Mr. vs Ms.

[nonbelligerency]

I always thought it sounded bizarre when females were addressed as Mister in Star Trek.

I did my time in the Army, and we only called male warrant officers Mister. Female warrants were Ma'am or Chief. Assuming something was different in the Navy, I looked it up:

In the United States Military, Warrant Officers and Chief Warrant Officers are addressed as Mister. In the United States Navy and United States Coast Guard it is proper to use Mister to refer to commissioned officers below the rank of commander, though the use of Mister implies familiarity compared to the use of rank title for an unknown officer.

I would have thought in the time of TOS/TOS movies (and beyond), life would have evolved to the point of calling women Ma'am or Miss. (I'm watching The Wrath of Kahn right now, so there may be differing examples out there I am unaware of.

Actually, now that I think about it, in Star Trek VI, Lt. Valeris overheard some crewmen talking about Klingons and asked them if they had work, to which they replied, "Yes, ma'am." So it may not be a consistent application of regulations.

 

[Melakon]

When addressing a superior officer, it might depend on said officer's preference.

 

[Taelon]

Maybe it doesn't apply if they're not Human females?

 

[Dude111]

When addressing a superior officer, it might depend on said officer's preference.

Ya could be....

 

[T'Girl]

In the US Coast Guard, female officers are referred to as mister.

I can't immediately remember another female officer being referred to as mister, just Saavik. So perhaps she was a special case? At some point she resisted being call either ms or miss and so Kirk said "fine, Mister Saavik." And the title stuck.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Perhaps Saavik was male. Just throwing it out there for consideration.

 

[J.T.B.]

It used to be US Navy practice to call officers below commander "Mister," "Mrs." or "Miss," which was reflected in TOS. That was changed in the early '70s, so everyone was supposed to be addressed by rank. But it was still common -- in fact, I would stay standard -- in my time, 1988-1992, to address male officers as "Mister." But there were still a lot of senior people in the service who had entered in the '60s, so it may have died out by now.

My guess is that TOS had established phrases like "Mister Spock" so firmly that they didn't want to change, but something about "Ms. Saavik" didn't sound right to someone so they went with "Mister" as if had become a neutral term by that time.

When addressing a superior officer, it might depend on said officer's preference.

Yeah, but if there's a superior officer you don't know, by the time you have addressed them the "wrong" way, it's too late. There should be standards that are the same for everyone.

 

[Timo]

life would have evolved to the point of calling women Ma'am or Miss

Hmm... Sexual segregation is evolution? (That is, evolution in the sense of things getting better?)

Evolution in the more neutral sense might rather see the streamlining of titles, and indeed Janeway seems to be describing Starfleet's evolution of forms of address when preferring Captain over Sir/Ma'am, and Ma'am over Sir, whist stating that Sir is actually correct (if outdated?) protocol and implying that Ma'am is not.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

Perhaps Saavik was male. Just throwing it out there for consideration.

I'm now visualizing the pon farr scene in TSFS.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Perhaps Saavik was male. Just throwing it out there for consideration.

I'm now visualizing the pon farr scene in TSFS.

Would've made for a far more interesting triangle with David

Saavik is the only female character I remember being addressed as "Mr", Torres once got a "Ms" but more often they are referred to by rank or name.

 

[urbandefault]

Didn't Janeway once tell someone not to call her "sir"? "Captain or ma'am will do" or something like that.

I didn't watch a lot of Voyager, but I think I remember that.

 

[trekshark]

Didn't Janeway once tell someone not to call her "sir"? "Captain or ma'am will do" or something like that.

I didn't watch a lot of Voyager, but I think I remember that.

I think Harry in the pilot

 

[nightwind1]

In the US Coast Guard, female officers are referred to as mister.

I can't immediately remember another female officer being referred to as mister, just Saavik. So perhaps she was a special case? At some point she resisted being call either ms or miss and so Kirk said "fine, Mister Saavik." And the title stuck.

Are you an ex-Coastie? Because I don't remember that was the case when I was in ('88-'93).

I could be wrong, though. I didn't run across too many female officers.



Gary Miles
former SS3, USCGC Sundew (WLB-404)

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Didn't Janeway once tell someone not to call her "sir"? "Captain or ma'am will do" or something like that.

I didn't watch a lot of Voyager, but I think I remember that.

I think Harry in the pilot

Yes:

JANEWAY: Gentlemen, welcome aboard Voyager.
KIM: Thank you, sir.
JANEWAY: Mister Kim, at ease before you sprain something. Ensign, despite Starfleet protocol, I don't like being addressed as sir.
KIM: I'm sorry, ma'am.
JANEWAY: Ma'am is acceptable in a crunch, but I prefer Captain. We're getting ready to leave. Let me show you to the bridge.

 

[Lexx Shrapnel]

JANEWAY: Gentlemen, welcome aboard Voyager.
KIM: Thank you, sir.
JANEWAY: Sissy Kim, at ease before you sprain something. Ensign, despite Starfleet protocol, I don't like being addressed as sir.
KIM: I'm sorry, ma'am.
JANEWAY: Ma'am is acceptable in a crunch, but I prefer Captain. We're getting ready to leave. Let me show you to the bridge.

Fixed.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It does seem odd that gender-specific terms like "Sir" and "Mister" would be used to refer to any officer - I mean, I can see Starfleet wanting to be neutral, but why use male-only terms to do so? Surely it would be easier to, for example, use ONLY rank when referring to somebody. Rank titles are much more neutral than any of these. Right?

 

[Joel_Kirk]

It does seem odd that gender-specific terms like "Sir" and "Mister" would be used to refer to any officer - I mean, I can see Starfleet wanting to be neutral, but why use male-only terms to do so? Surely it would be easier to, for example, use ONLY rank when referring to somebody. Rank titles are much more neutral than any of these. Right?

This.

Especially, if there was a transsexual commander or officer.

 

[Therin of Andor]

It does seem odd that gender-specific terms like "Sir" and "Mister" would be used to refer to any officer - I mean, I can see Starfleet wanting to be neutral, but why use male-only terms to do so? Surely it would be easier to, for example, use ONLY rank when referring to somebody. Rank titles are much more neutral than any of these. Right?

Each production reflects the situation of the day. Spock said, "Miss Uhura" in TOS.

ST II, with "Mr Saavik", came at a time when the term "Ms" had achieved great popularity, so this was the script stretching the known 20th century situation.

I met a fan yesterday who said she thought Saavik was male(?) because she was a "Mr" in the movie. (Poor Kirstie Alley.)

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I met a fan yesterday who said she thought Saavik was male(?) because she was a "Mr" in the movie. (Poor Kirstie Alley.)

Methinks this fan was not terribly observant. Kirstie Alley circa 1982 was most assuredly NOT male.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I met a fan yesterday who said she thought Saavik was male(?) because she was a "Mr" in the movie. (Poor Kirstie Alley.)

Methinks this fan was not terribly observant. Kirstie Alley circa 1982 was most assuredly NOT male.

I know. Someone recently said something like this on TrekBBS, and I laughed it off, but last night I actually heard an old Trek acquaintance saying it. Based solely on her confusion of the term "Mister", she referred to Saavik as "that alien who didn't seem to have a clearly defined gender". ????