Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we love
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Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
The most fascinating thing about Rick Berman today is his humility.
He acknowledges the mistakes that were made, as well as celebrating the triumphs.
I do think on some level he was stuck in a unenviable position:
As Star Trek's top dog, he was seen by the Paramount brass as a steady hand at the wheel, somebody who always delivered what was asked of him and (from their point-of-view) was a reliable show-runner.
But he was also this divisive figure in the fanbase. Somebody whose position was mocked by the end, whose contributions were increasingly accentuated in the negative by a vocal contingent of the fans.
Realistically I think it would have been healthy for him to step aside, but on another level I suspect he couldn't, either because it was a steady pay check (and nobody turns down a steady pay check), or because he was simply stopped from doing so by a lack of opportunities elsewhere or a Paramount brass who kept asking him "C'mon, just make one more Trek show for us, okay?", and feeling therefore compelled to stick around. Who knows. Maybe we'll never fully understand the politics of it all.
I do find Berman's more recent interviews refreshingly honest. I think he's an upfront kind of guy, and he did get demonized for the Star Trek franchises woes during its darkest hour.
But at the end of the day, as even Rick Berman himself has said, he was the guy at the top when it all started falling apart, so the buck ultimately stops at his desk. No-one else's.
It's to his credit that he acknowledges that as well.
The most fascinating thing about Rick Berman today is his humility.
He acknowledges the mistakes that were made, as well as celebrating the triumphs.
I do think on some level he was stuck in a unenviable position:
As Star Trek's top dog, he was seen by the Paramount brass as a steady hand at the wheel, somebody who always delivered what was asked of him and (from their point-of-view) was a reliable show-runner.
But he was also this divisive figure in the fanbase. Somebody whose position was mocked by the end, whose contributions were increasingly accentuated in the negative by a vocal contingent of the fans.
Realistically I think it would have been healthy for him to step aside, but on another level I suspect he couldn't, either because it was a steady pay check (and nobody turns down a steady pay check), or because he was simply stopped from doing so by a lack of opportunities elsewhere or a Paramount brass who kept asking him "C'mon, just make one more Trek show for us, okay?", and feeling therefore compelled to stick around. Who knows. Maybe we'll never fully understand the politics of it all.
I do find Berman's more recent interviews refreshingly honest. I think he's an upfront kind of guy, and he did get demonized for the Star Trek franchises woes during its darkest hour.
But at the end of the day, as even Rick Berman himself has said, he was the guy at the top when it all started falling apart, so the buck ultimately stops at his desk. No-one else's.
It's to his credit that he acknowledges that as well.
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
In fact, there have been several people associated with Trek over the years who have turned down steady -- and sizeable -- paychecks because they disagreed with the direction it was going or what they had been asked to do.
Harold Livingston was so incensed by Roddenberry's continued meddling in the script for TMP that he walked away from a $10,000 per week (!) paycheck.
Harve Bennett felt creatively drained as far as utilizing the original cast was concerned, and walked away from a guaranteed four years worth of substantial pay and the producership of two movies, because Paramount was insisting on a classic cast film for Star Trek VI.
Ira Steven Behr felt that the conditions placed on writers of TNG hamstrung them and hurt the drama, so he walked away from his steady paycheck as a producer following the third season.
So, yes, folks do step away from steady paychecks in the entertainment industry all the time for creative and personal reasons. I cannot speak to Rick Berman's personal finances, but I would have to think that there would have been a point where he could have reasonably stepped aside and let someone else take over.
While I agree with most of what you said, this part is definitely not true.
In fact, there have been several people associated with Trek over the years who have turned down steady -- and sizeable -- paychecks because they disagreed with the direction it was going or what they had been asked to do.
Harold Livingston was so incensed by Roddenberry's continued meddling in the script for TMP that he walked away from a $10,000 per week (!) paycheck.
Harve Bennett felt creatively drained as far as utilizing the original cast was concerned, and walked away from a guaranteed four years worth of substantial pay and the producership of two movies, because Paramount was insisting on a classic cast film for Star Trek VI.
Ira Steven Behr felt that the conditions placed on writers of TNG hamstrung them and hurt the drama, so he walked away from his steady paycheck as a producer following the third season.
So, yes, folks do step away from steady paychecks in the entertainment industry all the time for creative and personal reasons. I cannot speak to Rick Berman's personal finances, but I would have to think that there would have been a point where he could have reasonably stepped aside and let someone else take over.
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
^ True, my statement was something of a generalization for sure.
Part of me thinks it's probably not true anyway. Berman seems like he's being honest when he says that he felt a devotion to "carrying on Gene's legacy", and I don't doubt he was financially solvent. But I also suspect there were other, more political reasons why he was kept on. Star Trek had become this kind of chain product, and Berman had proven a success at keeping that chain going. No sooner had one show finished than Berman was already being asked to make another. He was liked by the brass and was a good show-runner in this way, so at the end of the day I think there was probably no reason behind-the-scenes why he would step down. Even though it probably would've revitalized the franchise if he had.
^ True, my statement was something of a generalization for sure.
Part of me thinks it's probably not true anyway. Berman seems like he's being honest when he says that he felt a devotion to "carrying on Gene's legacy", and I don't doubt he was financially solvent. But I also suspect there were other, more political reasons why he was kept on. Star Trek had become this kind of chain product, and Berman had proven a success at keeping that chain going. No sooner had one show finished than Berman was already being asked to make another. He was liked by the brass and was a good show-runner in this way, so at the end of the day I think there was probably no reason behind-the-scenes why he would step down. Even though it probably would've revitalized the franchise if he had.
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
It certainly might have done, but I question the "probably". That's what I call the "new blood" fallacy, since that particular phrase was thrown around a lot in the late Berman era. If Nemesis (written and directed by newcomers) didn't kill the theory that new was automatically better, the very mixed bag of Trek 11 and 12 should've.
It certainly might have done, but I question the "probably". That's what I call the "new blood" fallacy, since that particular phrase was thrown around a lot in the late Berman era. If Nemesis (written and directed by newcomers) didn't kill the theory that new was automatically better, the very mixed bag of Trek 11 and 12 should've.
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
We've seen JJ-Kirk only twice? We knew TOS Kirk's pedigree after his very first appearance in WNMHGB. TOS Kirk proved himself in his first 50 minutes of screen time. JJ-Kirk has had 4 hours of screen time and still not proven himself worthy.
Not the same by a long shot.
TOS Kirk was an experienced adult officer who earned his position and the respect of those he commanded. JJ-Kirk is an unlikeable smart-ass punk who got lucky in a service with no sense of credibility whatsoever. And he got rewarded for being lucky once as opposed to years of experience earning his reward.We've seen Abramsverse Kirk all of twice. And Jim Kirk (TOS) wasn't shy about using his phaser when necessary.I didn't find the Abrams "philosophically out-of-sync" with the rest of the franchise. Especially Star Trek: The Original Series.
TOS Kirk won battles by tricking enemies into thinking he had corbomite aboard and by talking robots into self destructing. In some cases by convincing the enemy to stop fighting.
Abrams Kirk won them by beaming in and shooting people.
Not the same thing.
We've seen JJ-Kirk only twice? We knew TOS Kirk's pedigree after his very first appearance in WNMHGB. TOS Kirk proved himself in his first 50 minutes of screen time. JJ-Kirk has had 4 hours of screen time and still not proven himself worthy.
Not the same by a long shot.
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
If I knew a guy like JJ-Kirk in person the main thought going through my head would be, "This guy is an idiot and an arrogant asshole."
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
I watched Into Darkness again the other day, and out of both films, I thought Pine's best scene was grieving over Pike. At one point, he scrunches his face in anguish and he looks very similar to Shatner's Evil Kirk begging to live at the end of "The Enemy Within". The film scripts really aren't giving him much of a chance to do anything but be a smartass. So I'm thinking he has the talent, he's just not being allowed to use it.
I watched Into Darkness again the other day, and out of both films, I thought Pine's best scene was grieving over Pike. At one point, he scrunches his face in anguish and he looks very similar to Shatner's Evil Kirk begging to live at the end of "The Enemy Within". The film scripts really aren't giving him much of a chance to do anything but be a smartass. So I'm thinking he has the talent, he's just not being allowed to use it.
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
Which is true of many, many 25/26 year-old men including those I've known from and in the military and we don't know enough about Prime Jim Kirk to know whether or not he suffered from the same affliction.
Which is true of many, many 25/26 year-old men including those I've known from and in the military and we don't know enough about Prime Jim Kirk to know whether or not he suffered from the same affliction.
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
I'm thinking that either the writers think thats what appeals to the modern audience.
Or they just aren't talented enough to make him likeable and bad-ass at the same time.
Yes.
I'm thinking that either the writers think thats what appeals to the modern audience.
Or they just aren't talented enough to make him likeable and bad-ass at the same time.
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
There have been plenty of characters in film and television that have been badass and yet still likeable to some extent or other. But to take one of your popular characters and make him an idiot and unlikeable is stupidity in itself.
Pine probably does have the chops, but the writers are evidently idiots.
And over the years I've known many mid 20s guys who were nothing like that and they were still quite competent in whatever they were doing.
Which is true of many, many 25/26 year-old men including those I've known from and in the military and we don't know enough about Prime Jim Kirk to know whether or not he suffered from the same affliction.
There have been plenty of characters in film and television that have been badass and yet still likeable to some extent or other. But to take one of your popular characters and make him an idiot and unlikeable is stupidity in itself.
Pine probably does have the chops, but the writers are evidently idiots.
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
Kirk could be fool hardy and reckless. Taking unneeded risks. He's also fiercely loyal to his friends and would move Heaven and Earth to help them, even at the cost of his own career. He's can be cocky and a smartass with people he doesn't respect.(usually the aforementioned Diplomats) I see some of that in this younger Kirk.
There are probably a few folks in the Federation's Diplomatic Corps who think that. And at least one Klingon called him "a swaggering, overbearing, tin-plated dictator with delusions of godhood."
Which is true of many, many 25/26 year-old men including those I've known from and in the military and we don't know enough about Prime Jim Kirk to know whether or not he suffered from the same affliction.
Kirk could be fool hardy and reckless. Taking unneeded risks. He's also fiercely loyal to his friends and would move Heaven and Earth to help them, even at the cost of his own career. He's can be cocky and a smartass with people he doesn't respect.(usually the aforementioned Diplomats) I see some of that in this younger Kirk.
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
Also don't forget Kirk prime lived in a reality where he had his father to Mentor him and mold him into the professional, brash Captain Kirk we know and love.
JJKirk didn't have his father. He had a possibly abusive step father whom Kirk resented enough to steal his car and drive it off a quarry. Without a father figure in his early years he developed differently. He didn't have a sense of discipline until he met Pike. Pike became his father figure and mentor and set him on the path to becoming a Starfleet officer.
A child with a good father and a child without a father can be very different people.
Also don't forget Kirk prime lived in a reality where he had his father to Mentor him and mold him into the professional, brash Captain Kirk we know and love.
JJKirk didn't have his father. He had a possibly abusive step father whom Kirk resented enough to steal his car and drive it off a quarry. Without a father figure in his early years he developed differently. He didn't have a sense of discipline until he met Pike. Pike became his father figure and mentor and set him on the path to becoming a Starfleet officer.
A child with a good father and a child without a father can be very different people.
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Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
For all the faults that JJ's writers get, I think that was a great move. It's not enough to kill a character for sheer shock value; to explore the aftermath of that death isn't something that's very common in today's big-budget blockbusters. It's also clear from the getgo that this isn't a remake just from that scene alone; that even though it's a reboot, there are reasons to it.
For all the faults that JJ's writers get, I think that was a great move. It's not enough to kill a character for sheer shock value; to explore the aftermath of that death isn't something that's very common in today's big-budget blockbusters. It's also clear from the getgo that this isn't a remake just from that scene alone; that even though it's a reboot, there are reasons to it.
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
Agree, 100%.
nuKirk is different, is an "asshole", a jerk, and undisciplined, because of a different backstory. He isn't even in the Academy until Pike pushes him, and challenges him to "do better." The man has all the potential of Prime Kirk, and is wasting it. Yeah, he's a jerk.
Another scene that I absolutely enjoy, especially Pine's performance, is the palatable sense of pain when he asks Prime Spock if he knew his father, and Spock answers "Yes." nuKirk's face is one of pain and loss.
I don't necessarily like nuKirk, but, I understand him.
Agree, 100%.
nuKirk is different, is an "asshole", a jerk, and undisciplined, because of a different backstory. He isn't even in the Academy until Pike pushes him, and challenges him to "do better." The man has all the potential of Prime Kirk, and is wasting it. Yeah, he's a jerk.
Another scene that I absolutely enjoy, especially Pine's performance, is the palatable sense of pain when he asks Prime Spock if he knew his father, and Spock answers "Yes." nuKirk's face is one of pain and loss.
I don't necessarily like nuKirk, but, I understand him.
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l
Back to JJKirk. In Into Darkness, he's still growing. Pike was trying to teach Kirk humility. He was still wreckless, He was confused. unprofessional. Then Pike was murdered. Kirk lost his new father figure. He was alone. He didn't have someone to give him advice. He had to make his own decisions now. Then Marcus comes into play. He uses Pike as a means of manipulating Kirk in a sense. Marcus inspired Pike, Pike inspired Kirk. Common ground. Then here comes the USS Vengeance and it wipes the floor with the Enterprise. Not to mention that Khan overpowered him and beat the crap out of him. That's where Kirk learns humility.
When the pressure got too much, He became unsure of what to do so he confided in his friend Spock. He put Spock in command while he could try to undo the damage done. When the Enterprise was plummeting towards Earth, he made the same decision his Father made. He signed his death warrant to save his crew, his friends, his family. Hopefully NuTrek3 we'll see Kirk as a professional brash Captain. With confidence and ready to take on new challenges and new dangers, ready to face the unknown.
Agreed. I love what the did with all the characters. It would have been boring to reboot the series and have the characters be the same as their TOS counterparts from the get go. It's nice to have a fresh take on something. Sure the plots were sketchy but it was trying to be different. Into Darkness is sketchy at points, but it's still entertaining.
Back to JJKirk. In Into Darkness, he's still growing. Pike was trying to teach Kirk humility. He was still wreckless, He was confused. unprofessional. Then Pike was murdered. Kirk lost his new father figure. He was alone. He didn't have someone to give him advice. He had to make his own decisions now. Then Marcus comes into play. He uses Pike as a means of manipulating Kirk in a sense. Marcus inspired Pike, Pike inspired Kirk. Common ground. Then here comes the USS Vengeance and it wipes the floor with the Enterprise. Not to mention that Khan overpowered him and beat the crap out of him. That's where Kirk learns humility.
When the pressure got too much, He became unsure of what to do so he confided in his friend Spock. He put Spock in command while he could try to undo the damage done. When the Enterprise was plummeting towards Earth, he made the same decision his Father made. He signed his death warrant to save his crew, his friends, his family. Hopefully NuTrek3 we'll see Kirk as a professional brash Captain. With confidence and ready to take on new challenges and new dangers, ready to face the unknown.
