Red Squad and the Valiant
- Thread starter PhoenixIreland
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It was never stated if Nog was an Academy graduate. He had one year at the Academy, then took a field assignment on Deep Space Nine. He stayed an extra semester so that's like two years at the Academy. He was given a commission and by the end of DS9 was promoted to Lt. Junior Grade. He didn't go back the Academy and quite frankly, with everything he learned and went through during the war, going back the the Academy would have been a major step down for him.
Still though, was Nog's promotion to Ensign specifically a battlefield promotion? Because if it was, then you can argue both he and Watters are just cadats with battlefield commissions.
About Red Squad, I never saw a problem with the idea of Starfleet recognizing the "best of the best" with their students at the Academy. The problem was, from everything we've seen on DS9, a culture of arrogance, insubordination, and a feeling of indestructability has developed in Red Squad. It's a culture that Starfleet needs to slap down hard.
Originally, it was going to be Kira instead of Jake but the producers decided against it, feeling Kira would have kicked all their assess and taken command of the ship. I would have loved to have seen that.
Still though, was Nog's promotion to Ensign specifically a battlefield promotion? Because if it was, then you can argue both he and Watters are just cadats with battlefield commissions.
About Red Squad, I never saw a problem with the idea of Starfleet recognizing the "best of the best" with their students at the Academy. The problem was, from everything we've seen on DS9, a culture of arrogance, insubordination, and a feeling of indestructability has developed in Red Squad. It's a culture that Starfleet needs to slap down hard.
Originally, it was going to be Kira instead of Jake but the producers decided against it, feeling Kira would have kicked all their assess and taken command of the ship. I would have loved to have seen that.
[FONT=Helv]This has been a very interesting thread and all postings represent good thought and speculation. I think it's best to look at this episode from three fronts:
Nog accepted Watter's promotion as a legitimate field promotion and with this in mind, it was perfectly appropriate for Nog to be junior to Watters for a myriad of reasons. First, with a field promotion to Captain, Watters' authority and responsibility is exactly the same as any commissioned Captain, and it would be innappropriate for Nog or anyone else junior to him to usurp that authority. Technically, even a commissioned commander like Riker or Worf would be bound to his authority. In that case, Watters would be strongly compelled to relinquish command however. Second, Nog knew that the crew was fiercely loyal to their Captain and committed to their mission. I don't know which rule of acqusition applies best, but the Ferengi negotiating instinct told him that he wasn't going to sit in the Captain's chair. Chief Engineer was "profitable" enough. Lastly, we could all see the boyish excitement in Nog's face when Watters welcomed him to the crew and promoted him. He was tickled to be a part of the Red Squad that was worshipped at the academy. He'd fully bought into Watters quixotic dream, and neither his common sense nor his best friend Jake could deter him from participating in that dream.
Also, even if we don't accept Watters' promotion as a legitimate field promotion, he was still appointed to the Captain position by Ramirez. Everyone seems to agree with this, but some have questioned whether this appointment stands upon Nog's arrival. It does. Watters' position as Captain carries the authority of the Captain who gave it to him, and can only be revoked by Ramirez's replacement or his superior. We have seen many examples in Star Trek where this "appointed authority" supercedes the normal rank structure. One posting referred to Wesley Crusher and his "first command" where he was put in charge of higher-ranking people for a specific task. Also, LaForge was once put in command of the Enterprise when there were higher ranking people on board. In that case, even after his return, Picard allowed LaForge to continue his command of the ship. In both cases, command authority was delegated by the true Captain for a person to command someone superior in rank. Believe it or not, this situation occurs in real life in today's military. A Captain commands a battalion headquarters company, but one of the soldiers in that company is the battalion Commander, a Colonel. A Sergeant serves as an instructor for an Officer training school, and has dozens of "superior" Lieutenants reporting to him. High ranking officers all the way up to General must periodiacally qualify on a range with their assigned weapon, but that range is typically commanded by a Lieutenant and the superior officers must take their commands from him. So, regardless of the nature of Watters' promotion, he is the captain of the ship, and it is Nog's duty to obey his orders whether he is superior in rank or not. Ordinarily it would be offensive for Nog to ask for verification of Watters' promotion, but in this case, the situation was odd enough that Watters shouldn't have taken it personally. In fact if I were Watters, I'd have volunteered the verification. I believe the writer chose not to include this verification discussion because it wasn't really relevant to the plot unfolding. Such a discussion would have only been a distraction.
Now, all that being said, Ramirez set Watters up for failure if his dying instructions didn't make it perfectly clear that he was to take the ship and crew home immediately. Regardless of their mission and radio silence orders, when the last of their commissioned officers died, the best course of action is to break radio silence (perhaps in some technically saavy inconspicuous way), appraise Starfleet of their predicament and request guidance. We don't know if Ramirez said this explicitly to Watters, or if he assumed Watters would infer it on his own, or (unlikely but possible) that it was his intent all along for Watters to proceed as he did. Regardless of Ramirez's intent, when the ship received new orders from Starfleet that upgraded their mission (presumed to be after Ramirez's death) it is a judgement call on Watters' part whether to break silence and contact Starfleet. It certainly wasn't an easy decision, but his ego tipped the scales in favor of accepting the mission.
Watters was honorable, intelligent, committed, mission-focussed, and fearless. His only failure was his overconfidence, which is typical of his age and abilities. Ramirez screwed up by giving him too much (or at least unclear) authority.
I thought the episode was spectacularly written. It was a nice change of pace to get away from most of the regular cast, we got a chance to see some real character development in Nog, and it brings to the surface a very healthy discussion about the nature of military training and the fine line between bravery and stupidity.
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1. From the perspective of a comparable present-day military situation, at least as much as possible.
2. From the perspective of a 24th century Starfleet and it's policies, precedents, and procedures, such as we know and understand them from the bits of other stories.
3. From a literary standpoint. We have to expect that the story will deviate from reality to some degree in order to make it interesting enough to watch. After all, if everything had worked out the way it was planned/designed, then there wouldn't have been a story to tell in the first place. This perspective requires us to accept the fact that writers often leave out what we consider to be essential elements (like what exactly were Ramirez's dying orders to Watters, or if Nog considered whether or not he should bid for command). Screenplay writers often have to leave out certain scenes in order to fit the time available, and writers of all media types often leave out such details because they want the audience/reader to fill in the gaps with his own imagination.
There has been a lot of discussion over the legitimacy of Watter's promotion to Captain. For the purposes of my post here, I've assumed that the promotion was legitimate, proper, and an actual "field promotion" as opposed to what's been described by other postings as a "billet". My only evidence of this is that the cadets are wearing rank. There are dozens of Star Trek precedents of people acting temporarily in a higher position and addressed as that position, but they don't change their rank. However, whenever the phrase "field promotion" is used, it seems to be more permanent and insignia is changed. Janeway did this on Voyager a lot, Riker acted as Captain a lot, but only changed his insignia when he was field promoted to Captain when Picard was assimilated, etc. Most convincingly is the saga of Wesley Crusher who was an "acting Ensign" for several episodes and wore no rank until Picard finally granted him a field promotion. For me this is proof positive that wearing the insignia means the rank is either a field promotion or an actual promotion. This practice is consistent with present-day military regulations. In my own military experience I have served as "Acting Captain" and commander of a unit, but never changed my rank, and people still addressed me as Lieutenant. Field promotions are rare these days but when they do happen, the ensignia changes, the pay changes, and the person becomes indistinguishable from officially being promoted. 2. From the perspective of a 24th century Starfleet and it's policies, precedents, and procedures, such as we know and understand them from the bits of other stories.
3. From a literary standpoint. We have to expect that the story will deviate from reality to some degree in order to make it interesting enough to watch. After all, if everything had worked out the way it was planned/designed, then there wouldn't have been a story to tell in the first place. This perspective requires us to accept the fact that writers often leave out what we consider to be essential elements (like what exactly were Ramirez's dying orders to Watters, or if Nog considered whether or not he should bid for command). Screenplay writers often have to leave out certain scenes in order to fit the time available, and writers of all media types often leave out such details because they want the audience/reader to fill in the gaps with his own imagination.
Nog accepted Watter's promotion as a legitimate field promotion and with this in mind, it was perfectly appropriate for Nog to be junior to Watters for a myriad of reasons. First, with a field promotion to Captain, Watters' authority and responsibility is exactly the same as any commissioned Captain, and it would be innappropriate for Nog or anyone else junior to him to usurp that authority. Technically, even a commissioned commander like Riker or Worf would be bound to his authority. In that case, Watters would be strongly compelled to relinquish command however. Second, Nog knew that the crew was fiercely loyal to their Captain and committed to their mission. I don't know which rule of acqusition applies best, but the Ferengi negotiating instinct told him that he wasn't going to sit in the Captain's chair. Chief Engineer was "profitable" enough. Lastly, we could all see the boyish excitement in Nog's face when Watters welcomed him to the crew and promoted him. He was tickled to be a part of the Red Squad that was worshipped at the academy. He'd fully bought into Watters quixotic dream, and neither his common sense nor his best friend Jake could deter him from participating in that dream.
Also, even if we don't accept Watters' promotion as a legitimate field promotion, he was still appointed to the Captain position by Ramirez. Everyone seems to agree with this, but some have questioned whether this appointment stands upon Nog's arrival. It does. Watters' position as Captain carries the authority of the Captain who gave it to him, and can only be revoked by Ramirez's replacement or his superior. We have seen many examples in Star Trek where this "appointed authority" supercedes the normal rank structure. One posting referred to Wesley Crusher and his "first command" where he was put in charge of higher-ranking people for a specific task. Also, LaForge was once put in command of the Enterprise when there were higher ranking people on board. In that case, even after his return, Picard allowed LaForge to continue his command of the ship. In both cases, command authority was delegated by the true Captain for a person to command someone superior in rank. Believe it or not, this situation occurs in real life in today's military. A Captain commands a battalion headquarters company, but one of the soldiers in that company is the battalion Commander, a Colonel. A Sergeant serves as an instructor for an Officer training school, and has dozens of "superior" Lieutenants reporting to him. High ranking officers all the way up to General must periodiacally qualify on a range with their assigned weapon, but that range is typically commanded by a Lieutenant and the superior officers must take their commands from him. So, regardless of the nature of Watters' promotion, he is the captain of the ship, and it is Nog's duty to obey his orders whether he is superior in rank or not. Ordinarily it would be offensive for Nog to ask for verification of Watters' promotion, but in this case, the situation was odd enough that Watters shouldn't have taken it personally. In fact if I were Watters, I'd have volunteered the verification. I believe the writer chose not to include this verification discussion because it wasn't really relevant to the plot unfolding. Such a discussion would have only been a distraction.
Now, all that being said, Ramirez set Watters up for failure if his dying instructions didn't make it perfectly clear that he was to take the ship and crew home immediately. Regardless of their mission and radio silence orders, when the last of their commissioned officers died, the best course of action is to break radio silence (perhaps in some technically saavy inconspicuous way), appraise Starfleet of their predicament and request guidance. We don't know if Ramirez said this explicitly to Watters, or if he assumed Watters would infer it on his own, or (unlikely but possible) that it was his intent all along for Watters to proceed as he did. Regardless of Ramirez's intent, when the ship received new orders from Starfleet that upgraded their mission (presumed to be after Ramirez's death) it is a judgement call on Watters' part whether to break silence and contact Starfleet. It certainly wasn't an easy decision, but his ego tipped the scales in favor of accepting the mission.
Watters was honorable, intelligent, committed, mission-focussed, and fearless. His only failure was his overconfidence, which is typical of his age and abilities. Ramirez screwed up by giving him too much (or at least unclear) authority.
I thought the episode was spectacularly written. It was a nice change of pace to get away from most of the regular cast, we got a chance to see some real character development in Nog, and it brings to the surface a very healthy discussion about the nature of military training and the fine line between bravery and stupidity.
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I hated the episode because I couldn't believe that the whole group of cadets could come out of the academy, "red squad" or not- and be so arrogant and stupid. To think they were perfectly capable of taking a Defiant class ship alone behind enemy lines after a new Dominion super ship. To be sooo ridiculous that when they failed, the silly girl on the bridge wanted to keep firing instead of doing the intelligent thing- evacuating!! What was she waiting for??
I didn't think the acting was that great- the kids just sounded stuck up to me, like when people who can't act but *think* they can- they have that attitude? Maybe some of the acting was okay, but coupled with the character's personalities made me wish for someone to go on that ship an smack them. They're some lucky they died quickly instead of being boarded by the Jem'Hadar... what would they do then? Flail around their "Red Squad" pins and say, "we're special, we win!! Go back to your ship!!"
Love the comparison with LotF though- never thought about it, cuz its been so long, but thats right on the money.
I didn't think the acting was that great- the kids just sounded stuck up to me, like when people who can't act but *think* they can- they have that attitude? Maybe some of the acting was okay, but coupled with the character's personalities made me wish for someone to go on that ship an smack them. They're some lucky they died quickly instead of being boarded by the Jem'Hadar... what would they do then? Flail around their "Red Squad" pins and say, "we're special, we win!! Go back to your ship!!"
Love the comparison with LotF though- never thought about it, cuz its been so long, but thats right on the money.
Wouldn't the communications silence have played a major role?
It appeared that in all likelihood, Nog was an actual commissioned officer - but they couldn't actually check on that. How can they turn over command of a ship without confirming the identity of the person they're turning it over to?
What if Janeway and all the senior officers had perished? How could Paris ever confirm Tuvok's story? Wouldn't it be irresponsible to turn over Voyager to Tuvok on Tuvok's word? (Turning over command to Chakotay, despite him clearly having the best qualifications, would be out of the question.)
It appeared that in all likelihood, Nog was an actual commissioned officer - but they couldn't actually check on that. How can they turn over command of a ship without confirming the identity of the person they're turning it over to?
What if Janeway and all the senior officers had perished? How could Paris ever confirm Tuvok's story? Wouldn't it be irresponsible to turn over Voyager to Tuvok on Tuvok's word? (Turning over command to Chakotay, despite him clearly having the best qualifications, would be out of the question.)
Presumably Tuvok's information would be in the computer, besides Janeway did tell Paris that her chief of security was on Chakotay's ship. Besides, Nog was in full uniform and being the only real commissioned officer, should have taken command. IIRC they were originally going to use Kira for this story but realized that she would simply take over the ship because she's a strong character. To me that means that they knew that the story didnt work well or hold up to scrutiny so they used a weaker character to sort of force it to work.
I didn't realize that Paris was told - that certainly changes things. I doubt that the information would be accessible in the computer though, even to Starfleet officers - too many defections to the Maquis, and little if anything is more sensitive than the identities of undercover operatives.
I agree regarding the episode in question - plot holes papered up, rather than thought through and properly removed.
The episode might have worked better without any DS9 presence, actually, but they really didn't want to do that.
It was hilarious to see the gung-ho cadets utterly smoked by the Dominion ship.
If anyone deserved it, they did.
It was a very good episode because it showed yet another crack in "perfect" Federation/Starfleet society.
I still remember that awful line Wesley said in TNG:
"I'm with Starfleet.....we don't lie!"
If anyone deserved it, they did.
It was a very good episode because it showed yet another crack in "perfect" Federation/Starfleet society.
I still remember that awful line Wesley said in TNG:
"I'm with Starfleet.....we don't lie!"
I would have loved it if Waters had lived... just long enough to be beamed onto the Defiant, and be bee-otch slapped by Sisko... 
Twelve years since the last post or not, I just watched this episode for the first time and it stuck with me as a really interesting rebuttal to a lot of typical science fiction cliches. The group of academy cadets and plucky young heroes stuck with a super-advanced warship before deciding to take it behind enemy lines to save the day. It makes absolutely no sense in a real life military and not much more in Star Trek but it's a perfect Mobile Suit Gundam or anime sort of storyline.
And it ends with them all horribly killed.
Its not the first time either as we saw this as the premise for Wrath of Khan too except it was Kirk's overconfidence there. Now we're going to see PRODIGY take the same premise except, of course, it's not a wartime situation.
I will say that I think, even in universe, Waters is engaged in a bunch of complete tribble****ing to "his" crew and making wildly questionable decisions based on the most loosest possible interpretations of "orders." He's living out his Captain Kirk fantasy and looking for a way to be a big hero so if he ever returned to Starfleet, he wouldn't be thrown in the brig or sent to Australia's penal colony.
After all, the Valiant as an additional Defiant-class vessel during the Dominion War might have made a BIG difference in a lot of battles.
And it ends with them all horribly killed.
Its not the first time either as we saw this as the premise for Wrath of Khan too except it was Kirk's overconfidence there. Now we're going to see PRODIGY take the same premise except, of course, it's not a wartime situation.
I will say that I think, even in universe, Waters is engaged in a bunch of complete tribble****ing to "his" crew and making wildly questionable decisions based on the most loosest possible interpretations of "orders." He's living out his Captain Kirk fantasy and looking for a way to be a big hero so if he ever returned to Starfleet, he wouldn't be thrown in the brig or sent to Australia's penal colony.
After all, the Valiant as an additional Defiant-class vessel during the Dominion War might have made a BIG difference in a lot of battles.
It's interesting to view this episode, because it both manages to reinforce the overall depiction of war in DS9 (that real victory requires experience, strategy, and assessment of risk) while also demonstrating why ships like the Enterprise were so often successful (as their unique technological solutions came from the very best Starfleet minds having put the work in the field to get that kind of knowledge).
For a story that is in many ways another dark DS9 deconstruction, it does in its way illustrate why the crews on the various series before and after are so good at what they do.
For a story that is in many ways another dark DS9 deconstruction, it does in its way illustrate why the crews on the various series before and after are so good at what they do.
I don't think Waters had even thought as far ahead as weighing their reception on earth as heroes vs. cadets who should have made contact with Starfleet as soon as all the grownups were killed. Waters and his crew are still adolescents who aren't really that great at long-term thinking.
Let’s go forward in time a bit…and ask…if their attack upon the battleship actually had been successful, what then? Waters might have returned a hero. But the universe, as always, knows just how to ruin anyone’s plans…Jake could feel that. He might have done a piece on Locarno a week before. Had his father been lost…he could have been more gung-ho.
While it's unaddressed in the episode, there's also the tension between Red Squad as "The Elite Valedictorians of Starfleet Academy" and the fact that they were involved in high treason. I had to wonder if that was in the back of Waters mind that he was overcompensating.
Both "The First Duty", "The Valiant", and "Tapestry" are all variations on the folly of youth by Ronald D. Moore.
Lorcano was said by him to basically be a Young Picard or Kirk in the making. However, he doesn't yet have the experience or humility to back up his checks. Waters thinks he can pull off what amounts to a Death Star trench run because he's full of delusions of being a Star Trek protagonist but he doesn't have a backup plan or the sense to turn around. He's chasing personal glory and that is something that has a history in the RL military of getting you fragged by veteran soldiers.
Hell, there's even the greed element that Waters could have returned with that information as a hero (unlikely, I do think Starfleet would be furious that he denied them a vital military resource for months). However, he wanted to have his "Kirk and the Doomsday Machine" moment.
Both "The First Duty", "The Valiant", and "Tapestry" are all variations on the folly of youth by Ronald D. Moore.
Lorcano was said by him to basically be a Young Picard or Kirk in the making. However, he doesn't yet have the experience or humility to back up his checks. Waters thinks he can pull off what amounts to a Death Star trench run because he's full of delusions of being a Star Trek protagonist but he doesn't have a backup plan or the sense to turn around. He's chasing personal glory and that is something that has a history in the RL military of getting you fragged by veteran soldiers.
Hell, there's even the greed element that Waters could have returned with that information as a hero (unlikely, I do think Starfleet would be furious that he denied them a vital military resource for months). However, he wanted to have his "Kirk and the Doomsday Machine" moment.
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