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moriarty

topcat

Lieutenant Commander
Red Shirt
Heres the thing. Just watched ship in a bottle again today and saw parts id forgotten about. well all of us had forgotten about.

In the relics thread, we all seem to forget that moriarty was not let loose upon the universe, but tricked into THINKING he had been given a shuttle craft. but left stuck in a removable data module that was then put into a portable memory system that Barclay tucked under his bed.

That raises the question, did the data module survive generations?

Did the moriarty program realize it had been suckered by picard?
 
That raises the question, did the data module survive generations?

Did the moriarty program realize it had been suckered by picard?

1. Yes, because unlike the Kurlan Naiskos, it had not been given to Picard for safekeeping.

2. Actually, the crew had been suckered by the Clues aliens into believing they were still freely roaming the universe. Everything that happened after that was a simulation in an alien X Box.

All things aside, the Moriarty sim was not necessarily sentient, but a simulation of sentience mimicked by sentient beings. Incapable of perceiving simulated stimulation. You don't need nearly as much processing power to simulate behavior than to generate it (which we don't fully understand and neither did Federation psychology).

Question is, what if that's true for us?

Personally I am not convinced that Data is sentient. As long as the possibility exists that he is merely running programs, I'm in no hurry to personify him. (Even if he had big cute anime eyes, furry skin and other cutesy crap that only draw attention to the designer, not the being itself. Why I discount "cute" robots - it's so contrived, such a marketing affectation. And infantile, but hey....).

(Sigh. I guess this is also why I hate webpreneurs talking about their "passion". Stop trying to get me to marry your product, mkay? It's a tool like you and your parent corporation).
 
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The only reason Picard wouldn't drop that XBox off at a Starbase to be reverse engineered into the next generation of holographic slaves, is if Picard believed that Moriarty was a person with rights.
 
left stuck in a removable data module that was then put into a portable memory system
It would be easy to imagine Barkley forgetting to change the batteries in the moriarty play station.

Moriarty and Countess Slut Bunny are long gone.

+
 
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Said it before and I'll say it again. If Picard came across a planet of sentient trees, he would have sent word to Starfleet, the Federation, he would have made a ridiculous song and dance about it.

With Moriarty, he essentially says... meh.

Despite his rhetoric, he clearly does not believe that this thing is truly sentient and treats it like it's nothing more than a computer malfunction writ large. And what's more, he's right.

The computer accidentally creates self-aware holograms on an almost weekly fucking basis. There comes a point where you have to assume, it either isn't capable of that (and these self-aware holograms are simply very convincing tricks of light (literally) being interpreted by people who love to anthropomorphise everything they see) or the computer itself is self-aware.
 
So then what was that speech at the end where Picard asks everyone to consider that they might be characters in a shitty 80s TV show?
 
Shitty? How very dare you.

That speech had two functions. Firstly, a nice meta joke and secondly, it distracts the audience from noticing that Picard has just locked a sentient life-form in a mind prison for ever.

Because... ha ha ha... we're all trapped in fake realities, aren't we?

Um no, now let Moriarty out, you fucking monster.
 
Moriarity actually had a real chance to roam the actual universe and he blew it. In the episode Emergence he could have been integrated into the composite AI the Enterprise assembled. When the Enterprise Emergent Intelligence left the ship for parts unknown he could have been liberated along with it, going on to participate in whatever travels this Entity undertook.
As it turned out, his files were transferred to a 24th century flash drive that was probably shattered when the Enterprise-D crashed on Veridian 3.
 
Moriarty box was delivered to Jupiter station where Doctor Lewis Zimmerman studied it. The knowledge gained was used in development of EMH.
 
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What weirded me out about that episode was how Moriarty suddenly had a girlfriend and no one batted an eye at it. "Oh, yeah... Countess Slut Bunny. Yep, that was totally a thing that Arthur Conan Doyle wrote. Yep."
 
And she was also apparently sentient. Even holograms can just ask the computer to create sentient life too. Whenever you fancy.

You'd think someone at Starfleet would look into that.
 
I have to say I always hated the concept of sentient holograms. Data being a sentient machine was considered a big deal and a feat that no one in Federation could replicate. Yet, apparently any old computer running the holodeck can achieve the same just fine...
 
Personally I am not convinced that Data is sentient. As long as the possibility exists that he is merely running programs, I'm in no hurry to personify him.

Like Picard said in 'The Measure of a Man', (I don't remember this word for word, but...) humans are "machines" like Data, we just work in a different way. - end "quote"

Is our sentience any "better" than Data's? Data was built by a human, human was "built" by nature...
 
A "Wrath of Moriarty" movie probably would have been better than Generations. Oh well, missed opportunity.

Kor

That's weird, I was having the same thought. Wrath of Moriarty has nice ring to it. I enjoyed the two episodes that he featured in.

Oh and we all know the real reality is that Picard is still in the Nexus, explaining why he saw himself as more of a Bruce Willis type in the other TNG films. It also explains the diminishing returns as the franchise wore on, being as he was the sole storyteller.
 
Bit of a ramble here, feel free to jump ahead to my conclusion:
AI is a record player.

The Hirogen fared the results of their own programming. The holos of Flesh and Blood could achieve what they had without sentience. They were videogame characters with interactive subroutines. Not feeling beings with hearts; only digital analogs with mimicked responses. Would they have seemed so sentient if they were programmed as animal ninjas? They would have seemed like more of what they actually were: dangerous interactive characters running shoddy code. That code could just have easily compelled them to recite a day planner itinerary. In all these cases, the intelligence was that of the coder, and of course, the intelligent pattern recognition of the biological "players"; who determined their own willingness to personify the projections or not. Is Countess Slut Bunny (my new official name for Regina) anything more than a Japanese sex pillow/girlfriend?

The question is not whether they were alive - they were not. The question is - are we?

If the Bajoran leader in F&B got his wish and became a martyr, thus validating holographic existence by "representing" their connection to the Infinite somehow (sacrifice, enlightenment, superstition, tyrrany, etc) - then the question becomes - not, do holos have souls - they do not - but do humans?

If nothing else, the soul becomes a useful social construct, even if only metaphorically.

However, one thing biological entities have that holos do not: BODIES. Thus, body responses to physical stimulation are part and parcel with the "humanoid" experience, and again, irrelevant to the ultimate digital experience. A set of parameters only. Holos seem "real" only because we choose to perceive them as real. Doesn't make them valid individuals; it makes us overly concerned with the question of individualism and erring on the side of caution. Even where it does not apply.

BTW not all humans subscribe to individual rights (very unfortunately). It is a cognitive-cultural construct, not necessarily a biological inevitability. But as said before, even if only metaphorically, the concept has great usefulness. Can it be bent to include AI? Yes, certainly. Is it necessary? The only ones who could possibly answer that could also answer the question authoritatively, "What is a soul?" or perhaps, "What are we, really, and why are we here?"

Personally I will not just give AI the right to a soul. I need more than just personifying manmade electronics and manmade - alterable, governing - programming. Perhaps spontaneous emergence or something.... But not random probability nor differential PID calculations either. All recorded human intelligence at work.

AI is a record player. I'd try not to confuddle the machine with the musician it plays. Although we may very well have to preserve our own individual rights by including them, that is, if we collectively continue to value that cultural paradigm. It does not mean we have somehow achieved the authority to imbue a "soul." That would be hubris itself. And that is where I take an issue, in that sort of human arrogance and complacency with assumption. Yes, we are authorities. No, we are not authorities of the infinite universe - only in our limited grasp of it. Let's be honest.
 
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