I want to experience Batman and Superman

[DarKush]

For Superman,

If you want to a birth to death type of experience, I recommend the alternate worlds Red Son. As for reboots, Secret Origins and Man of Steel have been mentioned already, but I might've missed Birthright. This reboot had some Smallville influences, which might be appealing to you or turn you completely off. I really liked the artwork.

For Batman,

For arcs, I really liked Knightfall Parts 1 and 2. Knightfall Part 3 was okay, the artwork wasn't as good. I also recommend Year One and Dark Knight Returns. The Killing Joke and Death in the Family are both monumental works that show how Batman deals with peril for those he cares for, if not being imperiled himself necessarily. Last year's Batman RIP works better as a TPB than stand alone issues. The artwork for RIP was good, but the story had some loopy turns so I recommend holding off on that one for a bit, if you were inclined to read it at all.

There's also the current running Superman/Batman comics, but I can't vouch for their consistency or quality. I've only read two of the TPBs, the one with Supergirl and Public Enemies, which was recently adapted to an animated movie.

 

[the Dagman]

For an "ending" to the story of Superman, I will direct you to the two parter of "Whatever Happened To Superman" written by Alan Moore and drawn by long-time Superman penciller Curt Swan. It came out just after the first Crisis (DC's first of their multiversal shake-ups) and just before John Byrne was given the reigns to restart the character with The Man Of Steel mini in 1986. This was Alan Moore back when he had recently finished his work on Miracle/Marvelman and just before he did Watchmen. A great read.

 

[shivkala]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "experience."

All-Star Superman, while not in continuity, is, for my money, the best "experience." For one, you get a complete story in 12 issues and you don't need to have any prior experience or fear that later stories will discount what happened. If you just want to read a Superman story to read a Superman story, then this is it.

As for Batman, yeah, I'd go with Year One and The Long Halloween (I haven't read Dark Victory, yet) to see the beginnings of the character in continuity.

 

[Christopher]

For an "ending" to the story of Superman, I will direct you to the two parter of "Whatever Happened To Superman" written by Alan Moore and drawn by long-time Superman penciller Curt Swan. It came out just after the first Crisis (DC's first of their multiversal shake-ups) and just before John Byrne was given the reigns to restart the character with The Man Of Steel mini in 1986. This was Alan Moore back when he had recently finished his work on Miracle/Marvelman and just before he did Watchmen. A great read.

Agreed, but it's called "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" and is available in a trade paperback of that name (which also includes Alan Moore's "For the Man Who Has Everything," which I didn't think was nearly as good as the Justice League Unlimited episode adapted from it).

 

[Myasishchev]

For an "ending" to the story of Superman, I will direct you to the two parter of "Whatever Happened To Superman" written by Alan Moore and drawn by long-time Superman penciller Curt Swan. It came out just after the first Crisis (DC's first of their multiversal shake-ups) and just before John Byrne was given the reigns to restart the character with The Man Of Steel mini in 1986. This was Alan Moore back when he had recently finished his work on Miracle/Marvelman and just before he did Watchmen. A great read.

Agreed, but it's called "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" and is available in a trade paperback of that name (which also includes Alan Moore's "For the Man Who Has Everything," which I didn't think was nearly as good as the Justice League Unlimited episode adapted from it).

The Justice League Unlimited episode must be friggin' awesome, then.

I disagree with most of the commenters here. Read Dark Knight Returns first. I believe it was the first Batman comic I ever read, and it's an exceedingly good comic.

I also agree with whoever mentioned Grant Morrison's JLA work. Good Batman in that. I also concur with the idea of reading Arkham Asylum and Year One.

 

[Stevil2001]

Superman: Birthright is crap crap crap. The Man of Steel is still my preferred (comics) origin story for the character, though I'll admit I haven't read the new Secret Origins yet. Honestly, the perfect Superman origin story exists only in my head, sort of merging element of The Man of Steel and Superman: The Movie, with Braniac there like he was in the 1990s cartoon.

But if you want to read a complete history of Batman and Superman, you can't go wrong with John Byrne's Superman & Batman: Generations, which takes both characters from 1939 to 1999, aging them in real time as the debut, grow, get married, have kids, and retire. It's pretty dang sweet.

 

[Christopher]

Agreed, but it's called "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" and is available in a trade paperback of that name (which also includes Alan Moore's "For the Man Who Has Everything," which I didn't think was nearly as good as the Justice League Unlimited episode adapted from it).

The Justice League Unlimited episode must be friggin' awesome, then.

It's not bad. What I mean is that the original comic story disappointed me (after having seen the JLU episode first). It was bizarre --

Spoiler: "For the Man Who Has Everything"

Moore seemed to be suggesting that Krypton deserved to be destroyed, that if it had survived, it would've degenerated into bigotry and tyranny and Jor-El himself would've become a monster. That was creepy.

More fundamentally, the Black Mercy was supposed to give Superman his fondest desire, a prison it would devastate him to escape from. So why was this ideal fantasy so dystopian and violent? That doesn't make any sense.

The JLU episode is much better. Superman's fantasy really is an idyllic, happy life (and it's a merger of the best aspects of both his Kryptonian and Earth heritages, rather than purely Kryptonian, which makes more sense to me), but on some level his awareness of the truth -- and his responsibilities in the real world -- penetrate the fantasy and make it impossible for him to remain. And it's much sadder to see him give up the fantasy life he has in the episode. In the original comic, the fantasy Krypton is so dystopian and horrible that one can't really feel Superman has sacrificed anything by leaving it. Mongul's line that escaping must've been like tearing off his own arm falls flat as a result. In the episode, that line actually worked.

 

[byron lomax]

Agreed, but it's called "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" and is available in a trade paperback of that name (which also includes Alan Moore's "For the Man Who Has Everything," which I didn't think was nearly as good as the Justice League Unlimited episode adapted from it).

The Justice League Unlimited episode must be friggin' awesome, then.

It's not bad. What I mean is that the original comic story disappointed me (after having seen the JLU episode first). It was bizarre --

Spoiler: "For the Man Who Has Everything"

Moore seemed to be suggesting that Krypton deserved to be destroyed, that if it had survived, it would've degenerated into bigotry and tyranny and Jor-El himself would've become a monster. That was creepy.

More fundamentally, the Black Mercy was supposed to give Superman his fondest desire, a prison it would devastate him to escape from. So why was this ideal fantasy so dystopian and violent? That doesn't make any sense.

The JLU episode is much better. Superman's fantasy really is an idyllic, happy life (and it's a merger of the best aspects of both his Kryptonian and Earth heritages, rather than purely Kryptonian, which makes more sense to me), but on some level his awareness of the truth -- and his responsibilities in the real world -- penetrate the fantasy and make it impossible for him to remain. And it's much sadder to see him give up the fantasy life he has in the episode. In the original comic, the fantasy Krypton is so dystopian and horrible that one can't really feel Superman has sacrificed anything by leaving it. Mongul's line that escaping must've been like tearing off his own arm falls flat as a result. In the episode, that line actually worked.

I think the scenes of chaos and anarchy on Krypton were meant to convey the danger that Superman senses when Mongul is close, or perhaps rumbles in his consciousness that the true nature of the situation isn't as rosy as what the Black Mercy is trying to convince him.

 

[Christopher]

But if so, it works better in the episode than the comic, because in the comic we get no sense that the situation in the fantasy Krypton is anywhere near idyllic. The whole thing is an increasingly dystopian mess. In the episode, it was mostly a happy life for Kal-El, but there were "rumbles," as you say, telling him of the danger. So the episode did a better job telling the comic's story than the comic did, because the comic's execution clashed with its evident intent.

 

[Myasishchev]

I dunno, I'd have to see the JLU ep to say for sure which is better, but it always struck me that Kal had to sacrifice quite a bit to free himself--I mean, most obviously, his son.

Sure, it wasn't idyllic, but that wasn't the point--Bruce Wayne's brief episode with a world where his parents lived would surely not have been idyllic, either, in its wholeness--it may have been even worse because Batman isn't around to beat up the Joker and occasionally save the world and such. However, Tom and Martha were not brutally gunned down in the street. As far as Bruce is concerned, the dreamworld is pretty much 100% superior.

And so with Kal. The point was that Krypton lived and Kal had a family--utopia or no, this is infinitely better than reality, where Krypton is dead and Kryptonians teeter on extinction. Further, the collapse of Kal's dream life is also cognizable as a resistance to the plant on an unconscious level.

In any event, there was plenty for Superman to be angry about when he woke up...

 

[Christopher]

It just didn't feel that way to me. And as I said, I'm extremely disturbed by the story's depiction of the surviving Krypton becoming a police state torn by ethnic strife and Jor-El becoming a Neo-Nazi or whatever, because it seems to be saying that Krypton deserved to die, that if it had lived, it would've turned evil. That just feels creepy and wrong to me. I see what the story was going for, but to me, it failed. The episode did a better job of conveying the same ideas and feelings.

 

[StarTrek1701]

Does anyone remember when comics just used to be fun?

 

[Myasishchev]

It just didn't feel that way to me. And as I said, I'm extremely disturbed by the story's depiction of the surviving Krypton becoming a police state torn by ethnic strife and Jor-El becoming a Neo-Nazi or whatever, because it seems to be saying that Krypton deserved to die, that if it had lived, it would've turned evil. That just feels creepy and wrong to me. I see what the story was going for, but to me, it failed. The episode did a better job of conveying the same ideas and feelings.

Oh well, fair enough.

Does anyone remember when comics just used to be fun?

What, like Fantastic Four, premised largely on Ben Grimm's permanent disfigurement and alienation, often involving ancient alien gods who've arrived to destroy all life on Earth?

Or Spider-Man, in which, early on, the disposable uncle dies for no better narrative reason than to teach a lesson, and not much later a blonde is execute by the villain for no better reason than it hurts the male hero.

Or the X-Men, fifty years of racism and genocide and the occasional, thematically dissonant Shi'ar.

Or Batman. Nothing's more fun than an orphan!

But, aside from that, it depends on what's meant by "fun." I have a lot more fun reading a sophisticated book like Watchmen than trying to slog through some of the bubblegum filler the Silver Age liked to use for stories, like Batman fighting crime--as a baby.

 

[byron lomax]

Does anyone remember when comics just used to be fun?

I've been getting more and more into comics in the past two years, and hell they've been a lot of fun. Comics are, and always have been a medium, through which any story genre can be told. I've loved both dark and serious and thought-provoking comics and funny, action-packed, colourful comics.

 

[coolghoul]

It just didn't feel that way to me. And as I said, I'm extremely disturbed by the story's depiction of the surviving Krypton becoming a police state torn by ethnic strife and Jor-El becoming a Neo-Nazi or whatever, because it seems to be saying that Krypton deserved to die, that if it had lived, it would've turned evil. That just feels creepy and wrong to me. I see what the story was going for, but to me, it failed. The episode did a better job of conveying the same ideas and feelings.

The JLU episode was great too - it "sticks" in my memory. I read the Alan Moore story later. There are some key differences - the Alan Moore story gives him what he wants (a still-existing Krypton) but then subtly (or not so subtly) starts taking it all away - it's not utopia, things are not going well, there's hatred on the rise and so on. In the episode, it's more idyllic and it is more painful for him to refuse the happy fantasy of his son (to the viewer's point of view).

Also, the JLU ep makes awesome use of the story point where Batman gets the Black Mercy - no spoilers since that has to be seen in the episode to get the proper effect.

Plus the Alan Moore comic has the "Think clean thoughts, chum" line.

I wouldn't recommend Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrow as a starting point - simply because there are far too many things that the reader has to know - Legion of Super Heroes, Brainiac, Perry's wife etc.

That's why I recommend actually reading some of the earlier Curt Swan drawn comics (even tho' they may be full of superdickery). In many ways, they have helped establish the character.

 

[Christopher]

The JLU episode was great too - it "sticks" in my memory. I read the Alan Moore story later. There are some key differences - the Alan Moore story gives him what he wants (a still-existing Krypton) but then subtly (or not so subtly) starts taking it all away...

That's another way I think the episode executed the concept better than the original comic. I find it hard to believe that the ideal fantasy of someone who left Krypton as an infant and grew up entirely on Earth would be solely about Krypton. I know the Silver/Bronze Age Superman was portrayed as someone who was always Superman and just donned the Clark Kent role as camouflage, but even so, he considered Earth his home and loved it. I can't believe he'd be happy in a fantasy world that had nothing of Earth to it. The episode works better because it embodies his desires from both sides of his nature. He's living on Krypton, but he's a farmer, and his Kryptonian wife has Lois's voice and Lana's hair.

 

[shivkala]

It also goes to show that it's pretty naive to think that there is a perfect fantasy for everyone that will totally distract them. It goes back to what Mr. Smith said in The Matrix about how humanity rejected the original Matrix since it was too "perfect."

The episode really played up, as you said, how Kal-El and Clark would have two different versions of the idea life and tried to merge them. What really drove it home and showed that the Mercy chose incorrectly was how Jor-El's voice shifted to Pa Kent's as the fantasy unraveled.

And since this veered into a discussion of "For the Man Who Has Everything," what is going on in the scene where Wonder Woman gives him her gift in the comic? I read it to imply that Kandor was back to being a bottle city, but he didn't want her to know about that. Wikipedia says it was to hide his own replica of Kandor, which again, does not seem to make sense without context.

 

[coolghoul]

^ I thought it was meant to illustrate that either he had already created a replica of it himself (or somebody else had given it to him) and he didn't want to hurt WW's feelings.

It also is circular and ties in to the title of the story - to the man who has everything, you can't give a "new" birthday present. He already had a Kandor replica and he had already received flowers!

Back to the JLU ep - Maybe they should have Superman say the "Think clean thoughts, chum" to Bats at the end of the episode while Bats is wondering the same thing about WW as Robin did in the comics - it kinda would've made sense since in the DCAU, Bats and WW liked each other.

 

[Christopher]

Back to the JLU ep - Maybe they should have Superman say the "Think clean thoughts, chum" to Bats at the end of the episode while Bats is wondering the same thing about WW as Robin did in the comics - it kinda would've made sense since in the DCAU, Bats and WW liked each other.

Except the DCAU Superman and Batman weren't really "chums." And it would be out of character to put Batman in Robin's role in that sense. He's the world's greatest detective, and he's been working alongside Wonder Woman for a couple of years at the time of the episode. He's probably deduced an Amazon's tolerance for extreme weather based on extended observation. Nor would he be so juvenile as to get flustered by her costume, especially after all that time working alongside her. The scene in the comic works not just because it's Robin, but because it's a new Robin (Jason Todd) who's meeting Wonder Woman for the first time.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

Superman: Birthright is crap crap crap. The Man of Steel is still my preferred (comics) origin story for the character,

Wow - couldn't disagree more. I found Man of Steel to be incredibly stiff storytelling and icky art. Its depiction of Luthor was somewhat interesting, but Magpie? This is a villain worthy of a deluxe retelling of Superman's origins? Meanwhile Birthright's emotional beats had real punch, the plot was overall much more coherent and the art was much better. But vive le difference, eh?