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Native American Fantasy

Lapis Exilis

Rear Admiral
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Does anyone know of any fantasy (magical history) stories set in the ancient or early Americas or using Native American lore? I'm particularly interested in anything set in pre-Columbian times, but other historical periods or contemporary is fine too. The only thing I really know of is the Tales of Alvin Maker series, which touches on some Native American magic. Sadly that series had three great books and then crashed and burned...
 
I am writing a story that uses the old west as a background for a LOTR like fantasy. Its largely based on Native American myths and spaghetti westerns. I hope to turn this into a web comic. I have a belief that the old west was kind of our middle ages. So taking all the fantasy tropes and placing them into the old west should work very well.
 
My native american fantisy involves taking both the horse and small pox back and introducing them to the indian 5000 years before they were introduced by the white man... I understand that if the horse was introduced between 500 and 1000 years earlier then it was then the whites would have never kicked off native americans fromt heir lands.

taking the horse would mean that the culture would spread faster. and small pox so that by the time the whites got here... the native american would have recovered and developed some immunity.
 
That's pretty fascinating. I have always wondered what kind of culture would have grown if the native Americans retained their land. How different would the world have been?
 
There are several alternate history stories that have the Native Americans surviving - often the Aztec empire, such as in Aztec Century by Christopher Evans. I was just reading a space adventure, Wasteland of Flint, set in an alternate future in which the Aztecs and the Japanese were the dominant powers.
 
I hope I dont get a hold of the tardus or some scientist doesn't give me the ability to do that, because I probably would....
and it would be the native american's... think about it... our government is based on a indian form of government. they were close to having a the written language... they had a language recognized from east to west coast... the sign language... given the horse a lot earlier then it was introduced... the whites would have never kicked the indian's off their lands...
 
A couple that come to mind, but they deal with South America during the time of the Spanish conquistadors.

Mask of the Sun - Fred Saberhagen
PastWatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus - Orson Scott Card

Both are excellent reads.
 
Wasteland of Flint is good.

The Gate of Worlds by R Silverberg postulates a world where the Black Death wipes 3/4 of Europe's population, leaving the Aztecs to develop steam engines..

Richard C Meredith's Vestiges of Time, pt 3 of a trilogy, tackles an advanced society built on an Indian heritage

Clarke County, Space by Allen Steele is all about a Navajo sheriff who has his own hogan on board a space station and is investigating strange goings on there.

Merlin's Ring and Merlin's Godson deal heavily with the idea that Romano-Brits of Arthur's time come to the New World in the 800-1200 ad era. Merlin's Ring, especially, deals with the Mississippi Mound Builders civilization...
 
I hope I dont get a hold of the tardus or some scientist doesn't give me the ability to do that, because I probably would....
and it would be the native american's... think about it... our government is based on a indian form of government. they were close to having a the written language... they had a language recognized from east to west coast... the sign language... given the horse a lot earlier then it was introduced... the whites would have never kicked the indian's off their lands...

Would it be cultural genocide to put up a forcefield across the Bering Land Bridge 30,000 years ago and prevent the migrations of the Native American's ancestors from Asia? They would have had to double back into Asia and what would have heppened then????

What about where someone uses a machine to move the all of the Native Americans to an Earth where Humans Died out in the Toba Extinction event by swapping out the whole North and South America land masses from one reality with another so that the Europeans arrive to an empty continent filled with Giant Sloths, Mammoths and Terror Birds. While at the same time the Native American eventually reach Europe or Asia to find it empty and filled with large no longer extinct beasts, where they find and domesticate the horse and go on to rule the (well one of them) world.

Here is a another weird idea, how about where the Neadertals of Europe kicked out the early Homo Sapiens but the H. Sapeins ancestors of the American Indians made it to america with no changes. So the Native Americans eventually go on discover Europe filled with Savage Neadertals, and history inverses itself with the Native Americans driving out the Neadertals from Europe.....

Just some musings on history and human evolutionary history etc....
 
Merlin's Ring, especially, deals with the Mississippi Mound Builders civilization...
I found the topic of the Mound Builders civilizations extremely fascinating. Our understand of Native American societies and cultures is woefully partial, and the common knowledge about that almost non-existent.
 
How did this thread end up being all about alternate histories? I thought the original poster was asking about fantasy fiction based in Native American mythology.

One tenuous example might be the Gargoyles animated series, whose assortment of supernatural beings included Coyote the trickster. Perhaps searching for terms like "Coyote" and "Raven" along with "fantasy fiction" or the like might point in the right direction.
 
Mistral - you are a veritable encyclopedia of SFF! Thanks, the Merlin stories sound quite intriguing.

I hope I dont get a hold of the tardus or some scientist doesn't give me the ability to do that, because I probably would....
and it would be the native american's... think about it... our government is based on a indian form of government. they were close to having a the written language... they had a language recognized from east to west coast... the sign language... given the horse a lot earlier then it was introduced... the whites would have never kicked the indian's off their lands...

Would it be cultural genocide to put up a forcefield across the Bering Land Bridge 30,000 years ago and prevent the migrations of the Native American's ancestors from Asia? They would have had to double back into Asia and what would have heppened then????

American archeology is kind of a hobby of mine, and some current theories, while still debatable, believe that settlement of the Americas happened in at least three waves - one over the Bering land bridge, and two by sea - Asians following the coastline from Siberia, along the Aleutians and then down the west coast of the Americas. This would explain how the migration from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego happened as quickly as it did (too quickly, it seems, for mere expansion of population across the continents) as well as uncanny similarities in decoration between potteries in Mexico and Japan during prehistoric times.

So just blocking the land bridge probably wouldn't work at all. Interesting thought though.

How did this thread end up being all about alternate histories? I thought the original poster was asking about fantasy fiction based in Native American mythology.

One tenuous example might be the Gargoyles animated series, whose assortment of supernatural beings included Coyote the trickster. Perhaps searching for terms like "Coyote" and "Raven" along with "fantasy fiction" or the like might point in the right direction.

I've done searches now in about 16 different permutations and have turned up very little. There's one well-regarded tale about a bear who wakes up as a twelve year old girl because her mother was human and her father a bear-god, which is set in the Pacific Northwest, writen by an anthropologist. This is along the lines of what I'm thinking of, though it sounds fairly intimate in scale. But mostly all I've found related to Native American fantasy, is the Magical Native American trope.

There are several AU stories, as noted above. But what I'm really looking for is, say, a kind of Lord of the Rings of the Americas. That is, the way LotR was an effort to create a native mythological epic for England based on the Norse sagas, I'm wondering about a native mythological epic based on the particular mythological inflections of the Americas. I mean, it's pretty good material. We're working with several Aztec objects right now, all of which are highly sacred objects from the Templo Mayor in Tenochtitlan and the mythology attached to them is marvelous. I'm rather fascinated by the idea of lost history. Since I've started working with the ancient world in my current job, I've become very aware of how little we actually know about the ancient world. Scholars estimate we know only 5% of all there is to know about the Romans - about the Romans who we know scads and scads about! Meaning the imaginative possiblities of what we don't know about the Americas (of which we probably know 0.25% or less of what there is to know) are pretty stunning.

On top of that, I'm bored beyond belief with fantasy set in Medieval European ideas and spawned of LotR, and really, really bored with contemporary urban fantasy with vampires, werewolves and faeries. Really - is this all we've got?
 
I hope I dont get a hold of the tardus or some scientist doesn't give me the ability to do that, because I probably would....
and it would be the native american's... think about it... our government is based on a indian form of government. they were close to having a the written language... they had a language recognized from east to west coast... the sign language... given the horse a lot earlier then it was introduced... the whites would have never kicked the indian's off their lands...

Would it be cultural genocide to put up a forcefield across the Bering Land Bridge 30,000 years ago and prevent the migrations of the Native American's ancestors from Asia? They would have had to double back into Asia and what would have heppened then????

What about where someone uses a machine to move the all of the Native Americans to an Earth where Humans Died out in the Toba Extinction event by swapping out the whole North and South America land masses from one reality with another so that the Europeans arrive to an empty continent filled with Giant Sloths, Mammoths and Terror Birds. While at the same time the Native American eventually reach Europe or Asia to find it empty and filled with large no longer extinct beasts, where they find and domesticate the horse and go on to rule the (well one of them) world.

Here is a another weird idea, how about where the Neadertals of Europe kicked out the early Homo Sapiens but the H. Sapeins ancestors of the American Indians made it to america with no changes. So the Native Americans eventually go on discover Europe filled with Savage Neadertals, and history inverses itself with the Native Americans driving out the Neadertals from Europe.....

Just some musings on history and human evolutionary history etc....

Try A Different Flesh by Harry Turtledove :) or Robert Sawyer's Hominid trilogy.


And I forgot a non-alt-history Indian scifi story. Charles DeLint-Svaha. A near future where non-Native Americans are choking on their own pollution and Indians have eco-friendly, domed habitats. As I recall, it touches quite a bit of Native American mythology.
 
Not particularly helpful, but for completion's sake: the Shadowrun setting incorporates a great deal of Native American mythos into its cyberpunk/fantasy mix, with large parts of North America back under the control of local tribes, and it has spawned a series of novels. Having never read them, however, I couldn't say which deal with the Native American nations or characters inspired by their magical tradition at any length.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
But what I'm really looking for is, say, a kind of Lord of the Rings of the Americas. That is, the way LotR was an effort to create a native mythological epic for England based on the Norse sagas, I'm wondering about a native mythological epic based on the particular mythological inflections of the Americas. I mean, it's pretty good material. We're working with several Aztec objects right now, all of which are highly sacred objects from the Templo Mayor in Tenochtitlan and the mythology attached to them is marvelous. I'm rather fascinated by the idea of lost history. Since I've started working with the ancient world in my current job, I've become very aware of how little we actually know about the ancient world. Scholars estimate we know only 5% of all there is to know about the Romans - about the Romans who we know scads and scads about! Meaning the imaginative possiblities of what we don't know about the Americas (of which we probably know 0.25% or less of what there is to know) are pretty stunning.

On top of that, I'm bored beyond belief with fantasy set in Medieval European ideas and spawned of LotR, and really, really bored with contemporary urban fantasy with vampires, werewolves and faeries. Really - is this all we've got?


Wow. What you wrote describes exactly what I've been going through for the past years. I'm sick of Medieval European fantasy. And what I wouldn't give for an aztec "Lord of the Rings". But alas... nothing. The only way to have one is to do it oneself.

It's going to be hard to have this breakthrough. Too many people dream in white people alone.

What I mean is that europeanity has dominated fantasy and all other genres related with fairy tales so long that it will be hard to make them dream in other ways. A guy in Japan, Brazil and Sweden all dream of slutty elven maidens in sexy bikini chainmail armor and of knights and dragons. There are too many white people in our fairy world. Like what happened with Last Airbender... finally a good fantasy with people of colour and then they make a film version of it with white kids. Sucks.

Edit: and it seems I had a freudian slip since I subconsciously wrote Aztec with a small letter and european with a capital letter. I suck.
 
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Like what happened with Last Airbender... finally a good fantasy with people of colour and then they make a film version of it with white kids. Sucks.

Well, to be fair, it's now been explained that the casting is as multiethnic as they could practically make it -- the Water Tribe is European, but the Air Nomads are multiethnic, the Earth Kingdom is East Asian and African, and the Fire Nation is South/Southwest Asian. They cast the best actors they could find for the lead roles without regard for ethnicity and then used their ethnicities as the basis for their respective nations. And the cultural influences behind the story are still predominantly Asian even if three of the lead actors aren't.

Film casting limitations aside, Avatar: The Last Airbender is a great example of a non-European-based fantasy world, and I agree it's something we need more of. A fantasy epic based on Native American culture and mythology would be great to see.
 
Like what happened with Last Airbender... finally a good fantasy with people of colour and then they make a film version of it with white kids. Sucks.

Well, to be fair, it's now been explained that the casting is as multiethnic as they could practically make it -- the Water Tribe is European, but the Air Nomads are multiethnic, the Earth Kingdom is East Asian and African, and the Fire Nation is South/Southwest Asian. They cast the best actors they could find for the lead roles without regard for ethnicity and then used their ethnicities as the basis for their respective nations. And the cultural influences behind the story are still predominantly Asian even if three of the lead actors aren't.

Film casting limitations aside, Avatar: The Last Airbender is a great example of a non-European-based fantasy world, and I agree it's something we need more of. A fantasy epic based on Native American culture and mythology would be great to see.

Say, Christopher, didn't I hear somewhere that you were a writer? Hint, hint...;)
 
Wow. What you wrote describes exactly what I've been going through for the past years. I'm sick of Medieval European fantasy. And what I wouldn't give for an aztec "Lord of the Rings". But alas... nothing. The only way to have one is to do it oneself.

So I'm beginning to think - however, "fantasy" is definitely the only way to describe the idea of doing it myself. I love to think about writing projects, research writing projects, talk about writing projects, even begin writing projects. I just never seem to finish them...

To wit - I'm thinking earlier and bigger than the Aztecs, who, granted, are fascinating, but don't seem to me to be a big enough canvas for a LotR style novel which should be set in a completely lost age with only the trappings of an actual era. As LotR uses horses, swords, mail and kingdoms from Medieval times, but creates fantasy races and magical creatures to populate the world, such a Native American tale would probably include tribes, mounds and pyramids, canoes and animal spirits - but also include fantasy creatures and empires.

Like what happened with Last Airbender... finally a good fantasy with people of colour and then they make a film version of it with white kids. Sucks.

Well, to be fair, it's now been explained that the casting is as multiethnic as they could practically make it -- the Water Tribe is European, but the Air Nomads are multiethnic, the Earth Kingdom is East Asian and African, and the Fire Nation is South/Southwest Asian. They cast the best actors they could find for the lead roles without regard for ethnicity and then used their ethnicities as the basis for their respective nations. And the cultural influences behind the story are still predominantly Asian even if three of the lead actors aren't.

Film casting limitations aside, Avatar: The Last Airbender is a great example of a non-European-based fantasy world, and I agree it's something we need more of. A fantasy epic based on Native American culture and mythology would be great to see.

A fair amount of Japanese/ Asian fantasy material has made its way into the global consciousness - though it can't hurt that the Samurai sensibilities of a lot of it match well with Medieval European fantasy, as does the general martial arts conception of magic. Still, there's folks like Miyazaki doing what feels like very out there fantasy stuff. This is one of the reasons I so enjoyed the Night Watch/ Day Watch movies - they felt like fairly original fantasy worlds, being primarily based in middle Asian mythology. It was also what was refreshing about a lot of the early contemporary fantasy such as Sandman which moved freely among mythological traditions of the world and mixed it with the modern urban experience. Harry Potter was original in its way, though its so thematically light that it's hard to take it seriously. This is probably a lot of the reason the His Dark Materials trilogy is so well-regarded - at least it's concepts are original and not easily classed, though it and HP are very, very British/ European.
 
Wow. What you wrote describes exactly what I've been going through for the past years. I'm sick of Medieval European fantasy. And what I wouldn't give for an aztec "Lord of the Rings". But alas... nothing. The only way to have one is to do it oneself.

There's probably more of it out there than one might think--but being more recent, hasn't had time to percolate into the public consciousness to the extent that European fantasy has (which is, after all, what most people in the western world will grow up with, so makes an obvious template); and probably will never have quite the same amount of market penetration for the same reason. But doing it oneself is always a good method. I'm not a big fantasy guy, but the two fantasy stories I have published have looked elsewhere for cultural inspiration: one loosely based in Uttar Pradesh (northern India/Hamalayas), another somewhat more explicitly rooted in the cultures of Tatar mythology and Central Asia Tengriism. (Some unfortunately less successful stories languishing on my hard drive derive from Incan and Yoruba cultural contexts.) Nothing against European mythology--I adore Lord of the Rings--but it's been so overused that it could stand to lie fallow for a while to renew itself.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
Say, Christopher, didn't I hear somewhere that you were a writer? Hint, hint...;)

Yeah, but fantasy isn't really my genre, I'm afraid. Though I have dabbled a bit.


As LotR uses horses, swords, mail and kingdoms from Medieval times, but creates fantasy races and magical creatures to populate the world, such a Native American tale would probably include tribes, mounds and pyramids, canoes and animal spirits - but also include fantasy creatures and empires.

Well, not tribes per se, if it were accurate. "Tribe," as in a sociopolitical unit defined by shared descent from a common ancestor, is a Western concept that was erroneously applied to Native American populations by European settlers who believed the Indians were a lost Tribe of Israel. Over time, Native American populations had to accept the definition of themselves as belonging to tribes because that's how US law defined them and they had to go along with it in order to make treaties and get territorial and other rights. But pre-contact American populations weren't generally tribal. For instance, Algonquian and Mississippian populations tended to be organized in villages or bands, and you could be adopted as a full member of the community regardless of your ancestry or birth.

And there were certainly plenty of empires in Mesoamerica and South America, and some widespread civilizations and trading communities in North America, so that wouldn't have to be entirely fictionalized. Maybe the quest narrative could be something along the lines of a member of a small migratory Algonquian community traveling to a place like Cahokia and eventually joining a quest south to a great Mesoamerican kingdom, sort of like how the hobbits in LOTR travel from the Shire toward more central, more powerful civilizations.
 
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