Noonian v. Noonien

[Herbert1]

When did Khan Noonian Singh become Khan Noonien Singh. In the Star Trek Concordance by Bjo Trimble the name is spelled Khan Noonian Singh, I presume that this is the way it is spelled in the script of "Space Seed", and the Star Trek Encyclopedia and novels spell it Khan Noonien Singh.

Is Noonien with an e a spelling error that was canonized from the Star Trek Encyclopedia?

 

[Christopher]

Hmm, I think you're right. All the, err, pre-Okudaic sources I can think to check -- both editions of the Concordance, the first two editions of the Compendium, The Making of The Wrath of Khan -- spell it "Khan Noonian Singh." The "Noonien" spellings are found in the Chronology, Encyclopedia, Memory Alpha -- more recent stuff. I would assume that it was either an erroneous or deliberate choice to spell it the same way it's spelled in "Noonien Soong."

Still, presumably it's a South Asian name that's transliterated into the Roman alphabet, so one could make a case that either spelling is equally valid.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Is Noonien with an e a spelling error that was canonized from the Star Trek Encyclopedia?

Seems to be. (It was always annoying to me but, as Christopher notes, any exotic name whose spelling gets anglicised can have variations.) Ditto the Encyclopedia's mispelling of Shi'Kahr as ShirKahr, a misspelling that actually ended up on a canonical ship.

Catullan suddenly became Catuallan in a few places; I just noticed that "Memory Alpha" uses Catuallan on one page (no longer!), but I'm sure the original script didn't.

When Richard Arnold was vetting the tie-ins, the authors and editors were told that the "ST Encyclopedia" was to be the definitive source for spellings, and this caused several corrections in manuscripts to be uncorrected, because there are typos in the "Encyclopedia". (There are also many typos in all Concordance versions.)

 

[Herbert1]

Still, presumably it's a South Asian name that's transliterated into the Roman alphabet, so one could make a case that either spelling is equally valid.

Is Noonien or Noonian a Punjabi name? I know that Greg Cox made him a Punjabi Sikh.

 

[Dayton Ward]

I don't think it's just "modern" references and such. I could swear I saw the "Noonien" spelling in something much older. The STII novelization, maybe?

 

[Christopher]

Is Noonien or Noonian a Punjabi name?

Well, Wikipedia's entry on Noonien Soong claims it's Chinese or Korean, but it doesn't sound like either of those to me -- too long to be a surname in either language, and as a given name it would have to be something like Noon Yen or Nu-nyen, but I can't find any Chinese or Korean names (at baby-naming sites) that even resemble either of those (apparently names starting in N are uncommon). It seems vaguely similar to the Vietnamese Nguyen, although that's pronounced more like "(n)wen". And I can't find any online references to the name that aren't either to the Trek characters or to people using Trek-inspired online usernames.

The claim on Wikipedia is that Roddenberry knew a Kim Noonien Singh in WWII. That's an odd name; "Kim" sounds Korean, but "Singh" is Sikh and "Noonien" is unclassifiable. Maybe Roddenberry didn't even remember the guy's name correctly.

I don't think it's just "modern" references and such. I could swear I saw the "Noonien" spelling in something much older. The STII novelization, maybe?

Hmm, I don't have that to check, but it sounds familiar. I do have the impression that she spelled the name differently than the version I was used to. And McIntyre was known to correct errors in her novelizations, like changing "Ceti Alpha" to the correct Bayer designation "Alpha Ceti." So maybe she knew something about how the name was "actually" spelled, but I don't know, since I can't even determine that the name exists outside of the two Trek characters.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I don't think it's just "modern" references and such. I could swear I saw the "Noonien" spelling in something much older. The STII novelization, maybe?

Didn't James Blish use Sibahl Khan Noonien instead of Khan Noonian Singh in his adaptation?

Yep. Presumably it was in an early script draft, and therefore more closely linked to the "Noonien" friend whom Gene was trying to signal.

Memory Alpha notes, "In writer Carey Wilber's original treatment, the Khan character is a Nordic superman named Harold Erricsen. This evolved in the first draft, where the character first introduces himself as John Ericssen, but is later revealed to be Ragnar Thorwald, who was involved in "the First World Tyranny". Thorwald is more brutal in this version of the story, where he dispatches the guard outside his quarters with a phaser. (Star Trek Magazine issue 120)." No mention of James Blish using Sibahl Khan Noonien. Yet.

 

[Herbert1]

The claim on Wikipedia is that Roddenberry knew a Kim Noonien Singh in WWII. That's an odd name; "Kim" sounds Korean, but "Singh" is Sikh and "Noonien" is unclassifiable. Maybe Roddenberry didn't even remember the guy's name correctly.

It could be the English boy's name Kim. I presume that Khan is really a title that he assumed and not a first name for the character even though it is used as such and specifically mentioned by Greg Cox. He conquered a quarter of the world.

I guess Noonien could be a name from another language from the territory that he conquered and he also wasn't given this name at birth. Or the Noonien could just be an unusual spelling when Anglocizing a Punjabi name.

 

[Christopher]

The closest Punjabi or other Indian names I can find online are Nandin, Nayan, Nityanan, Noor Udeen, and Nu'man. Here's the most exhaustive list I could find: http://www.bachpan.com/Punjabi-Boy-Names-N.aspx

 

[foravalon]

Therin is correct, the only time Khan's name appears in the Blish novelization is as "Sibahl Khan Noonien". Curiously, everywhere else in the story he's referred to as simply as Commander "Kahn" with that spelling.

McIntyre only uses Khan's full name once in TWOK novelization,

"But I wanted you to know, as you die, who has beaten you: Khan Noonian Singh, the prince you tried to exile.”

Presumably, the official change had already taken place at that point in 1982 unless the change had been editorially retconned in the subsequent reprints.

 

[Christopher]

McIntyre only uses Khan's full name once in TWOK novelization,

"But I wanted you to know, as you die, who has beaten you: Khan Noonian Singh, the prince you tried to exile.”

Presumably, the official change had already taken place at that point in 1982 unless the change had been editorially retconned in the subsequent reprints.

Huh? What change? You're giving the old spelling there. It's the Blish that uses the now-standard "Noonien" spelling, at least in the editions you and I have (mine is the 1991 omnibus reprint).

 

[Therin of Andor]

Huh? What change? You're giving the old spelling there. It's the Blish that uses the now-standard "Noonien" spelling, at least in the editions you and I have (mine is the 1991 omnibus reprint).

What he means is, the Bjo Trimble "ST Concordance" spelling was the standard for a very long time, but the Blish use of "Noonien" presumably pre-dates this, and comes from the early script he was using.

 

[Christopher]

^^Read it again. He's quoting the TWOK novelization and then saying that the spelling change had presumably come about by the time it was written in 1982. In other words, he seems to be saying that the TWOK novelization uses the "modern" spelling. But in the excerpt he quoted, it was using the original spelling, at least as he transcribed it.

 

[Therin of Andor]

^^Read it again. He's quoting the TWOK novelization and then saying that the spelling change had presumably come about by the time it was written in 1982. In other words, he seems to be saying that the TWOK novelization uses the "modern" spelling. But in the excerpt he quoted, it was using the original spelling, at least as he transcribed it.

Yes, he's saying that from Blish to Trimble/McIntyre there was indeed a spelling change, which was widely accepted. It was a fairly official change, in that many early Pocket publications would have used the "a" version of Noonien. I'm thinking "The Making of ST II" and the "Star Trek Compendium", etc. And now, since TNG, it's reverted officially to the Blish spelling.

No?

 

[KRAD]

^ Well, I'm now I'm totally confused............

 

[Therin of Andor]

^ Well, I'm now I'm totally confused............

At last!

 

[TGTheodore]

Wait, wait, wait ... it all started with Gary Cooper in High Noonien ... or was it Noonian?

--Ted

 

[foravalon]

Confusion reigns! Yes!!!

My work here is done.


And for the record Therin is correct and Christopher is incorrect.


Allamariane!

 

[Therin of Andor]

And for the record Therin is correct and Christopher is incorrect.

It was an accident. Honestly.

 

[Christopher]

Yes, he's saying that from Blish to Trimble/McIntyre there was indeed a spelling change, which was widely accepted. It was a fairly official change, in that many early Pocket publications would have used the "a" version of Noonien. I'm thinking "The Making of ST II" and the "Star Trek Compendium", etc. And now, since TNG, it's reverted officially to the Blish spelling.

No?

I think you're reading too much into Blish's use of the "Noonien" spelling, considering that he didn't even get the character's full name right. Just because he called the character Sibahl Khan Noonien, that doesn't prove it was spelled Khan Noonien Singh in the script -- particularly given that he spelled "Khan" as "Kahn" the rest of the time. So citing Blish as evidence of an "official" spelling makes no sense whatsoever. Prior to the TNG era, every source other than Blish spelled it Noonian, so Blish stands out as an anomaly, not an exemplar.

For what it's worth, the closed-captioning text reproduced on that Czech transcript site spells it "Noonien," but there's no telling when that text was typed up or what it was based on.

What we need is to refer to the original script. Surely there's somebody on this BBS who's purchased a copy from Lincoln Enterprises/Roddenberry.com and can check what it says?