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SIze of The Federation in the new series

INACTIVEUSS Einstein

Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
A small Federation is favored by experts - the official Star Trek: Star Charts - the Star Trek cartography site Star Trek Dimension - the comments of people like Rick Sternbach - the episodes (such as DS9's "The Valiant") - and Pocket Books. All favor a core that is perhaps 100 light years in diameter, and perhaps has further but highly-scattered members and colonies beyond this - with the most distant being the real-life stars Antares (604 light years distant), Rigel (773 light years distant) and during TNG's Deneb (3200 light years distant). Thus justifying Picard's comment of the Federation being spread over 8000 light years - a group of 12 scientists clinging onto the side of some distant nameless Class-K planet, studying deep-space telescopes, count as an outpost - but most of the Federation's 150 member worlds are within a small region around Earth, Vulcan, Andor, Tellar, Betazed, Bolarus, etc.



Even if the entire Romulan Star Empire was to join the Federation, as vast as both powers are (and the Romulans must have conquered many subject-species), they would still occupy a tiny 1,500 light-year sphere within the galactic disk - the tiny white dot on the map above marked "Local Space" - this isn't Star Wars or Warhammer 40,000 or Foundation, but rather a setting where the galaxy is a vast natural wonder to be explored - where each planet is politically diverse - many of them with cultures that have no interest in joining the Federation - so the voluntary organization must be scattered, and separated by neutral planets, with who they have varying degrees of cooperative relations.

To quote Star Trek Dimension, which I think is very well reasoned:

"The training mission should last 3 months [...] It was our mission to fly around the entire Federation [...]" - DS9 146 The Valiant

Again, this statement indicates a much smaller and more logical Federation diameter. Of course, to travel 10000 ly (taking this diameter, the actual perimeter of the Federation would even be considerably larger) in 3 months is completely impossible, even at the maximum speed, which can be sustained for only a few hours (Defiant class vessels: Warp 9.982). On the basis of the given time of three months and the maximum permanently sustainable speed of the Defiant class - warp 8.9 (at speeds of warp 9 and above, ships of this class have difficulty in maintaining structural integrity) -, we get a maximum Federation perimeter of 361 ly, and therefore a maximum diameter of only 90.25 ly, assuming a nearly quadratic shape. Indeed, a Federation with a diameter of less than one hundred light years seems to be the favored model since DS9's 6th season - although a too small extension is as problematic as a two large one.


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....on the one hand, there is a core region of the Federation that is only few hundred light years or even less than hundred light years large, where all core planets (Earth, Alpha Centauri, Vulcan, Andor, Tellar) are situated. This area is restricted by the five adjoining powers and has not significantly changed its size for hundred or more years. In the relatively small core region, the whole action of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine takes place, what explains the short distances and travelling times in this series as well as the huge ship fleets that operate in a pretty small volume. On the other hand, the Federation also extends outside the space taken up by the "Core Federation" and the five other empires far into deep space - within a region with just the considered diameter of 8000 ly. Here, there are several single planets settled by the Federation, but the area is primarily dominated by agglomerations or concentrations of Federation planets that are far more extensive in size and population and which form autonomous "fragments" of the Federation each. Examples for such Federation fragments, which are detached from the core region and completely self-sufficient with an own administration and defense, are the regions around Deneb, Antares and Rigel - just those stars which there mentioned as "boundary stars" of the Federation territory with regard to the theory of a large Federation. This wide-ranging and all in all more sparsely populated Federation region was explored by the Enterprise-D within seven years....

If there is one thing that JJ Abrams movies got right about the feel or tone of Star Trek, it was in depicting the planets of Star Trek as being very distant and exotic to each other, like a far eastern port in the Age of Sail. The planet Vulcan had to send a planetary distress signal to bring Earth's aid; the people of Earth didn't just automatically know about movements and events 16 light years away, like some Earth nation state linked instantly by the internet. Pike described Starfleet as a "peacekeeping and humanitarian armada", which was a very apt summary of what The Federation seems to be - an organization in which there are different levels of commitment and participation, but which defends all equally, promotes scientific/academic collaboration, and engages in mutual aid in times of crisis.



So, how does this relate to the new series, whether set in the original timeline, or the new timelines, or is rebooted entirely? Well, what I hope for personally is a return to the feeling of awe and wonder that sometimes characterized Star Trek - and it can't be done by depicting the Federation as some sort of relatively monolithic nation state, and applying Earth-analogies to everything. Recent B-canon material, especially the awful games of recent times, seem to have sometimes treated the Federation as it it were a map in Command & Conquer - where starships are as disposable and as mass-produced as tanks - a mistake born I think, from taking DS9's huge battles out of context. In reality, the loss of a single Galaxy-class starship, would be more akin to the loss of an Apollo mission - they are the entire culmination of the Federation's scientific power, wrapped into a deep-space explorer.

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TOS was probably set somewhere out beyond Rigel, in the unexplored galactic south. TNG was probably set well beyond the borders of the Federation, Romulans, Klingons and Cardassians - in season one, beyond Deneb in the galactic west - and in later seasons, perhaps in the galactic north. DS9 despite it's epic scope, was probably the narrowest - set mainly within the main core of the Federation, on the Cardassian border in particular - but able to cross all the way to Qo'noS very quickly. Whatever the new series chooses to focus on, it would be nice to see it remain consistent with the tone of established Star Trek - and I trust Bryan Fuller, if anyone.
 
most of the Federation's 150 member worlds are within a small region around Earth, Vulcan, Andor, Tellar, Betazed, Bolarus, etc.
I never receive that impression from the show. While certainly the founding member would be within a small are, I feel that the Federation's membership would be well scattered inside of the Federation's overall area.
Pike described Starfleet as a "peacekeeping and humanitarian armada"
That wasn't Starfleet, Pike was referring to the Federation with those words.
 
It will always be as big or as small as a story demands it to be, with either a ship being "the only one out this far" in one episode and then only hours away from Earth a few episodes later. If anything, they'd almost be better off avoiding any specifics regarding the size of the Federation because it'd only be called into question eventually when our heroes need to get from its farthest edge to Earth within the span of a story.

The alternative is to just have any given warp speed be wildly variable (like they often are in Trek).
 
That wasn't Starfleet, Pike was referring to the Federation with those words.
No, that was Pike referring to Starfleet after he was referring to Kirk at the Bar to Enlist in Starfleet, "You do realize what Starfleet is right? A Peace Keeping humanitarian Arma-" then Kirk interrupted him with "Are we done?" That was it.

As for the size of the Federation, Smaller; around 100 light years does not make sense canonotically speaking, nor does it add up with real science. A light year by our definition of it is measured by how long light takes for light to reach the end of our Solar System and rounded by the actual speed that light particles move.

100 light years in diameter would only make the Federation Borders practically so close to one another that you'd think they would not take that much time to go from one star system to another, plus this would also assume that in order for interstellar traversion would be very slow, below the speed of light which as far as we know for Star Trek's famous Warp drive, is not the case.
 
As for the size of the Federation, Smaller; around 100 light years does not make sense canonotically speaking, nor does it add up with real science. A light year by our definition of it is measured by how long light takes for light to reach the end of our Solar System and rounded by the actual speed that light particles move.
What is this I don't even... Light year, is the distance which light travels in one year.
100 light years in diameter would only make the Federation Borders practically so close to one another that you'd think they would not take that much time to go from one star system to another, plus this would also assume that in order for interstellar traversion would be very slow, below the speed of light which as far as we know for Star Trek's famous Warp drive, is not the case.
Of course not. Obviously at speeds lower than lightspeed, travelling 100 LY would take longer than hundred years.
 
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What is this I don't even... Light year, is the distance which light travels in one year.
You're confusing Lightspeed with Light Year. Lightspeed is the speed of which it's distance is traveled by a year. Light Year is the distance measured using the speed of light as a background.

Of course not. Obviously at speeds lower than lightspeed, travelling 100 LY would take longer than hundred years.
Which is why many Official Trek Stellar Cartography books are wrong and should only be taken at face value due to their contradictions to the show and real life science.
 
@JTShanks, frankly, you're spouting absolute nonsense. Read a book. Or even a wikipedia article.

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Anyway, some math.

100 LY diameter for Federation is absolutely too small. There are less than 2000 stars within that distance. Federation has 150 members, right? According to newest data, about one in 25 stars is going to have roughly Earth-sized planets within their habitable zone. Note that this does not yet mean they all are actually supporting life. There are other things like atmospheric composition etc which may preven that. And of course even if most planets capable of supporting life actually developed life, how many would develop intelligent life? How many of those with intelligent life would develop warp drive? And how many of those would join the Federation?

Federation must encompass an area within of which lies tens or (more likely) hundreds of thousands of stars, so that this area can produce 150 warp capable Federation member civilizations. This is probably closer to 500 LY diameter.
 
You do realize you just proved me to be correct on the Lightspeed/Light Year issue, Longinus?
 
You do realize you just proved me to be correct on the Lightspeed/Light Year issue, Longinus?
No.

What you said was:
A light year by our definition of it is measured by how long light takes for light to reach the end of our Solar System and rounded by the actual speed that light particles move.
That is not even a coherent sentence. And certainly light year has nothing to do with the size of the solar system.

You also said:
Lightspeed is the speed of which it's distance is traveled by a year. Light Year is the distance measured using the speed of light as a background.
So where exactly is this year travelling? Yeah, not understanding you here either.

I said:
Light year, is the distance which light travels in one year.
Wikipedia says:
a light-year is the distance that light travels in vacuum in one Julian year
Should be clear enough.
 
@Longinus: Thanks for engaging with this interesting topic, but there is nothing anywhere saying that "all 150 members are within 100 light years of Earth". Some are no doubt in the wider Federation, such as around the Rigel or Antares cores. How many? Who knows, for all we know, maybe 70% of those 150 members lie scattered in the larger 8000 light-year expanse. The point that Star Trek Dimension was trying to make was that the Federation resembles a thalassocracy like the British Empire or Athenian Empire - due to it's nature as a voluntary organisation. Hence, a Defiant-class ship can circle it's main core (it's principle political border) in three months, but far-flung members, perhaps out near Deneb, might take a year to reach on assignment. Perhaps the Klingons and Romulans are more like land empires, owing to their need to establish lines of supply. This neatly ties up everything we have seen in the shows.

@T'Girl:
The site comprehensively explains why a diameter of 100 light years for the Federation's central core makes sense; it is calculated by comparing warp speeds to distances - Quark would never be able to take a short trip to Kronos from Deep Space Nine, in a Federation that was laid out like a continental-USA in space over 10000 light years - it would take something like 2 years to cross.

@C.E. Evans: You and I know that the needs of the story are of paramount importance, and may have played a part in on-screen evidence. But when there is a theory which basically explains everything brilliantly - supporting both evidence of a large AND small United Federation of Planets - also fitting with the realism and IDIC ideology of the show on top of that - I see no reason not to praise it.
 
The Klingons took over 3 weeks to cross Federation space to Cardassian space in season 3 of DS9. Looking at any map of the Alpha Quadrant, the two empires have only a thinner stretch of Federation space between them.

It regularly took days or weeks for people to travel in DS9, to reach areas only halfway across the Federation so...100LY means they're travelling awfully slow for "maximum warp" or it's larger.
 
I don't think there's any way to reconcile all the screen evidence in any reasonable map structure.
 
No, but TNG/DS9 did imply some significant distances, sometimes having to arrange starship relays to ferry things, meeting halfway to cut down on travel times.
 
The Klingons took over 3 weeks to cross Federation space to Cardassian space in season 3 of DS9. Looking at any map of the Alpha Quadrant, the two empires have only a thinner stretch of Federation space between them.

It regularly took days or weeks for people to travel in DS9, to reach areas only halfway across the Federation so...100LY means they're travelling awfully slow for "maximum warp" or it's larger.

Actually, the site gave comprehensive times and speeds:

Assuming that the Valiant's three-month mission around the Federation was at the following speeds:

90 days at warp... / Federation perimeter / Width (supposing a quadratic shape)
warp 8 / 253 ly / 63.25 ly
warp 8.9 / 361 ly / 90.25 ly
warp 9.8 / 617 ly / 154.25 ly

So actually, the three week travel time sounds just right, if anything.

Starfleet generally moves at a cruising speed of warp 6 (the maximum sustainable safe cruising speed for most starship classes, such as the Galaxy class and Akira class). But assuming the Defiant-class USS Valiant was moving at a more military speed of warp 8.9 in general, that puts the Federation at around 100 light years in diameter, and about 400 in circumference. A freighter, probably only with a max speed far lower than a military vessel would take even longer.

Clearly the writers of the Star Trek Star Charts were thinking along similar lines, but didn't go with a full-on 'diffuse' Federation, so chose to instead restrict the full size of all major powers to within a 1500 light year sphere - which is not too different from Star Trek Dimension's theory.

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But anyway, the solution to this is simple: that was just the main core of a more diffuse Federation - an elegant solution! It only challenges our unscientific preoccupations with territory being contiguous - 99.9999% of space is void.
 
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No, that was Pike referring to Starfleet after he was referring to Kirk at the Bar to Enlist in Starfleet, "You do realize what Starfleet is right? A Peace Keeping humanitarian Arma-" then Kirk interrupted him with "Are we done?" That was it.
Pike: If you're half the man your father was, Jim, Starfleet could use you. You could be an officer in four years. You could have your own ship in eight.

You understand what the Federation is, don't you? It's important. It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada.

Kirk: Are we done.

Pike: I'm done.
+
 
We don't have any inshow figures for how fast warp speeds are, and the manuals all give different values. And those are all for Federation ships :shrug:
 
@USS Einstein, I understand that a space empire doesn't need to be continuous territory, especially one like Federation where the membership is voluntary and has criteria (there logically would be all sorts of pockets of non-Federation civilizations withing the Federation space.) However, that map just looks weird. What is in that huge area of space between the main core (and the alien empires) and the scattered secondary cores? How would you end up with a structure like this in the first place? How do the Federation ships travel to these secondary cores without going through areas of space belonging to the alien empires? And wouldn't travelling to these cores take years with the assumed warp speeds this whole exercise is built upon? And lastly, and most importantly, why was this structure never mentioned on-screen?

Furthermore, I maintain that 100 LY is just too small for the main core. This area should have significant chunk of the member civilizations of the UFP, or else it isn't much of a main core. Almost 2000 stars may sound like a lot, but due the reasons I mentioned earlier it's not nearly enough.
 
All the questions you asked are explained on that site, but to go through some of them with whatever degree of astronomical knowledge I have, I would suggest that:

1). the reason for the unique shape advocated there, is that the Federation, in the course of exploring space, sometimes encountered member worlds that were very enthusiastic to join, and met all criteria, but were very far out.

2). the huge void between the Federation main core and Deneb is illusory - there are in fact scattered settlements, outposts, colonies, members and starbases between. (Speculation).

3). the reason you can get to the Federation's other cores "through" hostile space, is that the galaxy isn't a flat disk; travesing say, the Cardassian Union, can be accomplished north, south, above, below, maybe even through.

4). yes, traveling to them would take years. Not our cup of tea today, but Australia was months away from Britain in Captain Cook's time - and the suggestion is that they are relatively self-running regions.

Given a toss of a coin between the Star Trek: Star Charts, and that site, I am starting to favor that site much more, as it makes sense in the context of space, in which the distances between even two relatively close stars like Alpha Centauri and Sol, are absurdly huge, and the nature of settlement in a huge 3D void is sporadic. The 'nation-state-in-space' view, favored by Z-canon games and stuff recently, which depicts the Federation being more like Star Wars's Republic, with millions of disposable starships acting like fighter planes in some absurdly vast stellar region, is unsatisfying.
 
Thing is, some of these places in the supposed secondary cores were visited in the show, and the travel didn't take years.
 
Again, I would urge the reading of the site first hand, since I'm just repeating things from there, but the reasoning of their argument was that in TNG season one (for example), the first 20ish episodes were set out on the frontier - with Encounter at Farpoint being around Deneb - possibly edging their way back toward the Federation - only to arrive back in time for Heart of Glory and The Neutral Zone.

From memory, this doesn't sound too far fetched, because it's not like we know the amount of time that passes between episodes; probably several weeks.

The solution of the Star Trek: Star Charts, if I remember, is different - it dismisses stars like Deneb and Rigel as being something other than their real-life namesake, like a similarly named Epsilon Deneb or Gamma Rigellis or something (I'm just making those names up) - and they are just referred to as Rigel and Deneb in popular parlance by the 24th century.



My only problem with the Charts, which are nice, is that its clearly a bit fannish in places - I really didn't like, for example, how Klingon and Romulan stars have all been named after Klingon and Romulan ship classes and stuff (B'Rel, K'Vort, D'Deridex, Vor'Cha, Negh'Var... ffs) - just because they are the only Romulan and Klingon words that people know off the bat... It's like naming every city in Japan "Samurai 8" and "Godzilla 4", and looks ridiculous (should have just left them blank) - but thats another topic. Also a small Romulan Star Empire and large Klingon Empire is a debatable interpretation of their relative power.
 
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