Members of the Federation.

[Deranged Nasat]

As for the troubling implications of the Council being filled with people in Starfleet uniforms, my personal interpretation is that former Starfleet personnel are permitted to ceremonially retain their uniform upon leaving the service to enter politics. The novels seem to support this, in that President Thelian, in his comic appearance, was wearing a uniform, and Articles of the Federation listed him as a former Starfleet officer.

Yeah, that's definitely a possibility, though it's still a large bloc of the Council being represented by former Starfleet officers. I'm just not sure how consistent that depiction of Starfleet within the larger life of the Federation is; is the organization really that sprawling? Seems almost suffocating.

(On the other hand, the fact that a Starfleet JAG had some jurisdiction in the case of Richard Bashir might imply that, yes, Starfleet is that much of a sprawling organization.)

For comparison, about one-third of the US Senate and the US House is composed of veterans. So, depending on how sprawling you think the present-day US military is, perhaps it's not such a leap to imagine so many veterans on the Council.

Since Starfleet has such an expansive portfolio - military, diplomacy, exploration, science, etc., I imagine it's one of the more prominent Federation organizations, or at least the most visible, the career path that catches the public imagination and earns the most approval - in part because it has its fingers in so many pies, even though few of them (none, save military and exploration?) are dominated by it. Not that Starfleet would be all-encompassing, only that there's a certain respect that comes with being a former Starfleet officer or crewman. That is, a Starfleet physicist (say) isn't as dedicated or renowned within the field as a full-time physicist, so to speak, but earns a different and maybe comparable prestige through conducting research "out there", working within the structure of the fleet? The diplomatic corps, the scientific bodies, the civil engineering services, the merchant marine, the trade commissions, the homeworld defence forces... (I'm making a Harry Potter reference, gods help me) they're the Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw houses of the Federation, but Starfleet are the Gryffindor? If that makes sense?

As for President Bral, your head cannon works fine - she was described as "a Trill woman", but her home state was never confirmed.

In any case, Trill is probably the most extreme example of an ambiguous presentation in canon that TrekLit has interpreted in one way but could also be validly interpreted in a totally different direction.

Definitely agreed.

I tend toward the idea that the people in Starfleet uniforms in the council chamber in TVH were observers or witnesses, not Council members. After all, the issues under debate were Starfleet-related, so it made sense that there would be Starfleet representatives in attendance to testify or argue before the Council.

I agree.

If I recall, though, the fact that there are two Andorians and two Caitians in the room, just as there are two Deltans, two Vulcans (not counting Sarek), two Zaranites, etc., does seem to strongly imply that these are also Council representatives...only wearing uniforms.

 

[Christopher]

[Edit: I'm responding to Paper Moon here.] ^Given how thoroughly DS9 contradicted so many elements from "The Host," I think we should probably consider a lot of its details to be apocryphal. It's one of those episodes that's been quietly retconned, like "The Alternative Factor" or "Threshold." Consider it a rough-draft version of the Trill that was subsequently rethought.

 

[Masiral]

(On the other hand, the fact that a Starfleet JAG had some jurisdiction in the case of Richard Bashir might imply that, yes, Starfleet is that much of a sprawling organization.)

I would think that Starfleet JAG's involvement was due to Julian Bashir being a Starfleet officer, rather than Starfleet being a sprawling organization.

 

[Sci]

(On the other hand, the fact that a Starfleet JAG had some jurisdiction in the case of Richard Bashir might imply that, yes, Starfleet is that much of a sprawling organization.)

I would think that Starfleet JAG's involvement was due to Julian Bashir being a Starfleet officer, rather than Starfleet being a sprawling organization.

Yeah. The impression I got was that Admiral Bennett's end of things was accepting the deal that Julian would get to stay in Starfleet if Richard went to a prosecutor and turned himself in, not that he would be the one pressing charges against Richard or sentencing him.

Also, I really like the idea that Madza Bral was from Rigel. I agree that it makes the idea that the Federation didn't know about Trill symbionts early on more plausible if Trill wasn't a Member until long after Bral's tenure circa 2230.

 

[Enterprise1701]

I was re-reading the Myriad Universes novella The Chimes at Midnight, and in narration, alternate David Marcus remembers that after he was rescued from captivity by Kruge, he was helped by a Betazoid counselor, whose species came from a planet newly admitted to the Federation. So we've got Betazed's admission to the Federation in ~2285 of a quantum reality that diverged from the prime reality in 2237. Take it as you will for Betazed's admission in the prime reality.

 

[Sci]

Also, Section 31: Disavowed confirms the full formal name of the Bajoran state as the Third Republic of Bajor.

 

[Markonian]

The Memory Beta article still contains uncited items in the Federation membership list.

Where the Ullians ever mentioned to be members? We've seen them as civilians and there is a Starfleet officer on the Aventine, but did we get anything more beyond that?

 

[Sci]

The Memory Beta article still contains uncited items in the Federation membership list.

Where the Ullians ever mentioned to be members? We've seen them as civilians and there is a Starfleet officer on the Aventine, but did we get anything more beyond that?

A Federation Ambassador and Section 31 agent was Ullian in Section 31: Rogue, so I would take that as meaning Ullia is more than likely a Member.

 

[Markonian]

The Memory Beta article still contains uncited items in the Federation membership list.

Where the Ullians ever mentioned to be members? We've seen them as civilians and there is a Starfleet officer on the Aventine, but did we get anything more beyond that?

A Federation Ambassador and Section 31 agent was Ullian in Section 31: Rogue, so I would take that as meaning Ullia is more than likely a Member.

An ambassador is sufficiently "damning" evidence. Thanks!

 

[Endgame]

Cool thread! It was my first reading for 2015. Pretty sophisticated politics. Sort of a CIA World Factbook for Treklit. It would be interesting to know it what ways political technologies had changed from, say, current time to much later times. Hard science technology should not be the only or even the primary technologies to change. It is difficult to see how education would change. Responsibilities demand serious changes in education and I wonder if descriptions of Starfleet Academy are sufficient. I found a 23 year old in charge of the Defiant (in Rebels) during a crisis in a warzone as demanding a challenging educational system. But if social control must be stronger in order to address increased responsibilities and powers, then governments may take a more authoritarian or even totalitarian stand. "Fascism" was named after the "fasces" or bundles reminiscent of the bundle of lightning bolts used in American symbolism. People do seem bundled together in the stories. Our world is just approaching the decisions of space strategy. My metaphysics instructor suggests in some arcane phraseology that there is no such thing as "space" (perhaps only relationships between objects). Still, how to conduct FTL warfare with manual controls does make the stories interesting! How star systems do strategy would be interesting too! One might need to explain why more mortality among members of any federation does not occur. Citizenship & immigration and the ethics thereof would be a good challenging topic. What kinds of passports are there? How are diseases prevented from spreading? Are there regional areas other than those of a military nature or sovereign nature? Where are ships recognized as territory and where not? Does subspace behave as an "international strait"? How much control do species have over their gene pools? How much responsibility do they have for the results of same? Like between two individuals, the theories of boundaries and borders are far more than spatial. How responsible is a star system for its currency if being used farther away? If cashless society, how responsible for goods and services and promises of goods and services? What about information flow? The various forms of "status" and other social exchange resources? The concept of sovereignty among peoples who have reached the stars shall be very different than those who remain dirtbound. Issues such as distribution of risks and types and cultures of corruption may need addressed spatially (if such is the appropriate metaphor) too. Names sometimes do matter. [I shall have to make a New Year's Resolution to keep to the topic of a thread and its primary presenter ... diversity is good but too much diversity coupled with open borders and open markets may prove challenging. Would a starship take the long way round due to border disputes of some kind? Americans and Russians in UNCLOS documents did emphasize as unrestricted travel allowances as possible for their warships much according to Woodrow Wilson's 14 points. There is no reason to believe that a diverse galaxy would provide the same privileges.] I do much like speculative fiction. Speculating about states, governments, and territories is much fun. Speculating about a diversity of such is funner. Speculating about a diversity of such diversities with diverse metalevels is funnerest! I shall have to read the mirror universes soon!

 

[Enterprise1701]

The Memory Beta article still contains uncited items in the Federation membership list.

Where the Ullians ever mentioned to be members? We've seen them as civilians and there is a Starfleet officer on the Aventine, but did we get anything more beyond that?

A Federation Ambassador and Section 31 agent was Ullian in Section 31: Rogue, so I would take that as meaning Ullia is more than likely a Member.

Not necessarily. Leonard James Akaar is C-in-C of Starfleet, but the Capellans aren't members of the Federation. The Platonians probably aren't though Alexander became a Federation ambassador after leaving Platonius. And then there's Commander Worf of Starfleet or Ambassador Alexander Rozhenko.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ We all know that you don't have to be a Federation member, to contribute personnel to Starfleet. Nog, for example.

The only thing is that if somebody is of a particular race that is not part of the Federation, they require certification by a command level Starfleet officer before they can apply. (Nog, for example, needed a letter of recommendation by Sisko.)

 

[Sci]

The Memory Beta article still contains uncited items in the Federation membership list.

Where the Ullians ever mentioned to be members? We've seen them as civilians and there is a Starfleet officer on the Aventine, but did we get anything more beyond that?

A Federation Ambassador and Section 31 agent was Ullian in Section 31: Rogue, so I would take that as meaning Ullia is more than likely a Member.

Not necessarily. Leonard James Akaar is C-in-C of Starfleet, but the Capellans aren't members of the Federation. The Platonians probably aren't though Alexander became a Federation ambassador after leaving Platonius. And then there's Commander Worf of Starfleet or Ambassador Alexander Rozhenko.

True. But my suspicion is that Section 31 is more xenophobic than Starfleet or the Federation government proper, and wouldn't have accepted as one of their agents a citizen of a non-UFP member state.

 

[Enterprise1701]

A Federation Ambassador and Section 31 agent was Ullian in Section 31: Rogue, so I would take that as meaning Ullia is more than likely a Member.

Not necessarily. Leonard James Akaar is C-in-C of Starfleet, but the Capellans aren't members of the Federation. The Platonians probably aren't though Alexander became a Federation ambassador after leaving Platonius. And then there's Commander Worf of Starfleet or Ambassador Alexander Rozhenko.

True. But my suspicion is that Section 31 is more xenophobic than Starfleet or the Federation government proper, and wouldn't have accepted as one of their agents a member of a citizen of a non-UFP member state.

Hmm. The final scene of Disavowed had an Andorian among the conferring members of Section 31. In January 2386.

 

[Sci]

Not necessarily. Leonard James Akaar is C-in-C of Starfleet, but the Capellans aren't members of the Federation. The Platonians probably aren't though Alexander became a Federation ambassador after leaving Platonius. And then there's Commander Worf of Starfleet or Ambassador Alexander Rozhenko.

True. But my suspicion is that Section 31 is more xenophobic than Starfleet or the Federation government proper, and wouldn't have accepted as one of their agents a member of a citizen of a non-UFP member state.

Hmm. The final scene of Disavowed had an Andorian among the conferring members of Section 31. In January 2386.

True. But Andor is a very extraordinary case, since it had literally been a Federation member world since the Founding, and had only left three and a half years prior. I think grandfathering in a loyal agent who's been in for many years (as I presume this senior Section 31 agent would have been) after his Federation-founding homeworld suddenly and unexpected secedes, is a very different thing, to a xenophobic Section 31 mind, from accepting in someone from a world that has never been a Federation member in the first place.

Also, we don't know if that Andorian Section 31 officer was actually a citizen of Andor. For all we know (to throw out one example), he may be the descendant of a biological Andorian diaspora that settled on Rigel III in the 2170s, and thus is actually a citizen of the United Rigel Worlds and Colonies rather than of the Andorian Empire.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

True. But my suspicion is that Section 31 is more xenophobic than Starfleet or the Federation government proper, and wouldn't have accepted as one of their agents a member of a citizen of a non-UFP member state.

Hmm. The final scene of Disavowed had an Andorian among the conferring members of Section 31. In January 2386.

True. But Andor is a very extraordinary case, since it had literally been a Federation member world since the Founding, and had only left three and a half years prior. I think grandfathering in a loyal agent who's been in for many years (as I presume this senior Section 31 agent would have been) after his Federation-founding homeworld suddenly and unexpected secedes, is a very different thing, to a xenophobic Section 31 mind, from accepting in someone from a world that has never been a Federation member in the first place.

Also, we don't know if that Andorian Section 31 officer was actually a citizen of Andor. For all we know (to throw out one example), he may be the descendant of a biological Andorian diaspora that settled on Rigel III in the 2170s, and thus is actually a citizen of the United Rigel Worlds and Colonies rather than of the Andorian Empire.

We were explicitly told that (quite logically) there were millions of Andorian citizens in the UFP during Andor's period of isolation. So I agree, there's no reason to assume that our Andorian was from Andor. That said, I do wonder how Section 31 handled the potential conflict of interest in its Andorian agents (much as I suspect they'd all be dedicated to restoring Andor's membership), and I agree with the logic about Andor being an extraordinary case. Of course, using similar reasoning, the fact that there are Ullians in the UFP doesn't mean Ullia is a member. The Ullians are clearly on good terms with the UFP; there might be a fair amount of immigration. Aubin Tabor could have been born on any number of Federation worlds, and might have no ties to Ullia.

 

[Sci]

Hmm. The final scene of Disavowed had an Andorian among the conferring members of Section 31. In January 2386.

True. But Andor is a very extraordinary case, since it had literally been a Federation member world since the Founding, and had only left three and a half years prior. I think grandfathering in a loyal agent who's been in for many years (as I presume this senior Section 31 agent would have been) after his Federation-founding homeworld suddenly and unexpected secedes, is a very different thing, to a xenophobic Section 31 mind, from accepting in someone from a world that has never been a Federation member in the first place.

Also, we don't know if that Andorian Section 31 officer was actually a citizen of Andor. For all we know (to throw out one example), he may be the descendant of a biological Andorian diaspora that settled on Rigel III in the 2170s, and thus is actually a citizen of the United Rigel Worlds and Colonies rather than of the Andorian Empire.

We were explicitly told that (quite logically) there were millions of Andorian citizens in the UFP during Andor's period of isolation. So I agree, there's no reason to assume that our Andorian was from Andor. That said, I do wonder how Section 31 handled the potential conflict of interest in its Andorian agents (much as I suspect they'd all be dedicated to restoring Andor's membership), and I agree with the logic about Andor being an extraordinary case.

It's an interesting question. Section 31 tends to embrace Federation nationalism, but Andorian nationalism was put on a direct collision course with Federation nationalism with the rise of the Treishya. I might be inclined to suspect that they'd assign as many Andorian agents as possible to covertly influence Andorian politics in favor of re-admission -- but there again, I don't much like the idea that Section 31 might have been secretly funding the pro-Federation parties in the Parliament Andoria on a metatextual level; it taints the narrative's sense of moral victory when Andor re-joins in The Fall.

Plus, as die-hard Federation nationalists, maybe Section 31 would rather that any world that doesn't want to be in the Federation leave and then come what may.

Of course, it occurs to me that maybe Section 31 would have the easiest time in the world dealing with Andorian agents between 2382 and 2385: All they really have to do is have their minds scanned by a Betazoid agent. The Betazoid can then confirm whether that agent's primary loyalty is to the UFP or to Andor.

Of course, using similar reasoning, the fact that there are Ullians in the UFP doesn't mean Ullia is a member. The Ullians are clearly on good terms with the UFP; there might be a fair amount of immigration. Aubin Tabor could have been born on any number of Federation worlds, and might have no ties to Ullia.

This is true. However, I think that the most probable -- and simplest -- scenario is simply that Ullia is a Federation member world. This is not the only possible scenario, but I think it's the most probable and simplest.

 

[Hando]

I was looking over the lists and making my own guesses, when I realized that I have no idea where these planets were mentioned:

Aldebaran IV
Centrelis
Tygar
Cyrel
Matern
Thelusia (with the flu, but is it actually a planet?)
Zarin

 

[Christopher]

I recognize Matern. Anik of Matern was the first officer of the Excelsior in Peter David's The Captain's Daughter. She was named after, and probably based on, actress Anik Matern, one of the regulars in the TV series Space Cases, which PAD co-created with Bill Mumy.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I was looking over the lists and making my own guesses, when I realized that I have no idea where these planets were mentioned:

Aldebaran IV
Centrelis
Tygar
Cyrel
Matern
Thelusia (with the flu, but is it actually a planet?)
Zarin

Centrelis is mentioned in The Captain's Daughter, positioned on the Tholian border. The text says that it's joined the Federation, but the description of what's occurring leads me to interpret that as more likely referring to its gaining protectorate status or the like.

Matern is mentioned in the same novel. Excelsior's first officer at the time is from Matern. So: possibly a Federation member, but no reason it needs to be.

Tygar might not exist. It's my extrapolation from Tygarian. I seem to remember - but I find nothing on Memory Alpha so maybe I imagined it - seeing one in a Starfleet uniform once. Combined with the fact that they're sending ships through the wormhole quite early on - and you tend to need to be on good terms with the UFP to achieve that - I've wondered if they're a possibility for membership.

Cyreli and Zarin are throw-away races name-dropped in Vulcan's Soul. Some Zarin at least are part of the UFP, Cyreli it's unclear. Planets might not actually exist (for all I know the Zarin are an ethnic bloc of the Ithenites or something).

Thelusia I'm assuming is a planet because The Sundered introduced the Thelusian species (I imagine they bring us the Thelusian flu).