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SAY WHAT? Marina Sirtis Almost Fired!

I guess part of the problem was how the character was created (or how imagine it). In my opinion, one of the reasons for TNG's bumpy start was that the characters were underdeveloped when they started filming. In the early episodes they all feel like empty shells that have yet to find content, it feels like too little thought had gone into them, and so early on they feel somewhat lost, unsure yet who they are or why they're there, even Picard.

It feels like: this time, we want a wise, considerate captain, so Picard. But we also need some Kirkish guy for the action and who gets the girls, so Riker. We want a Klingon on the bridge because ongoing progress and message of peace, so Worf. We'll have a prodigy child who shows the adults a thing or two so the kids will love it, thus Wesley. We want some not-Spock who raises questions about the human condition, so Data. We want someone whose disability is negated by awesome future tech, so Geordie. We want a tough woman who breaks with traditional gender roles, so Tasha. And so on. Alright, let's go shooting.

They forgot to flesh out any character or give them a backstory that's more than crude outlines, and so it was pretty hit and miss, some characters developed well and found their place and identity with time, others didn't. Tasha left partly because the character never took off, Beverley was dropped after season 1 to be replaced with not-Bones Dr. Pulaski, another ill-conceived character with her pointless and unprovoked animosity towards Data, a too obvious desperate (and failed) attempt at reviving the McCoy/Spock chemistry.

Where I see Deanna in this: I suspect that whoever conceived that character had made some great experience with therapy and wanted to have a space therapist on board. Her space power would obviously be being an "empath". However that power very soon turned hazardous from a writing point of view, since having someone on the bridge who can sense intentions and sincerity of anyone they encounter is a serious spoiler/plot killer. So she soon found herself mostly stating what anyone could easily see anyway, making her the infamous Counsellor Obvious.

I imagine writers often didn't know what to do with her, and instead had to write around her: how can I make a plot that Deanna won't uncover too early with her psy powers? I imagine that encouraged writers to sideline her, seeing her rather problematic than helpful.

If I recall correctly, it wasn't until the beginning of season 5 when they started to really treat her as a core character and give her more focus, and put an end to her role as Counsellor Obvious. A few years earlier it wouldn't have surprised me if they'd just got rid of her like Tasha and Beverley.
 
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Yes. They should have based the character around her own personality (and accent). Instead it wasn't until the movies that they allowed the character to drift there.

It starts a little earlier, after Lwxana nukes the alien betazed accent. Eventually, we see Troi slip more into Marina mode, particularly in episodes with Worf and her mother. Fistful of Data’s for instance, is the only time we see a character voluntarily smoking.
 
My favorite Troi moments were when she shared a tender moment with Riker and when her mother's antics made her likably indignant. Riker and Troi were the Decker and Illia of TNG and I think that helped give TNG a deeper emotional resonance.

While I did not enjoy her short lived romance with Worf, I thought it was amusing when she acted as a mediator between Worf and Alexander, and I enjoyed that.
 
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I never got how a ship with over a thousand people only had one counselor.
It didn't. There were others... we just never saw. She's even referred people to others in a few instances
Fistful of Data’s for instance, is the only time we see a character voluntarily smoking.
HvbSPRV.jpg

:rommie: I'm not sure if he's actually smoking that thing in Elementary, Dear Data, but Kirk smokes Martia's cigar in Undiscovered Country lol
In a perfect world, maybe. Not to be Billy-Jack Liberal, but woman are faced with a double standard and the production/writer's room is largely a good old boys club therefore she may not have felt her ideas were welcome. Denise Crosby articulated her thoughts and was gone from the series midway through S1. May not have been related but who knows what message it may have sent to Marina - especially after McFadden was bounced at the end of S1. All things considered, I can't blame Marina Sirtis.
I'm not the one blaming her, nor am I downplaying the gender issues she likely faced. I only pointed out that she's admitted herself to bearing some of the responsibility, for not taking opportunities, that I assume were long after the early season rocky waters, & I agree with her. She should've availed herself imho

Like I pointed out, that hurdle is not unique to her, nor only women on Star Trek, (Robert Beltran's Chakotay) It's common for performers who take an active role in working with writers, to benefit from it, (Picardo's Doctor) & those who don't, for whatever reason, won't. It's not like she's hard to work with or unlikable, & it's evident they did ask her for input.

That's how Riker ends up a trombonist, & Bev is a dancer & drama enthusiast. Those are direct influences from the performers. Even little additions like that can help a character, & I don't recall anything like that from Troi. For example, what if she liked fashion? & we come to find out that all her outfits are designed by her, & maybe some she made for her mates too, like they could've given her credit for introducing Picard's velour jacket :D
 
It didn't. There were others... we just never saw. She's even referred people to others in a few instances

HvbSPRV.jpg

:rommie: I'm not sure if he's actually smoking that thing in Elementary, Dear Data, but Kirk smokes Martia's cigar in Undiscovered Country lol
I'm not the one blaming her, nor am I downplaying the gender issues she likely faced. I only pointed out that she's admitted herself to bearing some of the responsibility, for not taking opportunities, that I assume were long after the early season rocky waters, & I agree with her. She should've availed herself imho

Like I pointed out, that hurdle is not unique to her, nor only women on Star Trek, (Robert Beltran's Chakotay) It's common for performers who take an active role in working with writers, to benefit from it, (Picardo's Doctor) & those who don't, for whatever reason, won't. It's not like she's hard to work with or unlikable, & it's evident they did ask her for input.

That's how Riker ends up a trombonist, & Bev is a dancer & drama enthusiast. Those are direct influences from the performers. Even little additions like that can help a character, & I don't recall anything like that from Troi. For example, what if she liked fashion? & we come to find out that all her outfits are designed by her, & maybe some she made for her mates too, like they could've given her credit for introducing Picard's velour jacket :D

Didn’t remember the pipe, but Martia provided kirks fag.
 
Didn’t remember the pipe, but Martia provided kirks fag.
Yeah, his reaction to smoking it was funny too. It reminded me of his reaction to having a taste of beer with Gillian in TVH. Has that man never done anything fun?

Holy cow!!! I just had a revelation. The 1st time we ever see Troi smoke a cigar, is 7 episodes after she has that conversation about them with Mark Twain! That could totally be what got her thinking about them!
y4gRBLs.gif
 
I admit, I thought initially that she was Councillor Troi i.e. a diplomat. Roddenberry was obsessed with new age concepts like psychotherapy and counselling . Ilia was the navigator but her empathic powers also meant that she was going to be placed in the role of counsellor too.

The problems with Troi stemmed from them forgetting that she was a lt-commader who was also ship's counsellor. But her biggest problem was the dreadful way Betazoid telepathy was conceived. Talia Winters or Cally in Blakes 7, or even Miranda Jones were far more interesting because their mental powers were nebulous and could add to a story. Troi's abilities were plot-busting, intrusive, and dull. They needn't have been though.

I was appalled that they replaced their female security guard with a bartender, but not only that, a bartender who nibbled away at Troi's niche even more.

Sirtis has said that it took them until season 5 to get the hang of her character and I agree. Troi could have been brutal, alien, with a streak of ruthless honesty to try and teach the duplicitous humans how to be more honest with themselves and others but they went all emotional and squishy.

I think she was better in season one as Picard's diplomatic attache but they really should have kept some kind of code of ethics for her from the start.
 
I can see how it’s hard to write a character whose abilities should end all deception stories immediately and who doesn’t naturally fit into action stories. Her natural stories are diplomacy ones and Picard takes all those. In any other show they would have given her a superpower somehow.

They probably should have placed her more front and center in diplomacy situations, making hard decisions in the moment instead of usually having an advisory role.

Well, those problems were largely due to Gene Roddenberry himself. His edict of conflict free drama amongst the crew really made the "counselor" position suspect. Right now I am currently on season 4 of my TNG re-watch and review. It is startling how, even only halfway through S4, Troi and Crusher's characters are obviously stronger. Roddenberry was also a product of his age wherein he may have been liberal in terms of sex as an activity but he was also quite chauvinistic in viewpoint.
 
Next Gen was set up in s1 as if the intent was to have intelligent scripts with psychological insights in them, that would tie in with whatever aliens or new tech they were encountering. Then they did not hire any writers capable of carrying that out. If Roddenberry actually was a New Age enthusiast, that might explain it. Psychology has become "Psychology Lite", nothing requiring involved thought, perhaps more like simple ideas and catchphrases. I noticed phrases popping out from dialogue in s1 like Tasha's: "Helping is more important". I don't remember the exact context. Naked Now had a few Pop Psych lines like that.
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Now, I remember one reviewer's perfect comment about Next Gen during s1: "Not quite for adults, not quite for children"! That was the weird, inbetween zone it was in. You can't make proper use of a psychologist character unless s/he has a fairly complicated psychological perspective to offer, that leads the audience to see what's happening in a new, unexpected way. You need to make it an adult show for that. Otherwise, the character will just be hanging around.
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Eventually Troi comes across as more of an adult with thoughts, and actually we get glimpses of that from her even in s1, but while the show itself does get smarter and more adult, it only goes so far. A lot of it is smoke and mirrors. They settled for a vague impression of substance, while cranking out a lot of filler toward the end. We like everybody, the characters are solid, they seem smart, but the scripts, not really.
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You need scripts with psychology in them, to make use of a psychologist character.
 
I was just thinking about how revealing it is that all the Berman-era cast issues are with female castmembers, and this anecdote is more evidence for that pile. Gates McFadden, Denise Crosby, Diana Muldaur, Terry Farrell, Jennifer Lien* -- all unceremoniously fired, or quitting because they didn't like the situation they were in. Meanwhile (except for Wheaton, who also described being treated terribly by Berman because of his youth), EVERY male series regular is on for the full run of his respective series. That's not a coincidence.

I just happened to rewatch "Skin Of Evil" yesterday and was struck by the fact that this is the most we ever see of Troi dispensing therapy, to Armus.

It's interesting to imagine the show where Sirtis was cast as Yar and Crosby as Troi, resulting in Troi being our season 1 fatality. I prefer what we got, but the upside of that casting would have been that the romantic pairing of Sirtis & Dorn's characters would have actually worked.

*I feel like I also have to shout-out the horror story of Grace Lee Whitney's experience on TOS.
 
^Regarding Gates McFadden, Rick Berman has publicly stated that Maurice Hurley "had a bone to pick with her". Hurley convinced Rodenberry to fire her, and Berman, who admitted this in the same interview, didn't care enough to try to use his influence to stop it.
 
as much as I love marina sirtis, it was hard to find legit things for deanna to do. the character was a bit useless, at least at first.
I would say apart from maybe Data and Picard, the writers didn't know what to do with anyone in Season 1. They figured it out pretty quickly, after that.
 
Heck, they didn't even know what to do with "I'm SUPER FRENCH" Jean-Luc Picard either. The show had growing pains, and part of the adjustment to those growing pains helped Marina Sirtis gain a decent career.
 
I would say apart from maybe Data and Picard, the writers didn't know what to do with anyone in Season 1. They figured it out pretty quickly, after that.

Riker had a very specific role from the beginning, he led the away teams, had the adventures, romanced the ladies. He was a good contrast to Picard, the more philosophical, father figure.

Both Riker and Picard were father figures to Wesley and Data, who were the children of the family so to speak.
 
Well, my thinking then was working off the varying definitions of "counsellor" (or in Godfather terms "consigliere") to elevate her standing. To be clear, it was more just spit balling an idea as an example (but it is along the lines of the opportunities you listed as diplomatic/ambassadorial duties are very much rooted in the legal). My point was just if they found her character too limited to write for then they had the power to expand it in any of a hundred different ways.

I just finished watching S4E7 ("Reunion") and it had me wondering if they had ever considered replacing Marina Sirtis with Suzie Plakson ("K'Ehleyr")?

They did almost that.
Dr.Pulaski replacing (Dr. Milqtoast)Dr. Beverly.
Nobody seemed to like it though.
 
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