indeed, the only other ship that combined the positions would appear to be Voyager, and even there we only learn that this would be the case after the ship suffers horrible casualties and reshuffles all the positions.

LaForge would then be a genuine helmsguy in the beginning (command colors), before becoming a genuine engineer (service colors).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[GalaxyClass1701]

They mention that they switched command from Gold to Red in DS9 but they do not mention why. DOes anyone know why this switch (in the trek univerese not for TV sake) was mad?

 

[Lor'Vela]

I know (some) modern day naval vessels have an executive department where the XO has his own staff (or department) to ensure ship discipline and efficiency is maintained. Perhaps all 24th century redshirts/22nd-23rd century goldshirts including the helm officer fall directly under the XO's jurisdiction as part of the executive department?
I recall in TNG's "Lower Decks", Lavelle commented that Riker is his CO when at the conn.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

They mention that they switched command from Gold to Red in DS9 but they do not mention why. DOes anyone know why this switch (in the trek univerese not for TV sake) was mad?

No official reason. Unofficial reasons hold that, after the movie uniforms where the dominant color was red, people became used to Captains wearing red and continued that trend.

Or they realized that too many red shirts were dying as security officers and decided to switch it to gold to silence complaints.

 

[neozeks]

In the TOS movies, half the helmspeople were gold, half were grey (which was essentially the new red for that time period). Even blue has been sighted there on occasion.

I think I saw it mentioned somewhere that helm had their own colors in some of the TOS movies. I could be wrong though...

Interesting, all this has got me thinking. What other types of officers would a ship or Starfleet as a whole need? What types have we seen?

JAG officers wore red, if I remember corectlly (though they were probably all captains and admirals, so that would explain that). Starfleet Intelligence, have we seen any of them? I suppose they wear yellow, since it's kind of related to Security.

Admiral Toddman from 'The Die is Cast', he wore yellow, so we know admirals don't neccessarilly all have to wear red. Was there ever a Science admiral?

Data wore yellow as Operations officer, but what exactly was his function? He wasn't in engineering nor in security. I know they meant him to be a science officer (but didn't really like how he looked in a Science uniform), but what's the in universe explanation?

Are there any logistics officers? I seem to remember Archer mentioning a quartermaster issuing supplies on the Enterprise (though that's somewhat wrong - army quartermasters deal with supplies, in the navy quartermasters are navigators, I think).


Heh, too many questions at once...

 

[Tallis Rhul]

I'm talking about the TNG era, of course. We know red is what command officers wear, but apart from them we also see it's worn by helmsman, conn officers or whatever you call them (I suppose dedicated shuttle pilots also carry red). Why do you suppose that is? Is there some special relationship between them and the 'command track' (I assume not)? Or is that just what all other unassorted personel wear (those not in sciences, engineering or security). Have we seen any other positions wearing red? I seem to remember both Geordi and Worf wore red in early TNG, but I'm not sure what their positions were. Then again, Worf also wears red in DS9, as the strategic operations officer.

I think it's because the Helm Officer is usually considered a "bridge officer" (see Voyager and Tom Paris and B'Elanna's squabbles), and while they don't "fit into" any of the other colours they are part of the crew's command staff, as they're in on everything that happens on the bridge. It's also worth noting that there are seemingly random members of the crew who wear red who don't seem to do anything other than just stand there... although it can be assumed that they are in charge of small departments I suppose. As for dedicated shuttle pilots, they technically command the shuttle they pilot unless a higher ranking officer goes aboard.

It's worth noting that in DS9, specifically in the episode "Field of Fire", a new pilot for the Defiant wore a gold uniform. This could signify either that it's up to the captain which of the departments Helm belongs to (in the same way as the Captain appears to be at liberty about having a joint tactical/security head), or it's also possible that on ships that have a combined Helm and Ops console (such as Defiant-Class and Akira-Class vessels) the gold uniform "takes priority" as it were.

 

[Nerys Myk]

In the TOS movies, half the helmspeople were gold, half were grey (which was essentially the new red for that time period). Even blue has been sighted there on occasion.

I think I saw it mentioned somewhere that helm had their own colors in some of the TOS movies. I could be wrong though...

Interesting, all this has got me thinking. What other types of officers would a ship or Starfleet as a whole need? What types have we seen?

JAG officers wore red, if I remember corectlly (though they were probably all captains and admirals, so that would explain that). Starfleet Intelligence, have we seen any of them? I suppose they wear yellow, since it's kind of related to Security.

Admiral Toddman from 'The Die is Cast', he wore yellow, so we know admirals don't neccessarilly all have to wear red. Was there ever a Science admiral?

Data wore yellow as Operations officer, but what exactly was his function? He wasn't in engineering nor in security. I know they meant him to be a science officer (but didn't really like how he looked in a Science uniform), but what's the in universe explanation?

Are there any logistics officers? I seem to remember Archer mentioning a quartermaster issuing supplies on the Enterprise (though that's somewhat wrong - army quartermasters deal with supplies, in the navy quartermasters are navigators, I think).


Heh, too many questions at once...

I've aways thought that Ops meant ships operations, so it would be a services related position.

 

[Tallis Rhul]

The Ops officer on a ship is in charge of ensuring that the ship operates at full capacity. Some of the duties may overlap with the Engineering department (repairing blown EPS conduits), but not all (so not repairing the warp core for example). They're also in charge of facilitating mission specialist requirements, diverting power from one system to another from the bridge console (again overlaps with Engineering at times) and rationing the use of the ship's facilities between departments, for example the ship's Exobiology department wants to use one of the sensor pallettes for scanning a nebula while the Stellar Cartography department wants to use the same sensor pallette for cataloguing a star fragment within the nebula... etc.

They also have a responsibility for ensuring that away team personnel are outfitted with the correct equipment.

They keep the ship running basically

 

[Lor'Vela]

I think it's because the Helm Officer is usually considered a "bridge officer" (see Voyager and Tom Paris and B'Elanna's squabbles), and while they don't "fit into" any of the other colours they are part of the crew's command staff, as they're in on everything that happens on the bridge. It's also worth noting that there are seemingly random members of the crew who wear red who don't seem to do anything other than just stand there... although it can be assumed that they are in charge of small departments I suppose. As for dedicated shuttle pilots, they technically command the shuttle they pilot unless a higher ranking officer goes aboard.

It's worth noting that in DS9, specifically in the episode "Field of Fire", a new pilot for the Defiant wore a gold uniform. This could signify either that it's up to the captain which of the departments Helm belongs to (in the same way as the Captain appears to be at liberty about having a joint tactical/security head), or it's also possible that on ships that have a combined Helm and Ops console (such as Defiant-Class and Akira-Class vessels) the gold uniform "takes priority" as it were.

As I said in my earlier post, it is my current belief that the Helm Officer and other redshirts fall within the Executive Department, hence the red uniform. I don't believe all Helm Officers in red are necessarily some kind of command officer in the making, they just happen to be the under the XO's command. Same with other redshirts.

And speaking of the helm position, would some say it's a position requiring a specialist? Because perhaps the variation in uniform colour could be officers from other departments filling in some bridge hours and gaining bridge experience. I should think all you would need is a Trek version of a pilot's license.

 

[Mirror_Barclay]

It probably started as a show of solidarity with the poor, expendable security officers, then they started getting told to put on their proper uniforms as part of their departments.

 

[Braxton]

Being a helmsman may be a more direct line of succession to the captain's chair than being in any other division. A helmsman will learn about a ship and will most likely be mentored by the captain (we've seen officers often viewing a previous captain as their mentor.) In a way, it's important for a captain to have a 'connection' to a ship and being a pilot is one such way to get that. They also work exclusively with the captain and commander, typically only obeying orders from those officers and no one else. So putting them under the same color as the command division could make sense from a chain of command point of view.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Because the Securty Division motto "Always Bet On Red" had become a joke.

 

[Timo]

I think I saw it mentioned somewhere that helm had their own colors in some of the TOS movies. I could be wrong though...

The first movie, ST:TMP, continued the TOS scheme as directly as possible: Sulu was still at the helm, and still wore yellow, while Scotty was still down by the boilers, and still wore red. The movie just introduced a few nuances, so that the formerly red Security was now silver, the formerly blue Medical was now green, and there was a special color for "high command", that is, Kirk wore white rather than yellow.

This got a bit confused in the second movie where the plot called for a special "cadet color", and this was chosen to be red for some reason. That meant that Scotty had to wear a new color, and he got yellow. In the first movie, virtually nobody but Helm had worn that color, so some might have thought of it as "helm color", and later as "helm and engineering color". But it was never really intended to be that; it just happened that no other yellowshirts had prominent roles in the first two movies.

(In fact, nobody knows what would have been the correct color for engineering in ST2, since red had been stolen for trainees and nothing new had been introduced. Grey is as good a guess as any, systematically speaking, since that's what e.g. the formerly red Uhura wore, but I don't think we ever saw a grey engineer. Plus, the ship was on training duty, and probably full of instructors instead of regular officers, further confusing the colors.)

Helmsmen in the following movies continued to wear the TOS yellow - except in ST6, where both Valeris and her replacement wore grey instead (but Sulu's helmsman still wore yellow). In ST:GEN, yellow returned to Helm, as Demora Sulu wore this color.

On the deeper question of what the colors mean, in the movies they seemed to give a rough indication about the duties and specialization of the wearer. But this is not true in TOS or TNG, where there are dozens of specialities but only three colors. One might argue that the colors have a completely different symbology there. Say,

Red = unrestricted line officers (Yellow in TOS)
Yellow = restricted line officers (Red in TOS)
Blue = staff

That is, people in red (TOS yellow) are an upper caste, capable of assuming the broadest range of command duties. People in yellow (TOS red) have limitations on what they can command, as they dedicate more of their time to being good at their specialist jobs. And people in blue are pure specialists, subservient to the others.

This definition would jibe with the chat Sisko and Eddington have about the significance of yellow shirts (Eddington can't become a skipper while wearing that color), and with the fact that blueshirts in all the shows may hold high ranks but don't get to take command unless the circumstances are exceptionally dire, or otherwise exceptional. Spock is a major exception from that rule, tho. As are Captain Robau and Lieutenant Kirk on the Kelvin, for that matter.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Myk]

(In fact, nobody knows what would have been the correct color for engineering in ST2, since red had been stolen for trainees and nothing new had been introduced. Grey is as good a guess as any, systematically speaking, since that's what e.g. the formerly red Uhura wore, but I don't think we ever saw a grey engineer. Plus, the ship was on training duty, and probably full of instructors instead of regular officers, further confusing the colors.)

In TWOK,the cadets and officers shown in the engineering "radiation suits" have yellow tabs along with their red or black collars. In TUC there is an enginneer next to Scotty in the launch sequence wearing yellow. Of course Scotty is in white and crewman on his other side has red and yellow on his uniform. Of course Valeris has a red shirt and a grey tab!!!???

 

[C.E. Evans]

Of course Valeris has a red shirt and a grey tab!!!???

And lieutenant commander rank insignia.

 

[Timo]

So, how many times is she addressed as "Lieutenant" anyway?

And since red is associated with training, perhaps red plus color means instructor on the subject of said color?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[USS KG5]

Of course Valeris has a red shirt and a grey tab!!!???

And lieutenant commander rank insignia.

Could have been "acting up" due to her senior position in the Enterprise crew, reverting to her normal rank of Lt. when posted elsewhere, or having her promotion confirmed.

The ranks in the shows make far more sense if you assume people often "act up", an honorary commission on a temporary basis for O'Brien in early TNG when he might have been the only enlisted man, Geordi's rapid promotion from Lt. jg to Lt. Cmdr.

It seems in Starfleet rank is decided by position as much as seniority. The exceptions are people like Harry Kim, who had clearly earned a promotion to at least Lt. jg by the time VGR ended, and whose position easily justified a higher rank.

In the ENT era rank seems to barely matter at all - Hoshi remains an Ensign for 10 years, despite being brilliant and indispensible. Logically those experienced crew members would likely all have had senior rank in the massively growing Starfleet by TATV...oh its in TATV, right.

 

[Timo]

Unless they all took a long holiday after "Terra Prime", I guess. Heaven knows they deserved one. "TATV" is a classic reunion mission anyway, a chance for the veterans to don their uniforms one more time. Just because a veteran reunion features soldiers in their 80s doesn't mean they'd all be Generals...

And one might argue that Janeway never promoted anybody, as she felt she didn't have the authority. At most, she demoted, and then restored previous rank (as with Tuvok and later Paris). Or acted on preexisting Starfleet orders in making a Lieutenant out of Paris. Or put in brass a preexisting Maquis rank structure.

Going back to Valeris being addressed as Lieutenant... Is there a transcript of TUC online somewhere? TrekCore only has the (as such enjoyable) version where the character was still Saavik.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[neozeks]

Red = unrestricted line officers (Yellow in TOS) Yellow = restricted line officers (Red in TOS) Blue = staff That is, people in red (TOS yellow) are an upper caste, capable of assuming the broadest range of command duties. People in yellow (TOS red) have limitations on what they can command, as they dedicate more of their time to being good at their specialist jobs. And people in blue are pure specialists, subservient to the others.

You know, I was just thinking of something similar and I kind of like that explanation. Wouldn't then JAG also be blue, though?

Spock is a major exception from that rule, tho.

Dax also, maybe. Perhaps it isn't so straightforward and there are some special rules?

As are Captain Robau and Lieutenant Kirk on the Kelvin, for that matter.

I thought blue was 'command' in the Robau era. Wasn't it?