News Next Arrowverse Crossover to Include Batwoman

[Kirk Prime]

I didn't mind too much that evil superman bested Superman in their first fight. After all, Keegan might have made himself a slightly more powerful version of our Superman. Plus, Superman may have underestimated him since it was their first fight. And there are plenty of times in the comics and movies that Superman appears to lose his first fight but then ultimately comes back and wins in the end!

I didn't mind offense, but Superman isn't going to underestimate a guy with his same powers. Making Superman stupid is not understanding the character. He wasn't as dumb as he was in BvS, but after he saved the helicopter, it was all Deegan. You're right about Superman in the comics and movies getting the upperhand later, which would have been fine--except it didn't happen.

But the speech at the end where he tells Kara that she is stronger than him and Earth does not need a Superman when they have Supergirl, really irked me. It was so unnecessary. Clark could still encourage Kara without putting himself down. He could have said "I believe in you and I am confident our Earth is in good hands while I am gone!" That's expressing confidence in Kara without putting himself down in the process.

Exactly. I didn't even mind him taking a short time off for Lois, but to have him become Supersubmissive was horrible and very out of character. It's the insecurity of the writers. Superman can be the top dog and not make Kara seem less if the writers were more confident. But instead they want Superman to exist to make Kara out to be his better, which is simply not the case, if Superman were written in character.

How about, "Kara, I'm so proud of you and I believe in you. Lois is pregnant, and for her safety, we need to live on Argo until the baby is born. But I know that Earth is protected with you here until I can get back. But if there is an emergency and you ever need me, I will be there."

That's a lot better than, "I'm so inferior to you, you are so much better than me. Earth doesn't need me because the far superior Supergirl is there doing all the things that I can't because I'm just a piece of garbage man and my penis makes me less than you, almighty woman."

Superman was completely in character here. His greatest power is the way he builds other people up, sees the best in them and helps them see the best in themselves.

No. That's not Superman. Superman is confident. Superman knows what he wants to do. Yes, he is humble, but there's a difference between humble and submissive. Superman can build people up without tearing himself down. He can inspire by example and leadership. Superman was essentially ceding that role to Kara, which was very out of character.

And Superman would never let someone put themselves in danger when he can take that risk himself, which essentially what he is doing here.

Also, Kara is in National City--who protects Metropolis?

Don't get me wrong, I loved the crossover, but the writers did not do any justice to Superman, again, and they also ripped us off with the 1990 Flash, who was literally dismissed with the wave of a hand.

 

[Romulan_spy]

It's not "putting himself down," it's just being characteristically humble and selfless. Look at the writings of the finest people in history, like Gandhi, and they rarely have anything positive to say about themselves; all their praise is reserved for others, while they freely admit their own flaws and imperfections and their struggle to improve. The people who praise themselves the most are the egotistical jerks, the narcissists, the villains. Superman was completely in character here. His greatest power is the way he builds other people up, sees the best in them and helps them see the best in themselves.

Heck, if anything, Super-Deegan was a textbook example of how dangerous Superman would be if he weren't humble and selfless, if he didn't always elevate others above himself. And someone as powerful as Superman has no reason to feel the insecurity that goads men in our society to be afraid to admit weakness. He embodies a healthier masculinity, the kind that's about using your strength to lift up others rather than to feed your own pride and self-importance.

Superman could still be humble (a good thing) and lift Kara up (also good) if he had said what I suggested, "Kara, I believe in you and I know our Earth is in good hands!". That would have been exactly what you are describing. Also, I was not suggesting that Superman should praise himself or brag on himself. Not putting yourself down does not mean that you have to go the other extreme and be arrogant and narcissist. Superman can be humble and still not put himself down. Maybe what you are really saying is that in this universe, Kara is truly stronger than Clark and he is simply secure enough in his masculinity that he can accept it and he is not ashamed about it. If that is the case, then I guess my real problem is that, as a fan of Superman, I don't want him to be weaker than Supergirl. But again, I am not suggesting that Superman should ever be arrogant. I am fine with him lifting Kara up. I just think he can lift her up without mentioning that he is weaker. It is possible to encourage someone by telling them about their strengths without needing to mention your own weaknesses.

 

[Christopher]

I thought it was pretty obvious that Superman was not referring to her physical strength, but to her strength of character. She's had to endure some very heavy burdens. She's suffered more from the loss of Krypton and the relocation to Earth than he has, because she has memories of the life on Krypton that she's lost. She's been at the vanguard of saving the world from Non, the Daxamites, and Reign, all of which had painful personal consequences for her. And she's come through all that with her sanity, her decency, and her idealism intact. That -- not anything as superficial as how much she can bench-press -- is why Superman trusts her as Earth's guardian.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I'm afraid I found this event rather underwhelming overall. Last year's crossover was a home run, but this one mostly felt like an unfocused jumble. It had its moments

The chemistry between the three (Kara, Barry & Oliver) was superior to the previous crossover, but the plot of Elseworlds was ultimately hollow. The middle act was saved by the aforementioned chemistry and all things Batwoman--but that had nothing to do with the plot, and that's a serious problem. If the joined CW/DC shows cannot construct a plot (one that SO wanted to suck some of the vibes from MCU-Thanos and associated Marvel emotional tones) and have the villain actually drive a coherent story justifying all that he's doing, and why the protagonists react as they do, then there's no hope for a well-served Crisis on Infinite Earths adaptation, since that maxi-series was so well structured and delivered, that Wolfman, et al, could not possibly have succeeded with the kind of Monitor seen in this TV crossover.

For all the crossover's hype, last night's Black Lightning was the best CW DC entry this week.

Well, that's been the case for a season and a half of Black Lightning.

But the speech at the end where he tells Kara that she is stronger than him and Earth does not need a Superman when they have Supergirl, really irked me. It was so unnecessary.

Clark could still encourage Kara without putting himself down. He could have said "I believe in you and I am confident our Earth is in good hands while I am gone!" That's expressing confidence in Kara without putting himself down in the process.

But that's been the typical messaging of this series all along. Notice how in the DC movies, you never witnessed any of the heroes downgrading themselves in order to support anyone else, or for reasons that are not in keeping with their character's purpose. Even when the DCEU's Flash had doubts (typical for his age range), he's increasingly aware of his value, and neither he--or Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Aquaman or Cyborg--never had to deflate themselves in order for anyone else to be lifted up. They are all unique to their own abilities / situations, yet they appear strong to each other and the audience, yet the DC/CW showrunners always need to treat Superman in the way you and others pointed out.

 

[Kirk Prime]

I thought it was pretty obvious that Superman was not referring to her physical strength, but to her strength of character.

Which also is ridiculous. Superman is the most just, moral, example of good in the DC universe. His strength of character is second to none. It's insane that he would once again be this submissive wimp, written for the sole purpose of saying that Kara is better than him.

Even when the DCEU's Flash had doubts (typical for his age range), he's increasingly aware of his value, and neither he--or Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Aquaman or Cyborg--never had to deflate themselves in order for anyone else to be lifted up. They are all unique to their own abilities / situations, yet they appear strong to each other and the audience, yet the DC/CW showrunners always need to treat Superman in the way you and others pointed out.

Exactly. I don't understand why these writers feel the need to emasculate and tear Superman down to build Kara up. The ironic part is it has the opposite effect. It makes Kara look very weak if the writers have to dumb Superman down to build Kara up. Security would be having Superman as the top hero--the leader, but Kara living up to him and making him proud. Kara fulfilling her potential and being worthy of the S on her chest is the greatest compliment to Superman, but the writers can't handle that.

 

[The Realist]

"I'm so inferior to you, you are so much better than me. Earth doesn't need me because the far superior Supergirl is there doing all the things that I can't because I'm just a piece of garbage man and my penis makes me less than you, almighty woman."

This is kinda starting to turn me on.

 

[Romulan_spy]

The bottom line is that I am a huge Superman fan. He is the quintessential Superhero with a capital "S". As a superhero, yes, I want him to exhibit great characteristics like humility. But for one of my favorite superheroes to literally say that he is weaker than another hero, is going to be grating.

I thought it was pretty obvious that Superman was not referring to her physical strength, but to her strength of character. She's had to endure some very heavy burdens. She's suffered more from the loss of Krypton and the relocation to Earth than he has, because she has memories of the life on Krypton that she's lost. She's been at the vanguard of saving the world from Non, the Daxamites, and Reign, all of which had painful personal consequences for her. And she's come through all that with her sanity, her decency, and her idealism intact. That -- not anything as superficial as how much she can bench-press -- is why Superman trusts her as Earth's guardian.

I have no doubt that Kara has tremendous strength of character. She has certainly showed incredible strength of character throughout the series. But Clark does not say "Kara, you are strong" or "Kara you have great strength of character" or "Kara, you have enough strength of character to protect Earth.". He says "you are stronger than me" which implies that she has more strength of character than Clark has. What?! As strong as Kara is, why does she have MORE strength of character than Superman? Has Superman not also faced great challenges that strengthened his character just as much as it did for Kara? That's the issue here. The problem is not that Kara is strong, it is that the show is telling us that she is stronger than Superman. Even in terms of strength of character, why would she necessarily be stronger than Superman?

 

[Kirk Prime]

This is kinda starting to turn me on.

No judgement.

The bottom line is that I am a huge Superman fan. He is the quintessential Superhero with a capital "S". As a superhero, yes, I want him to exhibit great characteristics like humility. But for one of my favorite superheroes to literally say that he is weaker than another hero, is going to be grating.

And the writers don't get that at all. Superman should be Kara's hero and confidant. Her mentor. The one SHE looks up to. The one that helps her with the really big stuff. That doesn't make Kara weak. But going against 80 years of history and completely emasculating Superman does not make Kara strong.

I have no doubt that Kara has tremendous strength of character. She has certainly showed incredible strength of character throughout the series. But Clark does not say "Kara, you are strong" or "Kara you have great strength of character" or "Kara, you have enough strength of character to protect Earth.". He says "you are stronger than me" which implies that she has more strength of character than Clark has. What?! As strong as Kara is, why does she have MORE strength of character than Superman? Has Superman not also faced great challenges that strengthened his character just as much as it did for Kara? That's the issue here. The problem is not that Kara is strong, it is that the show is telling us that she is stronger than Superman. Even in terms of strength of character, why would she necessarily be stronger than Superman?

Bingo.

 

[Christopher]

The bottom line is that I am a huge Superman fan. He is the quintessential Superhero with a capital "S". As a superhero, yes, I want him to exhibit great characteristics like humility. But for one of my favorite superheroes to literally say that he is weaker than another hero, is going to be grating.

Then I have to say that I think you've missed the whole point of who Superman is. What makes him great is that he sees everyone else as the strong ones.

 

[Photoman15]

Here's a guess at Oliver's deal with The Monitor. In return for letting Barry and Kara live, the CoIE comes earlier than it would have. It would explain the 2024 newspaper and the timing of next years cross-over.

 

[Romulan_spy]

Superman should be Kara's hero and confidant. Her mentor. The one SHE looks up to.

Yes, and in her first intro, she says that by the time she arrived on Earth as a child, Clark had already grown up and become Superman. So she would have lived her whole childhood watching Clark be the famous Superman. So yeah, she definitely would have looked up to him as an example to emulate and as a mentor. And to be fair, the writers did kinda do that in the first couple of seasons. She would talk highly of her famous cousin. We saw her reach out to him in texts to ask for advice. Maybe now that Supergirl has saved the world a few times, the writers feel like she has graduated and Superman can pass the baton to her now? Supergirl is a hero in her own right, no doubt. I would have no problem with them being equals. After all, they are both strong heroes who have saved the world many times. It's Superman saying that he is less than her that bothers me.

I do wonder if the writers will acknowledge that she has to pull double duty now. For example, will we get a reference that she had to go to France or China to save people there?

 

[Christopher]

Here's a guess at Oliver's deal with The Monitor. In return for letting Barry and Kara live, the CoIE comes earlier than it would have. It would explain the 2024 newspaper and the timing of next years cross-over.

I don't think that can work. The Monitor isn't causing the Crisis; he said in Part 2 that it's being caused by another entity far more powerful than himself (presumably the Anti-Monitor, although you'd expect two beings with those names to be equal and opposite, like matter and antimatter). He's testing various worlds' superheroes to see if they have what it takes to fight the Crisis. So he doesn't determine the rate at which it happens. He's just reacting to it.

 

[Romulan_spy]

Here's a guess at Oliver's deal with The Monitor. In return for letting Barry and Kara live, the CoIE comes earlier than it would have. It would explain the 2024 newspaper and the timing of next years cross-over.

It's more likely that Oliver offered his life in exchange for saving Barry and Kara's life. That's usually how these types of bargains work: a life for a life. So presumably, Oliver agreed to have his destiny changed where he will die at some point in the future instead of living. If I am right, this will have big repercussions for Arrow going forward depending on when they decide to end the show. We could get a scene where Felicity protests but Oliver says "I am so so sorry. I made a deal with the Monitor. I have to give my life now".

 

[Kirk Prime]

Then I have to say that I think you've missed the whole point of who Superman is. What makes him great is that he sees everyone else as the strong ones.

That's simply not accurate. He sees the good in people, but that doesn't mean he sees people as stronger than him. He doesn't lack self confidence. You can see strength in someone without being submissive.

Here's a guess at Oliver's deal with The Monitor. In return for letting Barry and Kara live, the CoIE comes earlier than it would have. It would explain the 2024 newspaper and the timing of next years cross-over.

I like that a lot, but I don't know if the Monitor can bring the Crisis earlier, and I don't know why that's an incentive. Plus, as pointed out above, he doesn't control when it comes.

And to be fair, the writers did kinda do that in the first couple of seasons. She would talk highly of her famous cousin. We saw her reach out to him in texts to ask for advice.

And that was perfect--but it all changed when the writers with the chip on their shoulder had Kara beat Superman in a fight, and then have Superman turning into her submissive.

Supergirl being a hero does not mean Superman has to be weakened. You don't have to be as strong as Superman to match his heroism.

 

[USS Triumphant]

The fan service and eye-candy on this thing was awesome, which made it really enjoyable to watch. The writing was complete crap nine ways from Sunday (literally, since the first part aired Sunday), and that makes it really hard to appreciate on reflection. *Can ANYONE provide anything even approaching a motive for Deegan's behavior?!* I mean, first, as far as I know, we've never even *seen* this guy before for him to have a specific problem with Barry or Oliver, and then second, even if he does have some off-screen reason for that, why in the world would he have the power to rewrite the planet and have left them with their original personalities and memories? And that's just the biggest problem - the smaller problems are too many to enumerate.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

If I am right, this will have big repercussions for Arrow going forward depending on when they decide to end the show. We could get a scene where Felicity protests but Oliver says "I am so so sorry. I made a deal with the Monitor. I have to give my life now".

That would be a decent way to end the Arrow series, but will the showrunners have the stones to end on such a permanent note, or will they have some sparkles-and-rainbows type ending where another character somehow plucks Oliver from the jaws of death at the last second, only to send his to some realm where his still being alive does not disrupt the deal?

 

[Romulan_spy]

The fan service and eye-candy on this thing was awesome, which made it really enjoyable to watch. The writing was complete crap nine ways from Sunday (literally, since the first part aired Sunday), and that makes it really hard to appreciate on reflection. *Can ANYONE provide anything even approaching a motive for Deegan's behavior?!* I mean, first, as far as I know, we've never even *seen* this guy before for him to have a specific problem with Barry or Oliver, and then second, even if he does have some off-screen reason for that, why in the world would he have the power to rewrite the planet and have left them with their original personalities and memories? And that's just the biggest problem - the smaller problems are too many to enumerate.

Maybe we will get answers in the Crisis on Infinite Earths crossover, but I still want to know why the Monitor even bothered with Deegan. I mentioned this before but if the Monitor was testing Earths to prepare them for the upcoming Crisis, why use a mad scientist who did not even know how to use the Book of Destiny? Why did the Monitor not just use the Book himself to do the test properly?

 

[Christopher]

*Can ANYONE provide anything even approaching a motive for Deegan's behavior?!* I mean, first, as far as I know, we've never even *seen* this guy before for him to have a specific problem with Barry or Oliver, and then second, even if he does have some off-screen reason for that, why in the world would he have the power to rewrite the planet and have left them with their original personalities and memories?

He didn't have anything against the Flash and Green Arrow; on the contrary, he wanted to be the Flash. He tried to rewrite reality so that he became the Flash, and naturally he'd have wanted to retain his memories and personality so he'd be able to appreciate the change. And maybe some vindictive part of him wanted the Flash to retain his memory so he'd know what he'd lost. But he screwed up somehow and ended up swapping the Flash with the Green Arrow instead of himself.

I mentioned this before but if the Monitor was testing Earths to prepare them for the upcoming Crisis, why use a mad scientist who did not even know how to use the Book of Destiny? Why did the Monitor not just use the Book himself to do the test properly?

As I recall, what he said at the end of Part 2 was that the universe faced a Crisis that was similar to what the Book of Destiny could do -- a rewriting of reality itself. And that it was being caused by a powerful, malevolent being (i.e. the Anti-Monitor). So he wanted to see how the heroes of each world would react to a threat analogous to the one that's coming. Perhaps he chose Deegan as the catalyst because his psychology is analogous to the Anti-Monitor's in some way.

 

[Romulan_spy]

Perhaps he chose Deegan as the catalyst because his psychology is analogous to the Anti-Monitor's in some way.

Thanks. Yeah, that is my best theory as well.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Great finale, especially the tease for the next crossover.

Random thought, worlds colliding could be that Earth-1 and Earth-38 get combined since they already established that there was no Superman or Supergirl in Earth-1's universe. I don't want Barry to die though.

My prediction as well. But maybe they'll surprise us and it'll create a new multiverse...