SAY WHAT? Marina Sirtis Almost Fired!

[Doc Mugatu]

NEWS: ScienceFiction.Com

Sirtis claims she was almost fired during TNG's first season. Apparently that was at some point confirmed by Majel Barrett. I'm guessing she was ultimately saved by Denise Crosby volunteering to exit the series. Still, kind of misogynistic thinking to say there are too many woman while you have 6 male leads to only 3 female. Which was reduced to a 6 to 2 ratio after the death of Tash Yar. Pretty messed up for folks who were supposed to be "enlightened." Another example of Roddenberry's hypocrisy.

 

[Armus]

The writers didn't know what to do with Troi in season 1. She wasn't even in a few episodes(Hide and Q, Datalore) because they couldn't see a place for her. Her character was always a tough one for the writers. I think Ron Moore said, if TNG went on, that they wanted to make Troi a school teacher to give her more to do.

If Denise Crosby hadn't quit, and if Maurice Hurley hadn't used his influence to fire Gates McFadden, it's likely Marina Sirtis would have been fired.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

The writers didn't know what to do with Troi in season 1. She wasn't even in a few episodes(Hide and Q, Datalore) because they couldn't see a place for her. Her character was always a tough one for the writers. I think Ron Moore said, if TNG went on, that they wanted to make Troi a school teacher to give her more to do.

If Denise Crosby hadn't quit, and if Maurice Hurley hadn't used his influence to fire Gates McFadden, it's likely Marina Sirtis would have been fired.

Like Keiko on DS9?
That only lasted for half a season for a recurring character.
How many stories could they generate for a main char that way?

 

[Sophie74656]

as much as I love marina sirtis, it was hard to find legit things for deanna to do. the character was a bit useless, at least at first.

 

[Terok Nor]

I see the struggles they had with this character but I really can't and don't want to imagine TNG without her. I'm glad she was kept around.

 

[Dukhat]

Like Keiko on DS9?
That only lasted for half a season for a recurring character.
How many stories could they generate for a main char that way?

I’m not sure about Keiko, but I do know that they were toying with getting rid of Jadzia Dax in the first few seasons for the same reason; they simply didn’t know what to do with the character. That’s why she changed from acting like an intelligent old man in a young woman’s body to a more seductive and sarcastic personality later.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

I’m not sure about Keiko, but I do know that they were toying with getting rid of Jadzia Dax in the first few seasons for the same reason; they simply didn’t know what to do with the character. That’s why she changed from acting like an intelligent old man in a young woman’s body to a more seductive and sarcastic personality later.

That's misogyny in action. If the men were having problems writing for the women then hire more women writers don't get rid of the actresses. It also doesn't speak well of their abilities AS writers.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

as much as I love marina sirtis, it was hard to find legit things for deanna to do. the character was a bit useless, at least at first.

I respectfully don't buy that. If the writers could not write for female characters (remember they apparently had problems writing for ALL of them - Troi, Yar and Beverly) then they are not very good at their jobs. I mean their knee-jerk answer was not let's correct the problem rather it was let's just get rid of the female leads.

I had from day one advocated they expand Troi's character so as to include her more - like add legal counsel to her duties to add more gravitas to her assisting Picard on diplomatic issues. Something. Anything. But not nothing. Or less than nothing by firing her.

 

[Mojochi]

I had from day one advocated they expand Troi's character so as to include her more - like add legal counsel to her duties to add more gravitas to her assisting Picard on diplomatic issues.

Honestly, TNG suffered from a lot of limitation on job roles, & the women suffered the most. While I don't know how being a psychoanalyst would equate to legal counseling per say (Which sounds to me more like a law focused vocation) I do think there was a very real opportunity to feature her more as a cultural attaché, diplomatic liaison, negotiator, etc...

Honestly, in my head canon, that's the real role of a ship's counselor anyhow, despite them rarely making use of it that way... as evidenced in how she gets used at the negotiating table with Jellico, or sent in to interrogate during The Drumhead. In a situation like the wormhole bid during The Price, She'd be FAR more adept at & maybe even more qualified in negotiating on behalf of Starfleet, than Riker

I mean good god, in the actual Liaisons episode, she finally gets a shot at the role, & spends the whole episode eating frigging chocolate with the guy. About the only time she actually took a lead role in any kind of cultural relations duty was her work with Data in Darmok, & it couldn't have been more brief

So much untapped potential for that character, to be a very potent addition to the crew dynamic, in alien relations

 

[Doc Mugatu]

Honestly, TNG suffered from a lot of limitation on job roles, & the women suffered the most. While I don't know how being a psychoanalyst would equate to legal counseling per say (Which sounds to me more like a law focused vocation) I do think there was a very real opportunity to feature her more as a cultural attaché, diplomatic liaison, negotiator, etc...

Well, my thinking then was working off the varying definitions of "counsellor" (or in Godfather terms "consigliere") to elevate her standing. To be clear, it was more just spit balling an idea as an example (but it is along the lines of the opportunities you listed as diplomatic/ambassadorial duties are very much rooted in the legal). My point was just if they found her character too limited to write for then they had the power to expand it in any of a hundred different ways.

I just finished watching S4E7 ("Reunion") and it had me wondering if they had ever considered replacing Marina Sirtis with Suzie Plakson ("K'Ehleyr")?

 

[Mojochi]

Well, my thinking then was working off the varying definitions of "counsellor" (or in Godfather terms "consigliere") to elevate her standing. To be clear, it was more just spit balling an idea as an example (but it is along the lines of the opportunities you listed as diplomatic/ambassadorial duties are very much rooted in the legal).

I wouldn't think diplomacy or cultural relations would find much crossover in any kind of jurisprudence sense. An attorney is a counsellor (Like Tom Haden in your example). I just don't see much in the way of that kind of skill set in her wheelhouse imho, but I did totally know what you meant about brainstorming to find ways to open up her horizons more

My point was just if they found her character too limited to write for then they had the power to expand it in any of a hundred different ways

And I couldn't agree more. Although, even Sirtis herself has admitted that some of the blame might fall on her unwillingness to engage with the writing staff over the direction of her character. They've been writing this show for years, & are looking for inspiration to add a spark of something to it, & they come to you, who've been portraying your character for just as long. They literally ask you for input.

Now, you may not be a writer, but you ARE an artist, aren't you? You can't possibly have been playing this part for years & NOT had some thoughts as to where they could take it, what interests she might have, or what circumstances might feature her best, can you?

If the writers invite you to be involved, & you send them packing, you have no real grounds to gripe that it didn't flesh out to your expectations, imho (ahem... Robert Beltran... ahem) For me? If I'm invited in, I go home that very night & do some hard thinking about where I feel the character could be improved, grown, used best etc.... It's MY character on Star Trek. People might talk about it until the next generation. I'm not a passive bystander in that

 

[mos6507]

From all estimations she still enjoyed the comeraderie (or goofing around, as Stewart initially interpreted it) on the set even if her character didn't have enough to do. Just seemed like the work environment is what mattered to her most.

 

[Mojochi]

as much as I love marina sirtis, it was hard to find legit things for deanna to do. the character was a bit useless, at least at first.

You know, despite how weakly we think of the position, in large part due to how they wrote her specifically, from a purely functional point of view, the ship's top counsellor, having maybe been educated in such things as psychiatry, psychology, psychoanalysis, etc... has the potential to be the most valuable blue shirt, science officer on the bridge.

No one would ever dispute the necessity of scientific officers who study & investigate all manner of cosmic phenomena, anomalies, or natural elements. Yet, the majority of Starfleet's mission statement is about interacting with other spacefaring intelligences. In that context, the most important scientist on the bridge would most often be the one trained in behavioral studies, & in that specific post, being especially focused on diplomacy

The only question is why she wasn't Dr. Deanna Troi. The absence of that particular title would suggest less focus on a medical background, & more on advanced study in behavioral sciences, for other purposes, like foreign relations. Personally, I could image that role being so useful as to make their crew therapy duties almost an afterthought. Frankly, if that character ends up being useless, you have no one to blame but yourself imho

 

[J.T.B.]

Well, my thinking then was working off the varying definitions of "counsellor" (or in Godfather terms "consigliere") to elevate her standing. To be clear, it was more just spit balling an idea as an example (but it is along the lines of the opportunities you listed as diplomatic/ambassadorial duties are very much rooted in the legal). My point was just if they found her character too limited to write for then they had the power to expand it in any of a hundred different ways.

I'm not sure it's about Sirtis/Troi specifically, but finding "stuff to do" regularly for a number of main characters. The consigliere idea is interesting, but if Troi does what Tom did in The Godfather, what would Riker be for? Stand around and repeat the captain's orders? If she'd been given more to do, it seems like something would taken away from some other character.

Her original function was kind of a dud, anyway. Sitting on bridge and giving "I sense" reports on anyone the ship encountered could be a real story-killer: If you already know the friendly new guys are really bad, not a lot of room for drama there. Once they got away from that, what to do with her (not counting one-off dramatic episodes centered on a particular character)? The ship's doctor always has some business because people having adventures get hurt. The engineer always has business because the ship can always break, and the security chief because there are always bad guys and intruders. Geordi and Worf moved into those positions from their original, more vague functions. Crosby and Wheaton were not replaced after their departures, so I'm thinking that nine in the main cast was too many to make useful in many stories, and seven was on the bubble.

 

[Terok Nor]

I never got how a ship with over a thousand people only had one counselor. But then they only had one toilet too...

 

[Doc Mugatu]

I wouldn't think diplomacy or cultural relations would find much crossover in any kind of jurisprudence sense.

That's fine. Again, I was just using that as an example. I wasn't married to it.

To be clear though, everything about diplomacy has to do with "jurisprudence." What do you think a treaty is? It is a legal contract. Wherever you have a civilized society you are going to find a codified set of rules/laws of what is acceptable and what isn't. On top of that you have Federation law. There might even be a great variety of differing flavors of jurisprudence within the same civilization. so, considering the nature of the series, it very well could have been a rich vein of dramatic opportunity. Deana Troi could have been Amal Clooney before the world knew of Amal Clooney.

Again, while certainly a valid idea, definitely not the only way they could have gone. They could and should have done something though.

And I couldn't agree more. Although, even Sirtis herself has admitted that some of the blame might fall on her unwillingness to engage with the writing staff over the direction of her character.

Reminds me of what Walter Koening told Shatner when the former was interviewed by the latter for the series Raw Nerve. Koening told him of the collective disappointment towards Shatner on TOS because of his penchant for more often than not taking there lines or screen time. Koening also said none of the complained at the time therefore they had to take some of the blame.

Then again, I also remember an anecdote DeForest Kelly once told (TV guide interview I think). It was during S1 of TOS and he found he was again left with nothing to do in an episode. The writer apologized and said something to the effect they forgot about him. Kelly responded the if it happened again then they could just go on forgetting about him because he would quite.

Now, you may not be a writer, but you ARE an artist, aren't you? You can't possibly have been playing this part for years & NOT had some thoughts as to where they could take it, what interests she might have, or what circumstances might feature her best, can you?

In a perfect world, maybe. Not to be Billy-Jack Liberal, but woman are faced with a double standard and the production/writer's room is largely a good old boys club therefore she may not have felt her ideas were welcome. Denise Crosby articulated her thoughts and was gone from the series midway through S1. May not have been related but who knows what message it may have sent to Marina - especially after McFadden was bounced at the end of S1. All things considered, I can't blame Marina Sirtis.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

From all estimations she still enjoyed the comeraderie (or goofing around, as Stewart initially interpreted it) on the set even if her character didn't have enough to do. Just seemed like the work environment is what mattered to her most.

Or she simply made the best of the situation she found herself in. I really can't get with the "blame the victim" mindset.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I can see how it’s hard to write a character whose abilities should end all deception stories immediately and who doesn’t naturally fit into action stories. Her natural stories are diplomacy ones and Picard takes all those. In any other show they would have given her a superpower somehow.

They probably should have placed her more front and center in diplomacy situations, making hard decisions in the moment instead of usually having an advisory role.

 

[Admiral2]

If Denise Crosby hadn't quit, and if Maurice Hurley hadn't used his influence to fire Gates McFadden, it's likely Marina Sirtis would have been fired.

Frankly, I would have preferred that.

Tasha Yar was my favorite female character, and arguably my favorite character of the series - and she got killed by a talking oil slick. Meanwhile, while I had no great love for Dr. Crusher, at least she had a useful function on the ship.

Deanna Troi was there to look good in a catsuit and emote. I had no use for her then, and my opinion of the character hasn't changed all these years on, and while Marina Sirtis herself is funny and engaging and talented, her talents were wasted on Troi. Getting fired would have been a blessing in disguise, She could have gone on to play a character people could care about.

That's my opinion. Respond as you see fit.

 

[mos6507]

Marina Sirtis herself is funny and engaging and talented, her talents were wasted on Troi.

Yes. They should have based the character around her own personality (and accent). Instead it wasn't until the movies that they allowed the character to drift there.