Because of $$$
They have a patent
https://www.google.com/patents/US20160255328 it's probably something only companies can afford if you pay up the butt
so the producers and writers said that discovery will lead into TOS (60's aesthetics and all)...
- Thread starter crashchaos
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Because of $$$
They have a patent
https://www.google.com/patents/US20160255328 it's probably something only companies can afford if you pay up the butt
So Starfleet can't be cost efficient?
They don't do money
(yes yes there's dialogue that says otherwise but for the most part they don't do money)
They do in TOS era (credits, excuse me) and products still cost resources. Again, efficiency might be the name of the game, not technological know-how.
Starfleet is run by the government but I don't think people pay taxes. People just do their jobs to benefit humanity. Money is still used because other aliens use it.
TOS "I, Mudd"
MUDD: There is an entire crew aboard. An entire crew of androids. They learn very quickly, Captain. The fact is, I've taken over your whole ship. There's nothing you can do about it.
KIRK: Harry, Harry, you'll never get away with it.
MUDD: Well, who's to stop me?
KIRK: Starfleet.
MUDD: But now, Captain, now I have a ship of my own as fast as any in the fleet, so how will they catch me, eh? Just think of it, laddybuck. Harry Mudd with his own crew of lovelies aboard your vessel. Think about that.
^Harry forgets about the spore drive
The dialogue shows that the ships we see in Star Trek are the top of the line in starfleet. Using them as a metric against the USS Discovery shows that USS Discovery blows them away. The USS Shenzhou does too. Of course they look better than any other starship shown on Star Trek ever, CBS pays millions per episode to make it that way.
TOS "The Immunity Syndrome"
SPOCK: Personal log, Commander Spock, USS Enterprise. I have noted the passage of the Enterprise on its way to whatever awaits it. If this record should survive me, I wish it known that I bequeath my highest commendation and testimonial to the captain, officers, and crew of the Enterprise. The finest starship in the fleet.
TNG "Best of Both Worlds"
BORG: Captain Jean Luc Picard, you lead the strongest ship of the Federation fleet. You speak for your people.
VOY "Vis a Vis"
PARIS: Of course I'm happy. I'm very happy. I mean, I pilot one of the most advanced ships in Starfleet, I have a beautiful girlfriend, I'm respected. I have everything that I've ever wanted.
Star Trek First Contact
LAFORGE: Captain, we've been out in space for nearly a year now. We're ready! The Enterprise-E is the most advanced starship in the fleet. We should be on the front line.
VOY "Innocence"
EMH: It's an honour to meet you. We don't often receive such distinguished guests here, unless there's been some sort of accident. I'm sure nothing unfortunate will happen to you on your visit here, but if it did you can rest assured you will find yourself in very capable hands. We are fully equipped to provide a wide variety of treatments here from removing a splinter to re-sequencing the base pairs in a strand of DNA, and our research facilities are the most advanced in Starfleet.
Would you mind defining exactly what the difference between these two is, as you see it? Perhaps that would help clear up any misunderstanding.
I mean, it's all pretend, isn't it? The fact that the actors are humans in makeup is incompatible with them being extraterrestrial aliens of any race. The fact that the sets are made out of painted plywood and fibreglass is incompatible with them being spaceship hulls, and the ships themselves are invariably quite obviously either miniature models or animation of one sort or another. None of it is "compatible" without pretending.
As I see it, inconsistency is not synonymous with incompatibility. There are many things both in fiction and in real life that may seem quite inarguably inconsistent taken in isolation, but nevertheless co-exist, and with further context are eventually revealed not to be at all. TMP may have been superficially inconsistent with TOS, but "Trials And Tribble-ations" (DS9) and "Afflicion"/"Divergence" (ENT) clearly demonstrate that it was not incompatible. And most of us didn't have to wait all that time for it to be spelled out in order to see that as a perfectly reasonable possibility.
I never said it fits perfectly. It fits reasonably well, and a bit of imagination and suspension of disbelief is all that's required to bring it the rest of the way. As ever.
I'm not attacking you. I have zero interest in attacking you. As I see it, you are attacking the entire premise the makers of the show have set up and the efforts they've undertaken to carry it out, and all of us poor "blind" boobs who have "drunk the kool-aid" in choosing to put in our fair share of effort into the endeavor of playing along. I'm simply defending against your attacks. I do have an interest in that. It does matter to me, and to at least some others here. If it doesn't to you, that's absolutely fine, but if not, then why keep saying it "a million times" at all?
More of the same backhanded put-downs, as if they're somehow putting in less effort and leaving us to take up more slack than was true of any previous series. (Or rather, considering your observations on previous series, perhaps obliquely suggesting that the whole idea of a shared continuity was always "pointless" and deluded to begin with?)
(And yes, I've been guilty of laying down some "backhanded put-downs" myself. I have to admit as much, if I'm being honest.)
There have been times and places where one would almost never see more than one different-looking "race" of humans together, for various reasons. And today, you won't ever see a Neanderthal, anywhere. (You might well work with or live next door to one or more of their descendants, though. In fact, you might even be one!)
Which is all part of the fun, for a lot of us. And whether he meant it facetiously or not, @LottsaGelt is right when he says it's good exercise for the imagination. Heck, some authors of novels and other peripheral media have made entire careers out of playing this game! (Not to mention dedicated hobbyists like @Timo.) There's nothing necessary about it, but it can be stimulating and enjoyable. Not so much if people keep jumping in to say "it's all just a TV show!" (dude, we know that) or "it's all set in a parallel universe, game over!" (where's the fun in that?) though.
Personally, I'm fine with not having all the answers handed to me, and even with them having no particular answers in mind when they write a given story, especially not where I can readily supply them myself. If you want to "pretend" that there are no answers possible, go right ahead, that's up to you. I'm not trying to stop you. But don't insult us, and don't imagine (no pun intended) that you're somehow seeing more than we are, rather than less.
Leaving aside your couching of it in yet more reductive and belittling language as already addressed above, I'll just point out that showing new types of Klingons is "actually showing Klingon diversity." It's just not showing it in the way you would prefer to have seen it.
-MMoM
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There isn't. It's the seemingly blind insistence that there is no discontinuity and we're stupid to point out otherwise that's led to all of this.
Starfleet is run by the government but I don't think people pay taxes. People just do their jobs to benefit humanity. Money is still used because other aliens use it.
TOS "I, Mudd"
MUDD: There is an entire crew aboard. An entire crew of androids. They learn very quickly, Captain. The fact is, I've taken over your whole ship. There's nothing you can do about it.
KIRK: Harry, Harry, you'll never get away with it.
MUDD: Well, who's to stop me?
KIRK: Starfleet.
MUDD: But now, Captain, now I have a ship of my own as fast as any in the fleet, so how will they catch me, eh? Just think of it, laddybuck. Harry Mudd with his own crew of lovelies aboard your vessel. Think about that.
^Harry forgets about the spore drive
The dialogue shows that the ships we see in Star Trek are the top of the line in starfleet. Using them as a metric against the USS Discovery shows that USS Discovery blows them away. The USS Shenzhou does too. Of course they look better than any other starship shown on Star Trek ever, CBS pays millions per episode to make it that way.
TOS "The Immunity Syndrome"
SPOCK: Personal log, Commander Spock, USS Enterprise. I have noted the passage of the Enterprise on its way to whatever awaits it. If this record should survive me, I wish it known that I bequeath my highest commendation and testimonial to the captain, officers, and crew of the Enterprise. The finest starship in the fleet.
TNG "Best of Both Worlds"
BORG: Captain Jean Luc Picard, you lead the strongest ship of the Federation fleet. You speak for your people.
VOY "Vis a Vis"
PARIS: Of course I'm happy. I'm very happy. I mean, I pilot one of the most advanced ships in Starfleet, I have a beautiful girlfriend, I'm respected. I have everything that I've ever wanted.
Star Trek First Contact
LAFORGE: Captain, we've been out in space for nearly a year now. We're ready! The Enterprise-E is the most advanced starship in the fleet. We should be on the front line.
VOY "Innocence"
EMH: It's an honour to meet you. We don't often receive such distinguished guests here, unless there's been some sort of accident. I'm sure nothing unfortunate will happen to you on your visit here, but if it did you can rest assured you will find yourself in very capable hands. We are fully equipped to provide a wide variety of treatments here from removing a splinter to re-sequencing the base pairs in a strand of DNA, and our research facilities are the most advanced in Starfleet.
Seriously, if there was a point within those quotes, I missed it. Honestly. The fact that several different people have stated that their ship is the best in the fleet rings as about as true as when my managers give the pep talk that our staff is the best in the chain. It sounds nice, is a great morale booster and all, but ultimately is fluff.
It's not that there's no discontinuity. It's that it lnes up as well as any other incarnation before. That's not "drinking kool aid." That's just how fans have approached Trek for years.
No, pretending the "discrepancies" are deliberate and by design is conspiracy nonsense. Suggesting that CBS and the writers are literally conspiring to hide that fact is conspiracy nonsense. Saying you're being "attacked" when you're the one instigating, acting as though the world's gone mad and only you are clearheaded enough to see through it, calling your fantasy "obvious" and calling us "blind" for not accepting it, these are all hallmarks of conspiracy nonsense. It's irrational, it's insulting, and it's getting old.
Remember when Fred Archer gave you that title? Easy to laugh off once, but imagine if he were posting here week after week with his argument. This is what you've become, just in a different flavor.
Only thing big is the visuals, none of the story discrepancies have been massive.
It's not that we don't see the discontinuity, it's that we don't care that much.
So the Borg and Spock a Vulcan are lying or mistaken also? And everyone else is wrong? Come on...
We're in Star Trek Canon 101 territory now, are we really going to argue about whether the Enterprise-D is the best ship in the fleet?Best of Both Worlds pt 1
BORG: Captain Jean Luc Picard, you lead the strongest ship of the Federation fleet. You speak for your people.
Flagship: the best or most important thing owned or produced by a particular organization
TNG "The High Ground"
FINN: I need someone better. I heard you were with the Federation flagship and I knew you had to be.
TNG "Chain of Command pt 1"
MADRED: Why you, of course. Picard. Jean-Luc. Serial number SP dash nine three seven dash two one five. Son of Maurice and Yvette Picard. Born in La Barre, France. Formerly Captain of the Stargazer, where you conducted extensive studies on theta-band subspace carrier waves. Don't look so surprised. How could we have designed a lure for the Captain of the Federation flagship unless we knew something about his background.
TNG "The Drumhead"
SATIE: Of course he did. Do you think J'Dan could have come on board the flagship of the Federation and accomplished what he did without help from within?
TNG "Ensign Ro"
PICARD: After what happened on Garon Two, she has no business serving on any starship, let alone the flagship, my ship.
TNG "Man of the People"
ALKAR: I am grateful for the Federation's offer to escort me, but if I arrive at Rekag-Seronia on board the Enterprise, the armed flagship of Starfleet, my mission as negotiator of peace will be compromised. There must be a Federation transport ship somewhere in the area that could take me there.
TNG "Parellels"
NADOR [on viewscreen]: We were wondering the same thing about you, Captain. Why would Starfleet's flagship want to venture so close to the Cardassian border?
TNG "Starship Mine"
HUTCH: I also hear that you're a musician. I certainly hope you'll play something for us. It's not often we get to entertain the command crew of the flagship. Oh, and speaking of command. Hello, Captain Picard.
TNG "Force of Nature"
LAFORGE: You might say that. This is the flagship. We should be better than everybody else.
DS9 "Bar Association"
ODO: I know these incidents are the exception rather than the rule, but if security breaches like these could happen on the flagship of the Federation, imagine the difficulty of maintaining security at an open port such as DS Nine.
TNG "The lcarus Factor"
PICARD: I don't know, and if you're asking me what I think you should do, I don't know that either. I can spell out for you, albeit crudely, what you are choosing between. As the First Officer of the Enterprise you have a position of distinction, prestige, even glamour of a sort. You are the second in command of Starfleet's flagship, but still second in command. Your promotion will transfer you to a relatively insignificant ship in an obscure corner of the galaxy> But it will be your ship, and being who you are, it will soon be vibrant with your authority, your style, your vision. You know, there really is no substitute for holding the reins.
TNG "Sarek"
PERRIN: These quarters are quite comfortable. The Ambassador and I were very pleased when we heard that the negotiations were going to take place aboard the flagship of the Federation.
TNG "Remember Me"
CRUSHER: It's all perfectly logical to you, isn't it? The two of us roaming about the galaxy in the flagship of the Federation. No crew at all.
Star Trek Generations
PICARD: They're just trying to decide whether a twenty year-old Klingon Bird-of-Prey can be a match for the Federation flagship.
Is watering down all of the technology we see in the 24th century really going to be a valid strategy to justify what we see in Star Trek Discovery? If it is, I would submit that as evidence that Star Trek Discovery invalidates itself from the Prime timeline if that's what its affect is going to be on Star Trek canon. It's simply more trouble than it's worth.
For you. For me, it simply expands a previously unexplored aspect of Star Trek lore. As previously stated by others, it doesn't water down other episodes simply because of technology. Sorry, it doesn't.
Also, I'm still not seeing the relevance of referencing the Enterprise-D as the flag ship of the Federation. That's its more powerful? That's it's faster? I don't see the point.
I don't believe that. I think they're just in over their head. First people ridiculed the visuals of this teaser trailer
Then CBS postponed the release date and over compensated for the visuals making them too good while still neglecting the content. They set up a show that's inbetween other shows. If continuity is important to them then they need to keep the content in sync with past canon (Enterprise), present canon (between TOS "The Cage" and TOS "Where No One Has Gone Before"), and future canon (TNG, VOY, DS9, movies, and maybe TAS too).
We can see the uniform transition between episodes
Occam's razor should make it clear that these should be the only 2 types of star fleet uniforms being worn around this time. They are not hiding fleets of ships with crew members that wear improved/more stylish type uniforms while at the same time hiding all these crew members wearing the older less stylish uniforms on Star Trek Discovery.
I don't believe that. I think they're just in over their head. First people ridiculed the visuals of this teaser trailer
Then CBS postponed the release date and over compensated for the visuals making them too good while still neglecting the content. They set up a show that's inbetween other shows. If continuity is important to them then they need to keep the content in sync with past canon (Enterprise), present canon (between TOS "The Cage" and TOS "Where No One Has Gone Before"), and future canon (TNG, VOY, DS9, movies, and maybe TAS too).
We can see the uniform transition between episodes
Occam's razor should make it clear that these should be the only 2 types of star fleet uniforms being worn around this time. They are not hiding fleets of ships with crew members that wear improved/more stylish type uniforms while at the same time hiding all these crew members wearing the older less stylish uniforms on Star Trek Discovery.
The Enterprise-D was a new ship just like the Discovery was a new ship. Enterprise-D can be used as metric of what advanced 24th technology in starfleet looks like, do you have canon evidence to say otherwise? I don't see the point in rejecting this, even from a pro-Discovery point of view.
TNG "Encounter at Farpoint"
Captain's log, stardate 41153.7. Our destination is planet Deneb Four, beyond which lies the great unexplored mass of the galaxy. My orders are to examine Farpoint, a starbase built there by the inhabitants of that world. Meanwhile, I am becoming better acquainted with my new command, this Galaxy Class USS Enterprise. I am still somewhat in awe of its size and complexity.
...
RIKER: Ensign, can you help me find Commander Data? I understand he's somewhere on this deck.
ENSIGN: This way, sir. You must be new to these Galaxy class starships, sir. (to wall) Tell me the location of Commander Data.
COMPUTER: Lieutenant Commander Data now located in Holodeck area 4J.
TNG "Chain of Command Part 1"
JELLICO: It caught me by surprise too. I must admit, I miss the Cairo already. But a Galaxy class ship, that's something special. I can understand why you turned down a ship of your own to remain aboard.
TNG "Tin Man"
DESOTO [on viewscreen]: Out here, you never know who's listening. Keeps you on your toes, anyway. Hey, Will. Will, you getting soft on that luxury liner?
PICARD: So, old friend. How are you?
DESOTO [on viewscreen]: Well, you know, they send you Galaxy Class boys out here to the far reaches. Me, I'm just hauling my butt back and forth between starbases.
TNG "Bobby Trap"
[Utopia Planitia Drafting room]
(A room chock full of computer consoles, models and stuff on glass. Outside the window, the Enterprise is being built)
LAFORGE: Damn. Right back where it all started. Whoa, this is incredible. Leah, did you design this?
LEAH [OC]: The dilithium crystal chamber was designed at outpost designated Seran T One, Stardate 40052. Some of the Federation's best engineering minds participated in its development.
TNG "All Good Things"
TASHA: Will this be your first time on a Galaxy class starship? Are you all right, sir? Sir?
PICARD: I'm sorry, Lieutenant. My mind must have wandered. What were you saying?
TASHA: I was asking if you'd ever been aboard a Galaxy class starship before.
PICARD: No. Of course, I'm familiar with the blueprints and specifications, but this will be my first time aboard.
TASHA: Well then, if I may be so bold, sir, you're in for a treat. The Enterprise is quite a ship.
I'm not rejecting anything. I don't particularly care to compare starship to starship, since ships can be built for different capabilities, and the Enterprise D is clearly designed with far more luxury in mind. Defiant is also state of the art? Would you compare it to the Enterprise D or the Discovery?
Each ship serves a very specific purpose, and I''m failing to see your point, since even the Constitution class starships were boasted about in TOS, i.e "There are only 12 like her in the fleet." "commander of starship" etc.
This feels very much like a false equivalency test at this point and adding little to this discussion.
It's a pretty simple point. But people deny the most basic claims here which leads to pages and pages of proof. The point is that we are given a good sense of the technological level of the 24th century. We would expect a 23rd century vessel to be inferior if there is continuity.
Technological progression continuity looks like this over 100 years
USS Discovery is supposed to be the 1917 model car in comparison to the 2017 model car. But they flipped it in Discovery
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