If Mariner was a man, we’d all hate her.

[cooleddie74]

I am an unabashed lover and defender of TOS. To me it is still peak Trek.

But damn, there were a handful of bad episodes I can barely revisit.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeesh! Trek has put out a lot of shit in the past ten years, but I didn't realize fan standards were so low! I mean... you can get mere "entertainment" anywhere. Why even tune in to something like LD if you could just as easily be watching Daily Dose of Internet?

Anyway, I think this only confirms that most people recognize that LD is basically slop.

No, Star Trek is basically slop. Look back at TOS and TNG and you'll find a mix.

What happened was Trek got elevated way above it's station and people treat it as a religious imperative to be inspired. That's a difficult standard for an entertainment medium to continue on. Star Trek is "mere entertainment" and has been since TOS. Period.

 

[Weyoun 251]

Well, now you do. If the writing is not going to be formulaic, then it needs to be fresh. I think this show falls victim to another, more modern formula, which is that females have to behave like males to be taken seriously, and the males, in turn, have to be effeminate in some way to not compete with the female for dominance.

Formula wise, there are a few different relationships Mariner and Boimler could have.

1) Will They/Won’t They- Overt sexual tension. Nope
2) BFF’s- Good friends who vibe off each other. Nope
3) Partner’s in Crime- A mischief maker drags the other along for the ride (think Rick and Morty). Nope.
4) Big Sister/Little Brother- The “sister” has to frequently come to the rescue of the hapless “brother”. They seemed to be setting this up at the beginning, but… nope.
5) Frenemies- Close, but still nope. Mariner does not seem to really want to be in Boimler’s bizz.

And finally:

6) It’s Mary Sue’s World and You’re Just Living In It.

I think we have a winner!

Have you been outside or gone to work in the last 30 years? Women absolutely have to act like men to be taken seriously in certain industries - there are literally whole movements and policies around stopping this being necessary!

Starbuck is the perfect example in Sci Fi as she is a fighter jock - very much a male dominated world - as so had to be bigger and badder than them all out together to get respect.

Conversely men for years have been told they can't be in touch with feelings or show emotion - well society is moving now such that it is celebrated to be conscious of how you feel and to be your true self.

Also you might want to edit point 6 before a mod spots it...

 

[BillJ]

Yeesh! Trek has put out a lot of shit in the past ten years, but I didn't realize fan standards were so low! I mean... you can get mere "entertainment" anywhere. Why even tune in to something like LD if you could just as easily be watching Daily Dose of Internet?

Anyway, I think this only confirms that most people recognize that LD is basically slop.

You sure are putting a lot of time into a show you don’t like. I think that is the biggest problem you have.

 

[Death Ray]

Have you been outside or gone to work in the last 30 years? Women absolutely have to act like men to be taken seriously in certain industries - there are literally whole movements and policies around stopping this being necessary!

I thought this was the universe of Star Trek, where "all that nonsense is centuries behind us".

Starbuck is the perfect example in Sci Fi as she is a fighter jock - very much a male dominated world - as so had to be bigger and badder than them all out together to get respect.

Funny you should mention that. I watched the first 15 minutes of Another Life, which stars Katee Sackhoff. The first thing I noticed was that she was playing a Starbuck-like badass, but her husband seemed like kind of a wuss. I couldn't help wondering if that was deliberate-- sort of like with Mariner and Boimler, where they squish-up the man to make the tough woman more formidable.

The problem I had with that premise is that I don't actually think a very tough military woman would credibly be attracted to someone more feminine than her. I don't believe opposites attract in this way, and it broke my suspension of disbelief.

Conversely men for years have been told they can't be in touch with feelings or show emotion - well society is moving now such that it is celebrated to be conscious of how you feel and to be your true self.

Certainly not in my lifetime. I was weaned on Free to Be You and Me, and the notion that men can cry is pretty well reinforced everywhere I look. People keep acting like we are still in the 1950s.

Also you might want to edit point 6 before a mod spots it...

I know my rights, copper!

 

[Death Ray]

You sure are putting a lot of time into a show you don’t like. I think that is the biggest problem you have.

My roommate likes it, so I must endure. And my biggest problem is yours as well: Alex Kurtzman.

 

[Death Ray]

I am an unabashed lover and defender of TOS. To me it is still peak Trek.

But damn, there were a handful of bad episodes I can barely revisit.

What, you didn't like the big eared space hippies? Get now, Herbert!

 

[fireproof78]

thought this was the universe of Star Trek, where "all that nonsense is centuries behind us".

Nope. They still deal with the human condition.

My roommate likes it, so I must endure. And my biggest problem is yours as well: Alex Kurtzman.

Do you know how much my wife watches that I don't? Headphones, man.

 

[Weyoun 251]

I thought this was the universe of Star Trek, where "all that nonsense is centuries behind us".



Funny you should mention that. I watched the first 15 minutes of Another Life, which stars Katee Sackhoff. The first thing I noticed was that she was playing a Starbuck-like badass, but her husband seemed like kind of a wuss. I couldn't help wondering if that was deliberate-- sort of like with Mariner and Boimler, where they squish-up the man to make the tough woman more formidable.

The problem I had with that premise is that I don't actually think a very tough military woman would credibly be attracted to someone more feminine than her. I don't believe opposites attract in this way, and it broke my suspension of disbelief.



Certainly not in my lifetime. I was weaned on Free to Be You and Me, and the notion that men can cry is pretty well reinforced everywhere I look. People keep acting like we are still in the 1950s.



I know my rights, copper!

Fair enough on the point about them being more evolved - depends where on the spectrum you view Trek i.e. allegory for the era it is written or future idealised. I tend to look to the allegory end but this is highly subjective so each to their own and certainly in part where we differ.

Agreed that it isn't still the 50s but we may just be having a clash of cultures here - the US is far ahead of the UK in terms of therapy and that being normalised and, especially in working class cities like Liverpool it will be seen as weakness and preyed upon.

Allo Allo Allo - I meant it more tongue in cheek rather than trying to be an ersatz mod/PCSO (Petty c---- Sod Off is I believe the official term but I have heard it also means Police Community Support Officer)

 

[ananta]

She is utterly obnoxious regardless of sex. I almost didn’t get beyond the first few episodes of season one because of Mariner. Now I can tolerate her, but yeesh.

 

[cooleddie74]

What, you didn't like the big eared space hippies? Get now, Herbert!

That's actually one I like. It's too goofy not to.

 

[Michael]

I think we're done here. This only goes in circles at this point. And also …

6) It’s Mary Sue’s World and You’re Just Living In It.

You couldn't resist, could ya? Obviously we don't hand out warnings to everyone using the “Mary Sue” buzzword, but after having repeatedly asked you to avoid this and just stick to your arguments, you kinda forced my hand by not complying. Warning for trolling. Comments to PM.

For future reference, please convey your opinions in a way that doesn't make half the board question if you're actually just there to troll them. That'll make all of our lives way easier.