Nero altered the timeline = altered the original Trek reality

[Cadet49]

I know many fans, including some of tie-in media and even some who worked on the 2009 film, have said in interviews and writing following the release of Star Trek 09 that Nero created an alternate universe that co-exists with the original Star Trek universe (I guess a bit like the Ultimate Marvel Universe co-existed with the original Marvel Universe), and that interpretation has merit, especially for the possibility of crossovers, but on viewing the film again after several years, I think the original intention of the film may have been to indicate that Nero's actions were altering reality, creating an altered reality, but one that was also actually overwriting some of the original reality.

Uhura says it is an alternate reality, and Spock says that Nero's actions altered the flow of history, and that their destinies have been changed. To me, this indicates reality has been altered, an altered reality, but Nero's actions are actually overwriting the original reality and history, which is why Spock says neither party can anticipate or predict the outcome of a future engagement - reality has been rewritten.

It makes more sense, dramatically, rather than the alternate universe idea that was the interpretation of "altered reality" soon after the film was released. When Nimoy's Spock sees Vulcan being destroyed, he is emotionally devastated (for a Vulcan) because he is seeing his homeworld destroyed - his actual homeworld, not an alternate universe version of his original world. When Nero is choking Kirk, he says he is going to end Kirk's place in history, which to me indicates that this is supposed to be the original Kirk, and that Nero's actions are in fact re-writing the original timeline. Yes, its odd that Nimoy's Spock seems to have memories of a timeline that has disappeared, unless the universe he came from still exists somewhere, but as we saw in Star Trek: with the Guardian of Forever and the Borg time vortex in Star Trek: First Contact, memories and individuals from an changed reality can remain unchanged it protected by a time distortion, as Spock and Nero may have been when they passed through the Red Matter Anomaly. They may be survivors of a reality that has been overwritten ... it could be interpreted both ways.

I think the original intent of the film was that Nero was altering the history and reality of the original Trek universe, and I think that gives the film more gravity in Star Trek lore, and is more consistent with Star Trek's other stories on time travel, as opposed to the "alternate universe" interpretation of Uhura's line, which has been argued and adopted by many fans and tie in fiction.

Both interpretations have merit, and I certainly agree that individual fans can interpret the altered reality line in the film however they wish, but I think the "re-written" history interpretation of the "altered reality" line gives more dramatic impact to what happens in the film.

Thoughts?

 

[Nerys Myk]

It's not open to interpretation. The people who made the film said its a branching timeline that co-exists with the original one. So that's what it is.

 

[Cadet49]

It's not open to interpretation. The people who made the film said its a branching timeline that co-exists with the original one. So that's what it is.

But, if I remember correctly, they only said that in interviews that were conducted a few days after the film was released. To me, the film, taken on its own, seems to indicate the historical reality, the timeline itself, has been altered by Nero's arrival, reshaping the original reality so that no players involved, including the original Spock, can correctly anticipate the outcomes. Nero tells the younger Spock that they don't know each other ... Not yet, indicating Quinto Spock is the younger version of original Spock.

I think the "altered reality" line was probably made to be vague in the film script, so that it could be interpreted multiple ways, depending on how audiences reacted to the story.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It's not open to interpretation. The people who made the film said its a branching timeline that co-exists with the original one. So that's what it is.

But, if I remember correctly, they only said that in interviews that were conducted a few days after the film was released. To me, the film, taken on its own, seems to indicate the historical reality, the timeline itself, has been altered by Nero's arrival, reshaping the original reality so that no players involved, including the original Spock, can correctly anticipate the outcomes. Nero tells the younger Spock that they don't know each other ... Not yet, indicating Quinto Spock is the younger version of original Spock.

I think the "altered reality" line was probably made to be vague in the film script, so that it could be interpreted multiple ways, depending on how audiences reacted to the story.

Nope. The writers were quite clear in their intent.

 

[Cadet49]

It's not open to interpretation. The people who made the film said its a branching timeline that co-exists with the original one. So that's what it is.

But, if I remember correctly, they only said that in interviews that were conducted a few days after the film was released. To me, the film, taken on its own, seems to indicate the historical reality, the timeline itself, has been altered by Nero's arrival, reshaping the original reality so that no players involved, including the original Spock, can correctly anticipate the outcomes. Nero tells the younger Spock that they don't know each other ... Not yet, indicating Quinto Spock is the younger version of original Spock.

I think the "altered reality" line was probably made to be vague in the film script, so that it could be interpreted multiple ways, depending on how audiences reacted to the story.

Nope. The writers were quite clear in their intent.

But When were the writers first quoted as saying it was in fact an "alternate universe"? Altered "reality" or alternate timeline doesn't necessarily mean alternate universe - that could have been reinterpreted in the later stages of the film post production, based on fan reactions. The first quote I found is from several days after the movie was released - could be reacting to fan reactions by saying altered reality means alternate universe?

 

[Nerys Myk]

But, if I remember correctly, they only said that in interviews that were conducted a few days after the film was released. To me, the film, taken on its own, seems to indicate the historical reality, the timeline itself, has been altered by Nero's arrival, reshaping the original reality so that no players involved, including the original Spock, can correctly anticipate the outcomes. Nero tells the younger Spock that they don't know each other ... Not yet, indicating Quinto Spock is the younger version of original Spock.

I think the "altered reality" line was probably made to be vague in the film script, so that it could be interpreted multiple ways, depending on how audiences reacted to the story.

Nope. The writers were quite clear in their intent.

But When were the writers first quoted as saying it was in fact an "alternate universe"? Altered "reality" or alternate timeline doesn't necessarily mean alternate universe - that could have been reinterpreted in the later stages of the film post production, based on fan reactions. The first quote I found is from several days after the movie was released - could be reacting to fan reactions by saying altered reality means alternate universe?

Doesn't matter. Plus its not like they are going to reveal major plot points before the movie was released

 

[M'Sharak]

I know many fans, including some of tie-in media and even some who worked on the 2009 film, have said in interviews and writing following the release of Star Trek 09 that Nero created an alternate universe that co-exists with the original Star Trek universe (I guess a bit like the Ultimate Marvel Universe co-existed with the original Marvel Universe), and that interpretation has merit, especially for the possibility of crossovers, but on viewing the film again after several years, I think the original intention of the film may have been to indicate that Nero's actions were altering reality, creating an altered reality, but one that was also actually overwriting some of the original reality.

Uhura says it is an alternate reality, and Spock says that Nero's actions altered the flow of history, and that their destinies have been changed. To me, this indicates reality has been altered, an altered reality, but Nero's actions are actually overwriting the original reality and history, which is why Spock says neither party can anticipate or predict the outcome of a future engagement - reality has been rewritten.

[...]

Both interpretations have merit, and I certainly agree that individual fans can interpret the altered reality line in the film however they wish, but I think the "re-written" history interpretation of the "altered reality" line gives more dramatic impact to what happens in the film.

Thoughts?

No. I don't think both interpretations do have merit.

The point of mentioning an "alternate reality" was that whatever advantage Nero might have had (by way of being from the "future" and thus to some degree familiar with historical events occurring between 2233 and 2389) was negated. His travel into the past (causing a temporal branching point, diverging from the "Prime") meant that he was no longer in the same reality/timeline to which those events belonged. He knew exactly as much about how things were going to play out in this reality as Spock or Uhura did: nothing at all.

That was the whole point of that scene: Nero's knowledge of history was useless to him. It's right in the dialogue.

SPOCK: ...we must gather with the rest of Starfleet, to balance the terms of the next engagement.
KIRK: There won't be a next engagement. By the time we've gathered, it'll be too late. But you say he's from the future, knows what's going to happen, then the logical thing is to be unpredictable.
SPOCK: You are assuming that Nero knows how events are predicted to unfold. To the contrary, Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party.
UHURA: An alternate reality?
SPOCK: Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have changed...

http://www.chakoteya.net/Extras/movie2009.html
(emphasis mine)
​

It has nothing to do with overwriting any original ("Prime") reality because—from the branching point of Nero's arrival in the "past" and the destruction of Kelvin onward—they're not in the "Prime" reality anymore; it has been left behind. The "Prime" is now separate and utterly out of reach, therefore not alterable or overwritable by the actions of anyone in the alternate reality.

 

[Cadet49]

I know many fans, including some of tie-in media and even some who worked on the 2009 film, have said in interviews and writing following the release of Star Trek 09 that Nero created an alternate universe that co-exists with the original Star Trek universe (I guess a bit like the Ultimate Marvel Universe co-existed with the original Marvel Universe), and that interpretation has merit, especially for the possibility of crossovers, but on viewing the film again after several years, I think the original intention of the film may have been to indicate that Nero's actions were altering reality, creating an altered reality, but one that was also actually overwriting some of the original reality.

Uhura says it is an alternate reality, and Spock says that Nero's actions altered the flow of history, and that their destinies have been changed. To me, this indicates reality has been altered, an altered reality, but Nero's actions are actually overwriting the original reality and history, which is why Spock says neither party can anticipate or predict the outcome of a future engagement - reality has been rewritten.

[...]

Both interpretations have merit, and I certainly agree that individual fans can interpret the altered reality line in the film however they wish, but I think the "re-written" history interpretation of the "altered reality" line gives more dramatic impact to what happens in the film.

Thoughts?

No. I don't think both interpretations do have merit.

The point of mentioning an "alternate reality" was that whatever advantage Nero might have had (by way of being from the "future" and thus to some degree familiar with historical events occurring between 2233 and 2389) was negated. His travel into the past (causing a temporal branching point, diverging from the "Prime") meant that he was no longer in the same reality/timeline to which those events belonged. He knew exactly as much about how things were going to play out in this reality as Spock or Uhura did: nothing at all.

That was the whole point of that scene: Nero's knowledge of history was useless to him. It's right in the dialogue.

SPOCK: ...we must gather with the rest of Starfleet, to balance the terms of the next engagement.
KIRK: There won't be a next engagement. By the time we've gathered, it'll be too late. But you say he's from the future, knows what's going to happen, then the logical thing is to be unpredictable.
SPOCK: You are assuming that Nero knows how events are predicted to unfold. To the contrary, Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party.
UHURA: An alternate reality?
SPOCK: Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have changed...

http://www.chakoteya.net/Extras/movie2009.html
(emphasis mine)
​

It has nothing to do with overwriting any original ("Prime") reality because—from the branching point of Nero's arrival in the "past" and the destruction of Kelvin onward—they're not in the "Prime" reality anymore; it has been left behind. The "Prime" is now separate and utterly out of reach, therefore not alterable or overwritable by the actions of anyone in the alternate reality.

But that in itself, is an interpretation of the dialogue from the original script - a "branching off" is never specifically indicated in the filmed script - those exact quotes you highlight, about Nero altering the flow of history, indicates that history has been changed, not that this is an entirely different universe, like the mirror universe. Spock says the time continuum was disrupted, indicating that time was interfered with, not that a new universe was created - as he says, their destinies have been changed. This indicates the original intent was to indicate the timeline had been altered, thus creating an "alternate reality", which replaced the original one. Their destinies are now unknown to both parties, because history is unfolding differently for Nero's entry point - he has reshaped history, and therefore cannot predict future events. That seems to indicate the original reality has been altered... Perhaps permanently...

In the cave, Nimoy's Spock think's it's so vital that Kirk get back to the Enterprise, because he is trying to repair at least some of the damage Nero has done to the timeline... Nero killing Kirk's dad has drastically altered Kirk's original life progress, and Spock is trying to get Kirk back where he belongs, on the Enterprise, to fix some of that damage. That why he almost smiles at the end of the movie, when Kirk and crew end up back on the Enterprise - at least some of their original "destiny" has come to pass, if in an altered way...

I just think there are indications within the plot itself that, for the purpose of dramatic power, the audience was initially supposed to feel history was being rewritten by Nero's actions - we were supposed to be shocked when Nero destroyed Vulcan, and when Spock's mom died, because history had been changed - these elements of the Star Trek we knew were gone, altering the original landscape. That's what gives it the emotional impact. If we had found out in Star Trek IV that the first three films had happened in an alternate universe, and that the Enterprise was actually safe and still around, then that would have reduced the impact of Kirk's destroying the ship in Search for Spock -the emotion comes from the fact that it is the same ship from the original series, and that its destruction is a game changer for our characters. The same is true about the destruction of Vulcan in Trek 09. I think the "alternate universe" idea was perhaps added in that scene (if you interpret the altered reality line that way) to support audience members who might not accept original Star Trek being "replaced", but I think the other areas of the plot indicate the original intent was to indicate Nero had changed history...

 

[Melakon]

If your theory is correct, the reason for the existence of this board and our being here is no longer valid. There will be no Jean-Luc Picard or anyone else. Events depicted in TOS will never happen.

 

[MacLeod]

Star Trek has already shown us various alternate timelines, but couldn't you argue now that they aware that a supernova will destroy Romulus in the future and have knowledge of how to create the Red Matter from Spock Prime they can prevent the destruction of Romulus which means that Nero will never travel back in time to destroy Vulcan.

I hate Temperol mechancis.

 

[Melakon]

Klingons learn of Red Matter, steal it, and use it to destroy homeworlds of their enemies.

 

[Khan 2.0]

ive always viewed JJ Trek as - for casual fans/non trekkies who seen the occasional ep and movie its a BTTF/Trek IV type timetravel reboot in which the original timeline is gone the JJ timeline has overwritten it. TOS onwards ceased to exist.. For fans/trekkies its the quantum mechanics multiverse thing. the original timeline still exists (last page of 'Countdown') and we are watching an alternate universe/reality

 

[Cadet49]

ive always viewed JJ Trek as - for casual fans/non trekkies who seen the occasional ep and movie its a BTTF/Trek IV type timetravel reboot in which the original timeline is gone the JJ timeline has overwritten it. TOS onwards ceased to exist.. For fans/trekkies its the quantum mechanics multiverse thing. the original timeline still exists (last page of 'Countdown') and we are watching an alternate universe/reality

Yeah - I agree. Thd average movie goer who went to that movie assumed a standard time travel story, where someone went back in time and changed history. They wouldn't have read Countdown, and tie-in media isn't "canon", so that final scene, with the Enterprise-E still existing, is just one interpretation of the events. Also, we don't know at the end of the comic that it isn't like Guardian of Forvever or Star Trek First Contact, where the Enterprise is temporarily protected from the timeline changes because of its close proximity to the temporal distortion (Kirk and his crew didn't experience the changes because they were near the Guardian, but if they had left the planet, they probably would have experienced the new reality, and all their memories and experiences would shift to match the lives they had lives in the altered timeline. In First Contact, the Enterprise crew were safe from the temporal changes (they saw Earth was now "borgified", but they didn't change , because Data said they were caught in a temporal wake), but if they had left that protective pocket, all of their memories would shift to match the lives they had lived in the altered, Borgified Earth future. It could be interpreted that the Enterprise-E at the end of Countdown just hasn't experienced the changes yet because of its close proximity to the temporal vortex Spock and Nero went through - soon, once the effect fully dissipates, they will experience time change, and their memories would shift to match the altered history they now lived through, with the changes Nero made in history having taken effect.

I think the "alternate reality line means alternate universe" idea was presented to appease some fans who didn't want the original storyline to be changed, but that the average viewer, who knows nothing about these "quantum mechanics theories" ideas was meant to assume Nero had gone back in time and changed a whole bunch of stuff, so now, Kirk and Spock were living different lives - like the joking tag line in one commercial said when the film came out - "this isn't your dad's Star Trek anymore!"

.

 

[Cadet49]

If your theory is correct, the reason for the existence of this board and our being here is no longer valid. There will be no Jean-Luc Picard or anyone else. Events depicted in TOS will never happen.

Huh? The original shows still exist on DVD etc, so of course they still exist in media form to discuss. I just think the original intent of the film was to indicate Nero was rewriting the original history,which would alter the history we saw in those series. They wanted to give Star Trek a fresh start for new fans, much in the same way Marvel is now having a major event where their two comic book realities, the original comic book universe, around since 1961, and their Ultimate Universe, around since 2000, collide and are destroyed, so that a new, streamlined reboot can emerge that isn't hindered by past story lines or assumptions about the characters. I think Star Trek did a similar thing with Nero - he altered Star Trek history, and Vulcan was destroyed to show the audience to expect the unexpected...

The original Spock was introduced to the story as a way of acknowledging that the original stories still happened, and continue to exist ... In original Spock's memories of where he came from - history before it was changed. Original Spock would probably still remember the events of Picard et al because he wasn't affected by the changes while trapped in the Red Matter vortex.

 

[TRON JA307020]

If your theory is correct, the reason for the existence of this board and our being here is no longer valid. There will be no Jean-Luc Picard or anyone else. Events depicted in TOS will never happen.

Huh? The original shows still exist on DVD etc, so of course they still exist in media form to discuss. I just think the original intent of the film was to indicate Nero was rewriting the original history,which would alter the history we saw in those series. They wanted to give Star Trek a fresh start for new fans, much in the same way Marvel is now having a major event where their two comic book realities, the original comic book universe, around since 1961, and their Ultimate Universe, around since 2000, collide and are destroyed, so that a new, streamlined reboot can emerge that isn't hindered by past story lines or assumptions about the characters. I think Star Trek did a similar thing with Nero - he altered Star Trek history, and Vulcan was destroyed to show the audience to expect the unexpected...

The original Spock was introduced to the story as a way of acknowledging that the original stories still happened, and continue to exist ... In original Spock's memories of where he came from - history before it was changed. Original Spock would probably still remember the events of Picard et al because he wasn't affected by the changes while trapped in the Red Matter vortex.

They probably should have had nero go to a existing alternate realities past to avoid confusion. Basically the red matter could have caused him to skip a reality and land in a different one which he could have changed. They didn't explain it that way but they clearly say its a alternate universe. The writers have already explained several times that the prime universe is still going on its merry way and still having their adventures. TOS happened and hasn't been wiped out. Sure they didn't plainly have a character look at the screen and say "Don't worry the prime universe is still there" but did you really need a person on screen to say that?

 

[Relayer1]

It's not open to interpretation. The people who made the film said its a branching timeline that co-exists with the original one. So that's what it is.

This is not open to debate or interpretation.

It is a work of fiction and those responsible for it clearly state that both continuities still exist.

End of.

 

[bbjeg]

It kinda has to be an alternate reality, Spock prime existed. While he was watching Vulcan implode, him and Nero should have vanished and ceased to exist. When NuSpock asked Prime Spock's ship it's manufacturing date, it said it was made on Vulcan in the future. If that future no long exists, how can Vulcan be destroyed by it?

 

[iguana_tonante]

It's kinda cute when people talk about this like there was some kind of "real" answer beyond what the producers said and what the public choose to believe.

 

[Timo]

Of course everything is open to interpretation - and those making Star Trek are probably the least authoritative to do the interpreting. After all, they're the smallest cogs in the wheel: they come and go, and then others with different ideas take over. Whatever the authors say about Trek gets scattered to the winds or trampled over by other authors unless they actually put it in their work.

That said, it's awfully difficult to see how any "overwriting" of history could take place in the Trek universe, where it is established (put into the work!) that every event branches off into potential other timelines all the time. But if no overwriting is possible, then the work of all those heroes who go back in time to repair it becomes rather futile. The Whale Probe destroys Earth? Okay, we went back and got these whales, so now there exists this timeline where Earth wasn't destroyed after all, but that doesn't much help Sarek who died on that other Earth. And if it doesn't, why bother with heroics? Surely there also exists a timeline where the Whale Probe spontaneously combusted and Earth was saved without any time-traveling hijinks. And if Kirk is unhappy about not living in that timeline, he can always go there - after all, that's what this time travel stuff is about, going back to a fork in the path and then forward again along a different path. The whales would be just ballast.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[-Brett-]

End of the day, it doesn't make much difference. Either we'll never see the prime continuity again because it's been erased, or we'll never see it again because it's been irredeemably tainted as a failure.

I say that if you prefer the erased interpretation, go for it.