*Checks elsewhere online* Oh. I must be merging the plots of WOTW an AR together. My mistake. Could've sworn the Martok reveal was in WOTW. Sorry about that.
Question about General Martok (sort of)
- Thread starter tim0122
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*Checks elsewhere online* Oh. I must be merging the plots of WOTW an AR together. My mistake. Could've sworn the Martok reveal was in WOTW. Sorry about that.
What doesn't make sense is that when Changeling Martok is exposed, he doesn't understand klingon "honor". Anyone impersonating a well respected figure should certainly do his homework.
Maybe, but I don't think most non-Klingons totally understand Klingon honor either.
Yet he was impersonating a klingon. Any spy goes through extensive training and preparation so they fit into the society they are infiltrating. Especially when said spy could virtually replace a primary actor in the targets military. To be clueless about honor and dueling etc is simply careless writing.
Something about killing Gowron in a way that would be the equivalent of walking up behind him and stabbing him in the back.
Ah. Yes, you would think that even if the changeling didn't fully understand how Klingon's behave, that would clearly be a no-no.
Yes. You can either chalk it up to bad writing or to that Changeling either not being very good at what he/she does or just behaving rashly in an important situation.
I think it pretty much has to be considered either a tiny misunderstanding in an otherwise solid concept of Klingon behavior, or just a miscalculation/mental lapse born out of desperation. It's also worth remembering that at the moment at which he first made the suggestion, he wasn't talking to Klingons, so he may have thought that they simply wouldn't know that his suggestion was un-Klingon.
The idea that he really didn't understand honor in general pretty much flies in the face of the fact that he had already impersonated Gowron for months on end, with the Klingons never noticing anything wrong. Unless he just killed every Klingon that noticed and claimed they insulted his honor?
The idea that he really didn't understand honor in general pretty much flies in the face of the fact that he had already impersonated Gowron for months on end, with the Klingons never noticing anything wrong. Unless he just killed every Klingon that noticed and claimed they insulted his honor?
Neither Martok or Odo ever say that Martok doesn't understand honor. Odo says that the Changelings don't care about honor. Martok simply says that there will be no honorable combat (when the idea gets floated by Worf), that he wants the Starfleet people to kill Gowron. Obviously it's a miscalculation on his part, but it doesn't mean that he is so stupid as to not understand the concept of honor.
You mean Martok, right? He was the changeling, not Gowron.
Correct, sorry for the typo.
As I said, that he was exposed because he did not understand a basic concept of klingon honor that even those stupid humans got is sloppy IMO. Having been immersed in Klingon culture for who knows how long plus advanced study time should have had him more knowledgeable.
But it's vice versa - incompetent humans and infant Changelings are the ones making erroneous interpretations of Klingon honor. No real Klingon, including Worf, sees any fault in what "Martok" does, and they are both the true experts and the target "Martok" has to fool.
Martok is exposed by accident, through a mistake our heroes make. It's not something he could have avoided by being more Klingon.
Timo Saloniemi
There's being able to understand Klingon honor in the abstract, and there's having a full understanding of how it will be applied to individual behavior. Just like there's understanding jealousy in the abstract but still being shocked when a person lashes out violently because of it.
Changelings other than Odo have much less experience observing alpha quadrant races. They understand AQ races' behavior in the abstract but they don't have the years of experience directly observing it that Odo does.
Changelings other than Odo have much less experience observing alpha quadrant races. They understand AQ races' behavior in the abstract but they don't have the years of experience directly observing it that Odo does.
Or then vice versa again: the Founders have been studying the Klingons, their supposed main adversary in Alpha, for several years without misleading preconceptions, relentlessly and meticulously finding out what really makes them tick, while Odo has just scowled at a couple of passing Klingons, dismissing them as Cardassians with funny foreheads.
Yet Odo is a policeman. He knows Martok is a crook, even though he can't quite put his finger on how and why. He pokes nevertheless, because that's what policemen do. And he finally provokes the reaction that he hoped for, even when he's hopelessly off base...
It's the "Armageddon Game" thing over again:
"I knew the recording about your death was a clumsy fake because you never drink coffee in the morning!"
"Uh, dear, I do. Pretty often in fact."
Timo Saloniemi
Yet Odo is a policeman. He knows Martok is a crook, even though he can't quite put his finger on how and why. He pokes nevertheless, because that's what policemen do. And he finally provokes the reaction that he hoped for, even when he's hopelessly off base...
It's the "Armageddon Game" thing over again:
"I knew the recording about your death was a clumsy fake because you never drink coffee in the morning!"
"Uh, dear, I do. Pretty often in fact."
Timo Saloniemi
Fair enough, I can't quite agree with you but you're making perfect sense. And I never cared enough for the ending of Armageddon Game either - "we"ll hire you to destroy our WMD's, then kill you and cover it up" just seemed kinda pointless.
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