Quantum torpedos in Phot torp launchers?
- Thread starter USSHermes
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I think they tried to modify it in Voyager.
To be sure, we haven't seen any single tube in Star Trek launch both types of munition so far - which might lead us to thinking that quantums require a dedicated launcher type.
The closest we get is indeed VOY "Dreadnought", where the Cardassian automated warship they encountered carried a load of quantum torpedoes for self-defense, and Janeway had hopes of modifying those torpedoes to match the hero ship's launchers. Such modifications would have to overcome compatibility problems between UFP and Cardassian systems, thus obscuring any evidence of whether quantums as such would be compatible or incompatible with launchers that fire photons.
Timo Saloniemi
The closest we get is indeed VOY "Dreadnought", where the Cardassian automated warship they encountered carried a load of quantum torpedoes for self-defense, and Janeway had hopes of modifying those torpedoes to match the hero ship's launchers. Such modifications would have to overcome compatibility problems between UFP and Cardassian systems, thus obscuring any evidence of whether quantums as such would be compatible or incompatible with launchers that fire photons.
Timo Saloniemi
The Defiant was seen firing both Photon and Quantum torpedoes from it's launchers if I'm not mistaken.
There was an episode from the mirror universe where the ship used new types of Photons to be exact, but still no quantums.
Voyager to my recollection mentioned that Quantum torpedoes on the Dreadnaught are compatible with their launchers (and would require no modification - probably because the ship was already new enough to accommodate a more versatile photon launcher).
There was an episode from the mirror universe where the ship used new types of Photons to be exact, but still no quantums.
Voyager to my recollection mentioned that Quantum torpedoes on the Dreadnaught are compatible with their launchers (and would require no modification - probably because the ship was already new enough to accommodate a more versatile photon launcher).
I always thought that photon torpedoes and quantum torpedoes were roughly the same size and could be fired from the same launchers. I could see them being different in shape if their internal hardware was different, though.
Maybe quantum torpedoes still haven't reached the point where they can be mass-produced in very large quantities like photorps can...
Maybe quantum torpedoes still haven't reached the point where they can be mass-produced in very large quantities like photorps can...
The cheek fairing launchers only ever fired quantums, in the episode "Defiant". Other episodes referred to the firing of quantums but didn't show it.
Photons were only ever fired aft, in "Paradise Lost" (shown) and "Way of the Warrior" (mentioned).
Probes were only ever fired from the tube/chute under the bow. Since other shows have shown other ships firing photons and probes from the same tubes, we might speculate that the Defiant has a standard photon torpedo launcher located in this position (as shown in some of the otherwise dubious Okudagram cutaways of the ship), plus another astern (as evidenced in "Paradise Lost"), while the cheek fairings hold the very special quantum torpedo launchers. And never mind that the launcher under the bow was also shown firing a phaser beam in one episode...
Chakotay's specific words to Janeway were:
Might be, or then not. We never saw a prop for the latter type, after all. The launchers on the Defiant have suspiciously small muzzles, though (mainly because those holes were never supposed to be torpedo tubes - they were part of the mechanism that would launch the cheek lifeboats, back when the ship was supposed to be less than half the later implied size). The launcher on the E-E in turn has a suspiciously wide muzzle.
Perhaps there's no standard casing for q-torps yet, contrary to the p-torp situation? Perhaps different types of starship carry drastically different types and sizes of q-torp?
On the compatibility issue, I doubt it's a matter of physical size - various sizes and shapes of object have been ejected by the E-D forward tube, for example. It's probably more a matter of some special trick that has to be performed on q-torps to prime them (or perhaps to keep them from becoming primed?), calling for a big and complex and possibly dangerous thingamabob that most torpedo launchers or loaders lack.
Timo Saloniemi
Or it could be that photorps and quantum torpedoes use the same casing and that the launcher designs vary from ship-to-ship. Some launchers may be configured to fire a certain number of torpedoes in a continuous spread.
The DS9 TM suggests that they could theoretically be launched from similar tubes, and the illustrated quantum torpedo looks like a more streamlined, futuristic version of the traditional photon torpedo casing.
Yeah. Interestingly enough, the markings on the quantum torpedo in the DS9 Tech Manual read "PHO-TORP MARK Q-II," which might suggest the angular casing is also used for some photon torpedoes as well. Could be that there truly might not be a standard casing for either weapon and it could vary from ship to ship as Timo kind of suggested above.
It's a bit odd, then, that there does exist a standard casing of sorts, one that is seen whenever a torpedo casing needs to be portrayed. This means that not only do all the hero ships of the TNG era have the same sort of casing (even if we only saw it used as a coffin for the VOY and DS9 hero ships), but e.g. the Amargosa Observatory also sports the same hardware, and ships from a century back (TOS movies) or two centuries back (ENT) fire the same casings. That's major standardization to be taken into consideration.
Some launchers (like the TOS movie one) seem ill fitted to fire anything bigger than the standard casing. But if q-torps can be packed into that sort of casing, or into the more angular-nosed one postulated in the DS9 TM and also proposed for ST:FC, then the casing shouldn't be a problem for any of the ships: those with the smallest tubes could still fire it, and those with larger tubes capable of accommodating big probes or cluster munitions (E-D!) would have even less of a problem.
Casing would only be a problem if q-torps required a big one. The E-D could still fire it without modifications, but the E-A or the Defiant might have trouble. This is a bit dubious, though, because the smallish Defiant with her tiny torpedo holes is the one ship we know to be capable of firing the things!
I'd thus abandon casing size and shape altogether as an explanation for possible incompatibility of q-torps. The exotic-sounding warhead might be the real culprit here. It might be something you either cannot arm with an arming/loading device designed to feed antimatter to photorps, or don't want to arm in proximity of an arming/loading device that handles antimatter!
Timo Saloniemi
Some launchers (like the TOS movie one) seem ill fitted to fire anything bigger than the standard casing. But if q-torps can be packed into that sort of casing, or into the more angular-nosed one postulated in the DS9 TM and also proposed for ST:FC, then the casing shouldn't be a problem for any of the ships: those with the smallest tubes could still fire it, and those with larger tubes capable of accommodating big probes or cluster munitions (E-D!) would have even less of a problem.
Casing would only be a problem if q-torps required a big one. The E-D could still fire it without modifications, but the E-A or the Defiant might have trouble. This is a bit dubious, though, because the smallish Defiant with her tiny torpedo holes is the one ship we know to be capable of firing the things!
I'd thus abandon casing size and shape altogether as an explanation for possible incompatibility of q-torps. The exotic-sounding warhead might be the real culprit here. It might be something you either cannot arm with an arming/loading device designed to feed antimatter to photorps, or don't want to arm in proximity of an arming/loading device that handles antimatter!
Timo Saloniemi
But as you said earlier, we've never seen a prop for a quantum torpedo, however. Or it could be that the differences in casings are so slight to be neglible from a distance. We could take it even further and simply have the differences be in the materials used.
If we take the DS9 Tech Manual into account with onscreen evidence, both the standard and the angular casings are apparently used. Ignoring the Manual, however, takes us back to what I said earlier about photorps and quantum torpedoes using the same casings.
I think most of us were leaning towards the idea that size and shape wasn't an issue and that quantum torpedoes probably can be fired from the same launcher that a photon torpedo could. Incompatibility would then be an internal matter with the quantum torpedo rather than an external one, IMO.
Quantums probably use the same or similar casing, but different method of creating energy. After all, propulsion unit and the sensor unit on the casing would be the same in both torpedoes, probably.
They were originally envisioned to be silver bullets against Borg. May be they were one of the weapons Geordi was talking about in Botbw. If you read the original script for FC, you'll see that dozens of cubes invaded Federation space, and the fleet was doing well against them because they were equipped with quantum torpedoes which took out over 30 Borg ships. Basically, Q torpedoes are like transphasic torpedoes for the final voyager episode = a weapon capable of penetrating Borg adaptation technology. This suggests that the fleet was meant to be able to upgrade to the new weapons easily. They either modified their launchers, or were able to use q torps without any modification. I tend to lead towards slight modification.
They were originally envisioned to be silver bullets against Borg. May be they were one of the weapons Geordi was talking about in Botbw. If you read the original script for FC, you'll see that dozens of cubes invaded Federation space, and the fleet was doing well against them because they were equipped with quantum torpedoes which took out over 30 Borg ships. Basically, Q torpedoes are like transphasic torpedoes for the final voyager episode = a weapon capable of penetrating Borg adaptation technology. This suggests that the fleet was meant to be able to upgrade to the new weapons easily. They either modified their launchers, or were able to use q torps without any modification. I tend to lead towards slight modification.
It probably comes down to the launching mechanism itself.
For Voyager, it was likely easier to make the modifications on the torpedoes themselves instead of the launchers.
Like I said, it was launched roughly around the same time Quantum torpedoes were first seen by us (the viewers) in use and used bio-neural circuitry to augment computer response times.
Although, it's likely the Enterprise-E has a dedicated quantum torpedo launcher because it was the first in the fleet to use them, while later on it was seen that either the torpedoes, or the launchers could be modified to ensure compatibility.
For Voyager, it was likely easier to make the modifications on the torpedoes themselves instead of the launchers.
Like I said, it was launched roughly around the same time Quantum torpedoes were first seen by us (the viewers) in use and used bio-neural circuitry to augment computer response times.
Although, it's likely the Enterprise-E has a dedicated quantum torpedo launcher because it was the first in the fleet to use them, while later on it was seen that either the torpedoes, or the launchers could be modified to ensure compatibility.
...OTOH, there's no canon indication that the q-torps would have been an anti-Borg weapon, or that they would have been particularly useful against the cyborgs for some other reason. Indeed, ST:FC spectacularly failed to show the Defiant firing any kind of torpedo at the Borg. FWIW, the E-E seemed to be the only ship firing bluish-white torps, and those were the ones specifically identified as quantums.
It would be odd to the extreme for Starfleet to banish the only demonstrably q-torp-capable ship in its arsenal from the big Borg fight... If q-torps were the weapon of choice against the Borg.
Banishing the E-E means that the ship or her weaponry wasn't exceptionally good against the Borg, and indeed probably also that she was worse than the average starship; otherwise, Starfleet would not have banished the ship, but would merely have banished Picard.
In the end, we're still left with the fact that only two Starfleet ships have ever fired q-torps onscreen, and both of them had dedicated launchers (or at least launchers that were never seen firing any other type of projectile) for the task. One doesn't need to build an all-new ship to accommodate such launchers; one can refit an old Excelsior, as "Paradise Lost" proves. But again, "Paradise Lost" fails to show that the launchers of the modified Lakota would have still been capable of firing regular photon torpedoes...
Timo Saloniemi
It would be odd to the extreme for Starfleet to banish the only demonstrably q-torp-capable ship in its arsenal from the big Borg fight... If q-torps were the weapon of choice against the Borg.
Banishing the E-E means that the ship or her weaponry wasn't exceptionally good against the Borg, and indeed probably also that she was worse than the average starship; otherwise, Starfleet would not have banished the ship, but would merely have banished Picard.
In the end, we're still left with the fact that only two Starfleet ships have ever fired q-torps onscreen, and both of them had dedicated launchers (or at least launchers that were never seen firing any other type of projectile) for the task. One doesn't need to build an all-new ship to accommodate such launchers; one can refit an old Excelsior, as "Paradise Lost" proves. But again, "Paradise Lost" fails to show that the launchers of the modified Lakota would have still been capable of firing regular photon torpedoes...
Timo Saloniemi
^I know it's not canon that they anti-borg, I just wrote that to show what was going on in the writers' minds. Originally, it was anti-borg, and most ships would be outfitted with them, showing that you don't need to make extensive changes to ships to use them. They must have changed that story at the last minute to make Picard more of a hero.
Strange. I always assumed the torpedo launchers were merely glorified magnetic railguns which accelerated the the casing to a specific speed so it could clear the hull and the torpedo's own drive system could kick in.
Today's torpedo tubes aren't much different. The launcher doesn't care what kind of drive or warhead the torpedo uses as long as it fits the shape and you specify the amount of pressure required to push it past the tube.
Today's torpedo tubes aren't much different. The launcher doesn't care what kind of drive or warhead the torpedo uses as long as it fits the shape and you specify the amount of pressure required to push it past the tube.
Aircraft weapon pylons are pretty nicely standardized, too, and moving a couple of latches isn't a big problem there, either.
The problems are probably related to other aspects of the weapon to be fired. The launching starship might not be able to control the weapon in flight (although q-torps don't seem to portray any unusual flight characteristics). She might be unable to load or prime the warheads (which supposeldy indeed are exotic). She might be unable to store the warheads (which may be more volatile than photon ones, especially if the latter can be stored dry, empty of antimatter, while the former need to have that zero point energy whachamacallem tapping into alternate realms all the time, or whatever). She might be unable to handle the launch exhausts (say, an activated ZPE warhead might create unwelcome radiation in the launch tube already, or spit out some exotica along with the propulsive exhaust if the ZPE load takes part in the creating of that exhaust).
Today, the problems in aircraft/weapon compatibility are mainly related to software, or the availability of necessary support gear (guidance system, starting power source, perhaps cooling) aboard the aircraft. Submarines suffer compatibility problems from weapon lifetime issues; there used to be health problems with storing the Mk 48 and Subroc nuclear warheads, too, but those are supposedly no longer in use.
Timo Saloniemi
The problems are probably related to other aspects of the weapon to be fired. The launching starship might not be able to control the weapon in flight (although q-torps don't seem to portray any unusual flight characteristics). She might be unable to load or prime the warheads (which supposeldy indeed are exotic). She might be unable to store the warheads (which may be more volatile than photon ones, especially if the latter can be stored dry, empty of antimatter, while the former need to have that zero point energy whachamacallem tapping into alternate realms all the time, or whatever). She might be unable to handle the launch exhausts (say, an activated ZPE warhead might create unwelcome radiation in the launch tube already, or spit out some exotica along with the propulsive exhaust if the ZPE load takes part in the creating of that exhaust).
Today, the problems in aircraft/weapon compatibility are mainly related to software, or the availability of necessary support gear (guidance system, starting power source, perhaps cooling) aboard the aircraft. Submarines suffer compatibility problems from weapon lifetime issues; there used to be health problems with storing the Mk 48 and Subroc nuclear warheads, too, but those are supposedly no longer in use.
Timo Saloniemi
No, it's definitely not canon the quantum torpedoes are anti-Borg weapons, but the Enterprise was stated to be the most advanced in the fleet at the time of FC movie.
The most advanced certainly doesn't imply 'the most powerful', however, for the sake of what the writers wanted to convey, they usually do mean that more powerful comes with better advancement.
Voyager was after all state of the art at the time of launch.
It wasn't the most powerful, but was on-par with a Galaxy class ship in terms of weapons and shields (sans the torpedo count).
A vessel as large as the Sovereign class would likely be able to surpass Galaxy class ships at the time of launch in virtually everything (except in size and possibly torpedo count).
The most advanced certainly doesn't imply 'the most powerful', however, for the sake of what the writers wanted to convey, they usually do mean that more powerful comes with better advancement.
Voyager was after all state of the art at the time of launch.
It wasn't the most powerful, but was on-par with a Galaxy class ship in terms of weapons and shields (sans the torpedo count).
A vessel as large as the Sovereign class would likely be able to surpass Galaxy class ships at the time of launch in virtually everything (except in size and possibly torpedo count).
...Alternately, the Sovereign might have one hypermodern system, possibly installed at the cost of having most other systems be second-rate.
Or then LaForge might simply have been blowing hot air when he claimed the E-E was an advanced vessel. Possibly "advanced" is synonym for "not working yet"?
We're left wanting for some explanation on why Starfleet chose not to have the E-E defend Earth from the Borg. And the explanation can't be "we don't trust Picard", because then Starfleet would simply jail Picard (or execute him, because part of him could still be Locutus and betray the Federation even from jail) and have Riker use the ship for saving Earth again. One possibility is that the E-E was substandard or unfinished; the other, as such sufficient possibility is that the E-E was merely on par with the rest of the fleet, and thus there was no pressing need to send her.
Timo Saloniemi
Or then LaForge might simply have been blowing hot air when he claimed the E-E was an advanced vessel. Possibly "advanced" is synonym for "not working yet"?
We're left wanting for some explanation on why Starfleet chose not to have the E-E defend Earth from the Borg. And the explanation can't be "we don't trust Picard", because then Starfleet would simply jail Picard (or execute him, because part of him could still be Locutus and betray the Federation even from jail) and have Riker use the ship for saving Earth again. One possibility is that the E-E was substandard or unfinished; the other, as such sufficient possibility is that the E-E was merely on par with the rest of the fleet, and thus there was no pressing need to send her.
Timo Saloniemi
