Natalie Portman in "Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones"
- Thread starter Noddy
- Start date
Yeah, I'm not getting the "why didn't they just kill him" thing. Even during the decline of the Jedi Order and the Republic when emergency measures had to be instituted and the Jedi were forced to serve as field Generals for clone units it wasn't the Jedi way to just indiscriminately kill (Anakin's and Dooku's crimes aside because of special Dark Side circumstances), and Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan weren't about to slice Watto into blue-green Toydarian Bits to obtain the replacement parts for the Queen's ship.
The Jedi were a lot of things, but random killers out of mere convenience wasn't one of them.
The Jedi were a lot of things, but random killers out of mere convenience wasn't one of them.
I'll argue that.
Jedi are the force's bitches.
They get into horrible situations, then ask (pray) for their motor skills to be controlled by an alpowerful quasireligious cosmic radiation, field no matter what the literally bloody consequences are.
Case in point, Obiwan cut some guys arm off because Luke was about to be raped in the Mos Eisley Cantina bathroom.
Giving in to the Force means that they give in to the fate that they might at any point commit whole sale murder on a massive scale and they have no say in the matter.
It makes you wonder if that's what it means to be Sith, saying "no" to the Force, demanding to be a person who makes their own choices and not some trite apologist stooge.
Jedi are the force's bitches.
They get into horrible situations, then ask (pray) for their motor skills to be controlled by an alpowerful quasireligious cosmic radiation, field no matter what the literally bloody consequences are.
Case in point, Obiwan cut some guys arm off because Luke was about to be raped in the Mos Eisley Cantina bathroom.
Giving in to the Force means that they give in to the fate that they might at any point commit whole sale murder on a massive scale and they have no say in the matter.
It makes you wonder if that's what it means to be Sith, saying "no" to the Force, demanding to be a person who makes their own choices and not some trite apologist stooge.
All those admirals that Vader choked?
Could you be suggesting that that wasn't Annie, but the Universe working through him?
Could you be suggesting that that wasn't Annie, but the Universe working through him?
Dooku struck me at times as a Sith Lord whose heart wasn't entirely in it. The Jedi Council described him as a political idealist more than anything else, and even though his turn to the Dark Side was undeniable it didn't seem to "take" to the extent that it completely overwhelmed those like Sidious, Maul and even Vader. If any of the Sith seen in the movies was an instrument of the Dark Side rather than a personification of malevolence it might have been Dooku/Tyranus.
I really liked the characterization of Dooku in the Clone Wars novel Dark Rendezvous. A man who had not quite gotten what he'd bargained for, but too proud to even admit it to himself.
Pride and an elitist sense that he was the one gifted with vision and destined to help save the galaxy from its own corruption were major components of his downfall. He did witness the deterioration of the Republic firsthand and didn't trust Darth Sidious after his conversion but still felt it was his destiny to restore order and justice to the galaxy, either as the Master or the Apprentice. Who else could do it? Who else had the connections with the Separatists to pull it off? The Dark Side was a tool to him more than anything else, a tool to achieve his political goals.
He was also the only Sith Lord in the films to date who was never shown with yellow "Sith eyes" denoting his body being overwhelmed by the flowing energy of the Dark Side, even in the heat of battle. It may mean nothing, it could mean a lot. In the end he used the Dark Side as a means to an end just like Sidious/Palpatine used him in a similar manner.
He was also the only Sith Lord in the films to date who was never shown with yellow "Sith eyes" denoting his body being overwhelmed by the flowing energy of the Dark Side, even in the heat of battle. It may mean nothing, it could mean a lot. In the end he used the Dark Side as a means to an end just like Sidious/Palpatine used him in a similar manner.
Dooku knew that Palpatine was Sideous.
There was no political idealism, Dooku knew that his boss was the chief in charge of both sides of the war, and that the separatists were going to get driven off a cliff to turn the Republic into the Empire... Or did he?
What does "Lord" actually do for Vader or Count do for Dooku if a political appointee like grand Moff Tarkin has more muscle than the Emperor's apparent heir apparent? Is there a Royalty that covers the entire Empire, or is it the lording over a single planet?
Please don't tell me that Vader was a democratically elected Lord like Padmee was a democratically elected princess... Was Leia a democratically elected princess?
Obvious political positions would be different between the Republic and the Empire, but after having barely won an election to govern a planet, suddenly your job is not only for life, but your children get it when you're bored and want to retire?
There was no political idealism, Dooku knew that his boss was the chief in charge of both sides of the war, and that the separatists were going to get driven off a cliff to turn the Republic into the Empire... Or did he?
What does "Lord" actually do for Vader or Count do for Dooku if a political appointee like grand Moff Tarkin has more muscle than the Emperor's apparent heir apparent? Is there a Royalty that covers the entire Empire, or is it the lording over a single planet?
Please don't tell me that Vader was a democratically elected Lord like Padmee was a democratically elected princess... Was Leia a democratically elected princess?
Obvious political positions would be different between the Republic and the Empire, but after having barely won an election to govern a planet, suddenly your job is not only for life, but your children get it when you're bored and want to retire?
Oh, for sure, he certainly knew that Supreme Chancellor Palpatine of the Republic and Darth Sidious were one and the same person. His betrayed facial expression mere moments before Anakin follows the Chancellor's orders to kill him demonstrates that he knew that he'd been screwed over by his Master and disposed of, and the fact that it happened right in front of his Master probably added to the sting of knowing he was about to die.
I've been a little surprised over time that so many people believed that Dooku wasn't aware of Palpatine's alter ego given that it would be almost impossible to spend time around Darth Sidious and not notice his identical physical appearance, voice and other factors. Dooku was a hundred things, many of them flawed and idealistic, but a complete and blind idiot he wasn't.
I've been a little surprised over time that so many people believed that Dooku wasn't aware of Palpatine's alter ego given that it would be almost impossible to spend time around Darth Sidious and not notice his identical physical appearance, voice and other factors. Dooku was a hundred things, many of them flawed and idealistic, but a complete and blind idiot he wasn't.
When the toys came out, for Phantom Menace, the competition on the packaging was "Who is Darth Sideous!?".
These movies were made for 7 year olds who would look up to the 10 year old playing Anikan as a larger that life mythic ideal they would admire forever.
Luke is 16?
Luke is 19.
Punk Kid.
I don't want 19 year old to drive, god forbid save the galaxy.
These movies were made for 7 year olds who would look up to the 10 year old playing Anikan as a larger that life mythic ideal they would admire forever.
Luke is 16?
Luke is 19.
Punk Kid.
I don't want 19 year old to drive, god forbid save the galaxy.
There was a place in TCW where his eyes looked kinda yellow iirc, but I don't know if that was intentional.
Yeah I was very disappointed they dropped the notion that Dooku wasn't entirely evil and was planning to betray Sidious in the name of the Jedi. He told that to Obi-Wan in AOTC and the excellent novel "Dark Rendezvous" continued that idea, but then it was quickly dropped from all other media and he was just evil.
This post both intrigued me and made me profoundly dizzy. Anybody else taste copper?
You the man, Guy.
Dooku is "count" on the planet Serenno. He couldn't inherit when he joined the Jedi Order, but when he left, he went back home and scooped up the old title (and the attached wealth).
Mr Light said:
I don't think Dooku was ever really planning to betray Sidious, and certainly not in the name of the Jedi; at best, he was playing the Sith rule-of-two game and trying to get Obi-Wan to join with him against the master, but I'm not even sure I would go that far.
When I first saw the scene between Dooku and Obi-Wan it seemed like a deliberate imitation of the Vader-Luke scene on Cloud City where Vader offers his son the power to co-rule the galaxy at his side, although in the case of Vader I could have seen that happen had Luke fallen to the Dark Side under his father's captivity and influence. Vader knew that two Skywalkers joining their immense powers could possibly overthrow the Emperor and it wasn't just some complete fantasy created out of thin air to sway Luke to his side.
If Dooku at any point thought he could topple Sidious and become the new Sith Master I still have trouble believing that he thought Obi-Wan Kenobi would convert and become his apprentice. Obi-Wan was stubborn, headstrong and reckless but a prime candidate for slipping to the Dark Side thanks to some flowery words he wasn't.
If Dooku at any point thought he could topple Sidious and become the new Sith Master I still have trouble believing that he thought Obi-Wan Kenobi would convert and become his apprentice. Obi-Wan was stubborn, headstrong and reckless but a prime candidate for slipping to the Dark Side thanks to some flowery words he wasn't.
I think Dooku was entirely disillusioned with the Jedi and, while I can see him eventually betraying Palpatine ... it would certainly not be in the name of the Jedi - but rather his own idealized notion of right and wrong. This, to me, is the most compelling element to his character. He and Qui-Gon are not so different, after all (and, by extension, Obi-Wan and Anakin). It's just that Dooku (and Anakin) are more willing to let the ends justify their means, whereas Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are more concerned with how they accomplish their goals.
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