how many is too many?
dam it how do i edit the thread title?
dam it how do i edit the thread title?
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how many ship class does Starfleet need?
- Thread starter Wingcommanderdarkwolf01
- Start date
Starfleet may have dozens of different starship classes in service at any given time, (space is big--we may not just see them all). The Klingon and the Romulan navies have their own ship building policies, but Starfleet seems to favor constantly introducing new designs to keep itself modern. Sure, there are some designs that are upgraded and even redesigned over time, but that may be far more rare than common, IMO. Rather than try to incorporate new technologies and improvements across the entire fleet, Starfleet would rather just churn out new classes of ships with those new advances instead. This may causes some designs to be either redundant or have relatively short service life-spans as a result. That may seem inefficient and even wasteful to some, but apparently Starfleet can afford to do that with the Federation's backing.
For my part, I'm of the mind Starfleet generally keeps a number of older refits in service while also working on newer generations. I see no reason why some of the older models we've conveniently seen couldn't be refitted with modern systems, and in my head canon it's also an easier way to reconcile differences between canon class names and those from offscreen and fan sources. The Miranda designation could mainly refer to Reliant type ships that were modified in the TNG era, as an example.
Enough for all their merchandising needs from now until the show becomes unprofitable again.
Volume of known space expands massively with every lightyear out The Federation explores. To maintain shipping and communication routes will require a rapidly growing fleet.
It would therefore make logical sense for starships to be reassigned from front line duties to more mundane use as newer models come to the fore. Maybe something akin to a merchant division of Starfleet, whist being retained at full readiness should the need occur. Such ships may actually form the bulk of the fleet and due to modularity of design, be relatively easily upgraded as they age.
Of course, some very populous and / or successful spaceframes can also have their front line service extended in the same way, explaining the number of Miranda and Excelsior types seen.
It would therefore make logical sense for starships to be reassigned from front line duties to more mundane use as newer models come to the fore. Maybe something akin to a merchant division of Starfleet, whist being retained at full readiness should the need occur. Such ships may actually form the bulk of the fleet and due to modularity of design, be relatively easily upgraded as they age.
Of course, some very populous and / or successful spaceframes can also have their front line service extended in the same way, explaining the number of Miranda and Excelsior types seen.
At least 4,294,967,296 ships.
Given how large the UFP is and how much territory / Man Power it should have.
Those #'s would be easily do-able with a very large Multi-Species organization like StarFleet drawing servicemen from all their member worlds.
154x Member Species of the UFP as of 2380
For reference, here's Earth in the present time.
https://tradingeconomics.com/world/armed-forces-personnel-total-wb-data.html
At least 27,671,000 members of the armed services in total on Earth in 2019 with such a tiny global population of ~ 7.5 Billion people.
Only ~0.368946…% of the Population serves in the military on Earth at that time.
Given StarFleet's popularity, I wouldn't be surprised if 1-2% of every member species population of the UFP's would want to be part of StarFleet. Given WAY more than 10 Billion people per species estimate for easy math sake. It'd probably be way higher in reality due to advanced resource economics and abundance. That's easily 100,000,000 - 200,000,000 people from each Member Species of the UFP joining StarFleet.
So multiply that by an average of 154x Member species:
At least (15,400,000,000 - 30,800,000,000) Service members in StarFleet or whatever UFP considers it's equivalent Armed Forces.
So fielding at least 4,294,967,296 StarShips worth of man power split across 154 species & Multiple Star Systems with multiple Orbital Factories in each Member Species Star Systems to pump out ships is very realistic IMO.
That leaves about 27,889,398 StarShips per Member Species (154x Members as of 2380) to manufacture and maintain.
This is not even counting StarBases & Planetary Bases along with the Logistics train that all needs to be created to support such a vast endeavor like StarFleet.
Given StarFleet is the BackBone for UFP political enforcement of will and Scientific/Diplomatic Exploration along with Military Defense.
Remember, most of the manufacturing would largely be Automated via Replicators & Robots.
Like the way most Auto Manufacturing is largely automated with minor fit & finish done by people.
Pumping out StarShip designs in the Millions/Billions would be trivial for StarFleet.
Especially when they were fighting a war of attrition against the Dominions vast #'s and needing to replace man power and ships on a weekly basis due to massive casualties.
Because using proper planning of allocation and training and operational tempo, only about 2/3-3/4th of the total fleet will be out and about while some significant fraction of the entire fleet will be in for repairs, refit, upgrades along with training of the crew and validating entire systems of repaired or upgraded ships.
That's probably why StarFleet has a huge bureaucracy with ALOT of Flag Officers all over the place.
Especially given how many Fleets of Ships were operated during the Dominion War and countless ships were getting masacred on a weekly basis along with their crews.
The only way to account for such #'s is for StarFleet's actual Active Service Member #'s and StarShip #'s to be that vast.
Given how large the UFP is and how much territory / Man Power it should have.
Those #'s would be easily do-able with a very large Multi-Species organization like StarFleet drawing servicemen from all their member worlds.
154x Member Species of the UFP as of 2380
For reference, here's Earth in the present time.
https://tradingeconomics.com/world/armed-forces-personnel-total-wb-data.html
At least 27,671,000 members of the armed services in total on Earth in 2019 with such a tiny global population of ~ 7.5 Billion people.
Only ~0.368946…% of the Population serves in the military on Earth at that time.
Given StarFleet's popularity, I wouldn't be surprised if 1-2% of every member species population of the UFP's would want to be part of StarFleet. Given WAY more than 10 Billion people per species estimate for easy math sake. It'd probably be way higher in reality due to advanced resource economics and abundance. That's easily 100,000,000 - 200,000,000 people from each Member Species of the UFP joining StarFleet.
So multiply that by an average of 154x Member species:
At least (15,400,000,000 - 30,800,000,000) Service members in StarFleet or whatever UFP considers it's equivalent Armed Forces.
So fielding at least 4,294,967,296 StarShips worth of man power split across 154 species & Multiple Star Systems with multiple Orbital Factories in each Member Species Star Systems to pump out ships is very realistic IMO.
That leaves about 27,889,398 StarShips per Member Species (154x Members as of 2380) to manufacture and maintain.
This is not even counting StarBases & Planetary Bases along with the Logistics train that all needs to be created to support such a vast endeavor like StarFleet.
Given StarFleet is the BackBone for UFP political enforcement of will and Scientific/Diplomatic Exploration along with Military Defense.
Remember, most of the manufacturing would largely be Automated via Replicators & Robots.
Like the way most Auto Manufacturing is largely automated with minor fit & finish done by people.
Pumping out StarShip designs in the Millions/Billions would be trivial for StarFleet.
Especially when they were fighting a war of attrition against the Dominions vast #'s and needing to replace man power and ships on a weekly basis due to massive casualties.
Because using proper planning of allocation and training and operational tempo, only about 2/3-3/4th of the total fleet will be out and about while some significant fraction of the entire fleet will be in for repairs, refit, upgrades along with training of the crew and validating entire systems of repaired or upgraded ships.
That's probably why StarFleet has a huge bureaucracy with ALOT of Flag Officers all over the place.
Especially given how many Fleets of Ships were operated during the Dominion War and countless ships were getting masacred on a weekly basis along with their crews.
The only way to account for such #'s is for StarFleet's actual Active Service Member #'s and StarShip #'s to be that vast.
I think the long-held prevalent thought during TOS was that a starship was a special type of vessel, separate from cruisers, freighters, frigates, etc., and that they were limited in number like how today's aircraft carriers are. They're the big guns of the fleet, but most of the fleet is comprised of smaller vessels. In TMP, when then Admiral Kirk claimed that the Enterprise was the only starship in range of intercepting V'Ger, he didn't mean she was the only Starfleet ship period in range--just the only ship of the starship classification. There were likely plenty of cruisers and frigates between V'Ger and Earth, but only one of the larger starship type.
These days, however, pretty much every warp-capable vessel can be considered a starship. Likely beginning with TNG, starship became a more generic term for any interstellar vehicle too big to be a shuttlecraft.
These days, however, pretty much every warp-capable vessel can be considered a starship. Likely beginning with TNG, starship became a more generic term for any interstellar vehicle too big to be a shuttlecraft.
I think you're over thinking the term "StarShip".
StarShip just means your vessel is capable of FTL and getting between Star Systems in a reasonable amount of time.
Not wasting a significant chunk of your life just to go to the nearest close-by Star System from the Star System you were at.
During the TOS era, there might have been a significant amount of STL ships puttering around in the local Star System. But by the 24th century, even the crappiest of Shuttles were capable of FTL.
Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if your average LifeBoat / Escape Pod would be capable of FTL.
FTL travel will become so ubiquitous, that it's like the AutoMobile, it's everywhere.
But we'll call it the "AstroMobile" =D, because it's designed to operate in space.
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Nope. That's just how it was during TOS. A starship was considered by and large a special type of vessel back then and was separate class of its own from other ships in the fleet. Heck, even Scotty said as much when he appeared in TNG's "Relics."
SCOTTY: You know, I served aboard eleven ships. Freighters, cruisers, starships...
That idea came later in Trek, particularly from TNG onwards. Now, if you want to talk about the term outside of Trek, that's a different subject altogether that should be in the Sci-fi & Fantasy Forum.
So the definitions changed by the 24th century.
It would explain comments like "the only starship in range" if the term was more exclusive in the 23rd-Century.
FYI, @Lordcommanderdarkwolf, a relatively recent thread in this forum explored basically the same topic.
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/how-many-ship-class-does-starfleet-need.314168/
Perhaps a moderator could merge them if that would suit the extended discussion.
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/how-many-ship-class-does-starfleet-need.314168/
Perhaps a moderator could merge them if that would suit the extended discussion.
Early TNG used naval designations for starships, such as "cruiser," "light cruiser," "frigate," etc. But after the first few seasons that went away. Starships were just starships no matter what they looked like or what function they performed.
As it should be.
"Cruiser" / "Light Cruiser" / "Frigate" all fall in Combat Designations and only matter if you care about a ships Combat Role.
StarShip only indicates a ships usefulness as to how far it's expected to travel.
Ergo, traveling between Star Systems.
good idea
In one sense, the six classes that Sternbach identified are all that the show needs: Explorer, cruiser, cargo-carrier, tanker, survey or and scout.
However, what we saw onscreen were actually many ships of different generations because of the re-use of models. I suspect that any generation of ship could have just these six classes, but as ships stay in service while newer generations come out, we end up having many classes in service. So really the word "class" gets used in two ways:
1. A specific design with a name and very similar ships. "Excelsior-class" has a distinct meaning and refers to just one type of ships that all look similar.
2. A type of of ship role, of the sort Sternbach identified, but of various generations. The Constitution class, Constitution-refit (Enterprise), and Ambassador are all identified as cruisers but are not the same exact design. A better but less strictly canon example would be the Miranda, Centaur, Nebula and Akira, which all have a similar layout and seem to have similar roles, but are from different years in-universe. There is also the Oberth, "3-nacelled Excelsior variant," Springfield, and Steamrunner class, that all have a similar layout, but look like they are from different years.
It is also possible Starfleet likes to keep newer ships far out in space, and newer builds of older designs get assigned close to established territory. NCC-1701 was patrolling unexplored space, but perhaps if 1764 was really the Defiant's number, it was assigned to patrol close to bases.
This makes sense; it would, however be a third usage of the word "class," relating to my usage number 1 (specific design), this new usage being an overarching family of designs including other smaller classes.
See above.
The above number of millions of ships if one is to include smaller ships used essentially for policing, runabouts, small scouts, etc., seems somewhat possible, but in TOS, Starships were "special" in some way, so I would suggest fewer of them. Perhaps Starfleet does not operate all these millions of ships and there are smaller organizations that do, leaving only a few "special" ones: "Starfleet Ships", which gets shortened to "starship," and does not mean the traditional usage, that being a ship that can travel to the stars. In TNG it seems that there are a lot more Starfleet ships and that they are all called "starships."
However, what we saw onscreen were actually many ships of different generations because of the re-use of models. I suspect that any generation of ship could have just these six classes, but as ships stay in service while newer generations come out, we end up having many classes in service. So really the word "class" gets used in two ways:
1. A specific design with a name and very similar ships. "Excelsior-class" has a distinct meaning and refers to just one type of ships that all look similar.
2. A type of of ship role, of the sort Sternbach identified, but of various generations. The Constitution class, Constitution-refit (Enterprise), and Ambassador are all identified as cruisers but are not the same exact design. A better but less strictly canon example would be the Miranda, Centaur, Nebula and Akira, which all have a similar layout and seem to have similar roles, but are from different years in-universe. There is also the Oberth, "3-nacelled Excelsior variant," Springfield, and Steamrunner class, that all have a similar layout, but look like they are from different years.
It is also possible Starfleet likes to keep newer ships far out in space, and newer builds of older designs get assigned close to established territory. NCC-1701 was patrolling unexplored space, but perhaps if 1764 was really the Defiant's number, it was assigned to patrol close to bases.
This makes sense; it would, however be a third usage of the word "class," relating to my usage number 1 (specific design), this new usage being an overarching family of designs including other smaller classes.
See above.
The above number of millions of ships if one is to include smaller ships used essentially for policing, runabouts, small scouts, etc., seems somewhat possible, but in TOS, Starships were "special" in some way, so I would suggest fewer of them. Perhaps Starfleet does not operate all these millions of ships and there are smaller organizations that do, leaving only a few "special" ones: "Starfleet Ships", which gets shortened to "starship," and does not mean the traditional usage, that being a ship that can travel to the stars. In TNG it seems that there are a lot more Starfleet ships and that they are all called "starships."
I feel like Starfleet doesn't need too many. Just enough to fill all the different niches (combat, transportation, research, etc)
I do believe we need to see more non-Human Federation designs. In all of ST I recall only one Vulcan Federation ship and one Trill ship (reuse of pakled ship model iirc). I don't remember seeing a Bolian, Andorian or Tellarite ship in the Federation proper.
I do believe we need to see more non-Human Federation designs. In all of ST I recall only one Vulcan Federation ship and one Trill ship (reuse of pakled ship model iirc). I don't remember seeing a Bolian, Andorian or Tellarite ship in the Federation proper.
Perhaps, as we go through Strange New Worlds, we may see why there are so few Starships in the late 2260s. In addition to the fallout from the Klingon War (and any problem with Control/Section 31) and if there is also a major war with the Gorn, a number of starships could be lost. This would leave Starfleet relatively sparse when the Romulas reappear. As we saw, if it was Pike and not Kirk at that decicive moment, the Second Romulan War would have been worse and drawn out. But the Enterprise managed to stop that war, and via the Organian, stop another Klingon War. And come to a truce with the Gorn, while avoiding a conflict with the Tholians. Sure tensions with the Klingons remained, but Starfleet seemed to have bounced back somewhat by the 2280s and 90s. Though I doubt they fully recovered from all that until they started building lots of Miranda and Excelsior style ships which would fill out the fleet until the Dominion War.
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