Seven of Nine and FIRST CONTACT

[William Leisner]

Hello, Voyager fans. I'm hoping someone on this forum would be able to help me find a bit of information I've been trying (without success) to track down.

I recall a scene in a Voyager episode where Kim and Torres(?) are working in the Jefferies tubes on repairs, and playing a trivia game to pass the time. Seven of Nine shows up during this scene, and she is able to answer a question pertaining to Zefram Cochrane and first contact, after which she tells the other two that the Borg had been present at the time. Can anyone (a) confirm there really was such a scene, (b) tell me which episode it was in, and (c) also tell me what the actual question and answer were that the others were surprised she would know?

Gracias.

 

[BillJ]

Wanting to say it's Relativity. But I'm not 100% certain.

Cochrane is listed in the references section on the Memory Alpha page for that episode.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Relativity_(episode)

 

[Defcon]

Year of Hell:

From chakoteya.net

Day 47
[Turbolift]
TORRES: When are they going to get us out of here?
KIM: Try to relax. Let's get back to the game. Grace Kelly. Cat burglars. The Riviera. Name the title and the male lead.
TORRES: To Catch A Thief.
KIM: Right.
TORRES: Clark Gable.
KIM: Eeek. Wrong. Cary Grant.
TORRES: I've seen the holographic version twice. It's Clark Gable.
KIM: I think you're getting them confused because they have the same initials. It was Grant.
TORRES: No more twentieth century entertainment. I'm terrible at it. My turn. Category, athletics.
KIM: Fire away.
TORRES: A notorious athlete. Parrises Squares championship finals. A controversial decision.
KIM: M'Kota R'Cho. The first and only Klingon to play the game. In the finals of 2342 one of the referees called a penalty against his team. R'Cho strangled him.
TORRES: Impressive.
KIM: You're looking at a true sports aficionado. Let's see, how about interstellar history?
TORRES: Oh, great. You pick the one subject I almost failed at the Academy. Go ahead and ask - ah!
KIM: Are you all right?
TORRES: It just hurts a little. Feels like we've been here for days.
KIM: Actually it's been about six hours. Try to hang on, B'Elanna. Emergency crews are going find us any minute. Come on, hurry up!
TORRES: Go ahead, ask your stupid question before I pass out and you don't have anybody to play with.
KIM: Okay. Erm, it's a famous ship. Er, pre-warp civilization. Er, Montana. Er, second stage had chemical engines.
TORRES: Another clue.
KIM: Vulcans. Er, Earth, First Contact. It's er
TORRES: Oh, right, right. Um, er, er, Zephram Cochrane's ship. What was it called? Oh, it's on the tip of my tongue.
KIM: Okay, here, here, you'd better lie down now. Enough trivia for now.
TORRES: No, no, I'm going to get this one.
SEVEN: Lieutenant. Ensign.
TORRES: It's about time. What happened to the turbolift?
SEVEN: During the last attack nineteen main power relays were severed. The entire turbolift system is non-operational.

[Corridor]
TORRES: Get me to the Jefferies tube network on deck eleven. The EPS manifold must have taken a hit too.
KIM: Seven of Nine can go take a look. We have to get you to the Doctor.
TORRES: All right.
SEVEN: Phoenix.
KIM: What?
SEVEN: The correct response to your query. The vessel Ensign Kim was describing. It was designated the Phoenix.
KIM: Not bad. I didn't realise you knew so much about Earth history.
SEVEN: I don't, but the Borg were present during those events.
KIM: Really.
SEVEN: It is a complicated story. Perhaps another time.
TORRES: I think so.

 

[BillJ]

http://www.chakoteya.net/Voyager/523.htm

Was in the episode, but Seven was talking to one of the temporal agents.

DUCANE: Let's see how much you've assimilated. The Dali paradox.
SEVEN: Also known as the Melting Clock Effect. It refers to a temporal fissure which slows the passage of time to a gradual halt.
DUCANE: The Pogo Paradox.
SEVEN: A causality loop in which interference to prevent an event actually triggers the same event.
DUCANE: Excellent. Can you give me an example?
SEVEN: The Borg once travelled back in time to stop Zefram Cochrane from breaking the warp barrier. They succeeded, but that in turn led the Starship Enterprise to intervene. They assisted Cochrane with the flight the Borg was trying to prevent. Causal loop complete.
DUCANE: So, in a way, the Federation owes its existence to the Borg.
SEVEN: You're welcome. The Seven of Nine paradox.

 

[BillJ]

Year of Hell:

From chakoteya.net

Day 47
[Turbolift]
TORRES: When are they going to get us out of here?
KIM: Try to relax. Let's get back to the game. Grace Kelly. Cat burglars. The Riviera. Name the title and the male lead.
TORRES: To Catch A Thief.
KIM: Right.
TORRES: Clark Gable.
KIM: Eeek. Wrong. Cary Grant.
TORRES: I've seen the holographic version twice. It's Clark Gable.
KIM: I think you're getting them confused because they have the same initials. It was Grant.
TORRES: No more twentieth century entertainment. I'm terrible at it. My turn. Category, athletics.
KIM: Fire away.
TORRES: A notorious athlete. Parrises Squares championship finals. A controversial decision.
KIM: M'Kota R'Cho. The first and only Klingon to play the game. In the finals of 2342 one of the referees called a penalty against his team. R'Cho strangled him.
TORRES: Impressive.
KIM: You're looking at a true sports aficionado. Let's see, how about interstellar history?
TORRES: Oh, great. You pick the one subject I almost failed at the Academy. Go ahead and ask - ah!
KIM: Are you all right?
TORRES: It just hurts a little. Feels like we've been here for days.
KIM: Actually it's been about six hours. Try to hang on, B'Elanna. Emergency crews are going find us any minute. Come on, hurry up!
TORRES: Go ahead, ask your stupid question before I pass out and you don't have anybody to play with.
KIM: Okay. Erm, it's a famous ship. Er, pre-warp civilization. Er, Montana. Er, second stage had chemical engines.
TORRES: Another clue.
KIM: Vulcans. Er, Earth, First Contact. It's er
TORRES: Oh, right, right. Um, er, er, Zephram Cochrane's ship. What was it called? Oh, it's on the tip of my tongue.
KIM: Okay, here, here, you'd better lie down now. Enough trivia for now.
TORRES: No, no, I'm going to get this one.
SEVEN: Lieutenant. Ensign.
TORRES: It's about time. What happened to the turbolift?
SEVEN: During the last attack nineteen main power relays were severed. The entire turbolift system is non-operational.

[Corridor]
TORRES: Get me to the Jefferies tube network on deck eleven. The EPS manifold must have taken a hit too.
KIM: Seven of Nine can go take a look. We have to get you to the Doctor.
TORRES: All right.
SEVEN: Phoenix.
KIM: What?
SEVEN: The correct response to your query. The vessel Ensign Kim was describing. It was designated the Phoenix.
KIM: Not bad. I didn't realise you knew so much about Earth history.
SEVEN: I don't, but the Borg were present during those events.
KIM: Really.
SEVEN: It is a complicated story. Perhaps another time.
TORRES: I think so.

Missed it by that much...

 

[KimMH]

wasn't Kim referring to ST movie First Contact? Earth is attacked by the Borg and the TNG crew goes back in time to prevent the Borg from preventing first contact with the Vulcans who see the maiden voyage of the Pheonix?

 

[William Leisner]

Thanks, Defcon and BillJ.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

wasn't Kim referring to ST movie First Contact? Earth is attacked by the Borg and the TNG crew goes back in time to prevent the Borg from preventing first contact with the Vulcans who see the maiden voyage of the Pheonix?

Seven could have been referring to the "movie" (released in 1996), but since the events in the "movie" took place after Voyager was lost (series debuted 1/95), then Kim couldn't know about them. IIRC, that was one of the reasons Kim was so "shocked" at Seven's contention that the Borg were "there".

 

[KimMH]

I'll have to pay better attention to:
1 - the timeline!
2 - the OP's actual question

 

[Kai Winn]

i wonder how the borg and 7 learned about cochrane's adventure? the borg cube was destroyed by the fleet, and the sphere by the enterprise-e before the phoenix's flight. the frozen survivors of the sphere discovered in enterprise-nx times were disabled before cochrane's flight, the queen and other borg who beamed to the enterprise-e as well as assimilated crewmembers, and the antenna they installed on the deflector all destroyed before that flight. humans had no knowledge of the borg before the enterprise-d encountered them, so the borg couldn't assimilate the knowledge from humans prior to q-who like the crew of the raven.

 

[exodus]

i wonder how the borg and 7 learned about cochrane's adventure? the borg cube was destroyed by the fleet, and the sphere by the enterprise-e before the phoenix's flight. the frozen survivors of the sphere discovered in enterprise-nx times were disabled before cochrane's flight, the queen and other borg who beamed to the enterprise-e as well as assimilated crewmembers, and the antenna they installed on the deflector all destroyed before that flight. humans had no knowledge of the borg before the enterprise-d encountered them, so the borg couldn't assimilate the knowledge from humans prior to q-who like the crew of the raven.

the Borg had already assimilated Starfleet Officers and Federation citizens before "First Contact", so they were aware from their memories where & when Cochrane's ship was going to launch from.

Human's had knowledge of the Borg way before Ent-D, how else would the Hansens know of them in order to go looking for them? We knew of them since Kirk's time when the El Auran refugree's came to Earth in "Generations."

 

[Kai Winn]

yeah, but how did the borg learn that there were borg present in first contact?

 

[exodus]

yeah, but how did the borg learn that there were borg present in first contact?

Because the Borg already knew they were going back in time to that event. THe Queen and the hive knew that was their main plain the whole time they were traveling to the AQ in "FC".

 

[JoeFromEarth]

They did send that message to the collective in that Enterprise episode.

 

[Guy Gardener]

In the before and After timeline, Borg space was so small that Captain Chakotay just missed it.

No fuss no muss.

In the timeline we came to regard as dominant shortly after the episode Before and After because fo the events in the movie first contact, the interplexing beacon's signal did reach Borgspace, and by the time it finally reached the Delta Quadrant Borg a century or so later, they did get a 2 or three hundred year tech/data info leg up, and suddenly Borg Space was this unmissiable 78 and a half thousand square light year range of certain doom.

 

[exodus]

In the before and After timeline, Borg space was so small that Captain Chakotay just missed it.

..or the course they were on caused them to go around it avoiding it completely.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If they found a wormhole or slip gate, maybe.

But as the crow flies from before and after to the year of hell, some "version" of Borg Space, defeated hulk or glorious super empire, is smack in the middle of those two "events" that spending twenty years accidentally circumnavigating Borg Space at it's worst with out noticing it and still rendezvousing with the Krenim keeping up with the same timetable seems unlikely.

Maybe it took Captain Chakotay only a few weeks or months to circumnavigate Borg space? or they bisected it swift enough to not encounter any serious resistance?

Which would make Borg space in the before and after timeline both small and weak.

Which supports my theory completely that they became huge and strong by receiving intelligence from a parrallel timeline's future just like Forest, Archer and Hoshi wrestling over the USS Defiant.

 

[exodus]

If they found a wormhole or slip gate, maybe.

But as the crow flies from before and after to the year of hell, some "version" of Borg Space, defeated hulk or glorious super empire, is smack in the middle of those two "events" that spending twenty years accidentally circumnavigating Borg Space at it's worst with out noticing it and still rendezvousing with the Krenim keeping up with the same timetable seems unlikely.

Maybe it took Captain Chakotay only a few weeks or months to circumnavigate Borg space? or they bisected it swift enough to not encounter any serious resistance?

Which would make Borg space in the before and after timeline both small and weak.

Which supports my theory completely that they became huge and strong by receiving intelligence from a parrallel timeline's future just like Forest, Archer and Hoshi wrestling over the USS Defiant.

In "YOH" Chakotay said they never would have entered Krenium space if they hadn't made a course correction to avoid a comet. That tells us, Krenium space doesn't directly interset with Borg space. So yes, it is possable to avoid Borg space and still end up in Krenium or vise versa. Zall space also rests inbetween Borg & Krenium space. During "YOH", Zall space was wipped out thus making Krenuim space larger, still leaving plenty of room for the vast depths of Borg space but in a different sector than Krenium.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You know how huge Borg space is.

That's like saying you were leaving Alaska, flying to Sweden and you missed Russian airspace because you went around a suicidal pigeon.

And Janeway made the same (a similar?) course correction, otherwise she would never have encountered the Krenim either, even though the size of their empire is as variable as borg Space depending on which of the dozens of timelines we've seen repainting spacial topography in these three episodes.

Don't forget, Seven assimilated a Kremin temporal physicist who might have been Annorax we discovered in infinite regress. Borg space may have eaten a huge Chunk of Krenim space by the time these buggers stopped playing dice

 

[exodus]

You know how huge Borg space is.

That's like saying you were leaving Alaska, flying to Sweden and you missed Russian airspace because you went around a suicidal pigeon.

However, before building Asrtometrix, they were partly flying blind and relying on Neelix. If they had an Asrtometrix lab to begin with, it's possable they could have charted a course that would never take them toward Borg space to begin with. So yes, like any territory, you can chart a pre-existing course around it if you know where in is first. The Hirogen in "The Killing Game" never heard of the Borg, yet the events of that story don't take place that far from Borg territory. The Talaxians in "Homestead" got around it some how too.