Greatest Athletes?

[wew]

Of course you'd have Rocky Marciano and Jack Johnson in boxing. Both dominated during their eras. In fact Johnson had an unbelievable number of boxing matches in a 3 year period, something like 20+ matches with something like 1 loss.

Overall, Jim Thorpe pretty much takes the cake in terms of total athleticism.

 

[PlainSimpleJoel]

With Cricket - it would be Bradman.

Rugby League - probably Clive Churchill.

 

[Roger Wilco]

I think in certain sports certain positions are so fundamentally different that you can't name a best single player. In Hockey there should be a separate category for goalies. In baseball a separate category for pitchers. In football things are so specialized I don't think you can compare offense to defense, lineman to backfield, rushers/receivers to quarterbacks.

In football/soccer too, although it's usually the forwards or offensive midfielders who get all the glory.

 

[JM1776]

I don't think they would have done it without Russell, but I also don't think they would have done it without Bob Cousy, KC Jones, Sam Jones, Johnny Havlechek, Dave Cowens, etc.

We disagree there. Russell was, in my opinion, the most (and the only) absolutely indispensible player on those Celtics teams. Any one of the others, despite their greatness, could have been replaced, though not easily. Not so Russell. As evidence for this, note that the Celts went 34-48 and missed the playoffs for the first time since the 40's in the year after his retirement.

It's also, from where I sit, unjustifiable to say that a five-time NBA MVP winner (one more, I note, than Chamberlain, as many as Jordan and one less than Jabbar) and 12-time All Star is not fit to be mentioned in the same breath as even Chamberlain or Jordan. I'd even go so far as to say it's laughable.

The guy who plays awesome defense is never as sexy a pick as the offensive machine. Russell was never "the man" in the Celts' attack, as Chamberlain was for so many of the teams he played on.

I'm not denying Chamberlain's obvious right to a seat at the table for the conversation "Greatest Ever." Oscar Robertson, Wilt, MJ and Russell all have their supporters ... and rightly so.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Who was still on the Celtics when he retired? How old were they? I can't remember, but did he retire as a coach when he retired as a player or was he still a coach? If he retired as a coach, that's another factor. You can't just point to his retiring as the only factor that happened.

Also, I'll go further and say Wilt Chamberlain was almost as good a defensive player as Bill Russell (hard to categorize if he was better, people have made that claim, but that's obviously not the consensus).

 

[gblews]

It's also, from where I sit, unjustifiable to say that a five-time NBA MVP winner (one more, I note, than Chamberlain, as many as Jordan and one less than Jabbar) and 12-time All Star is not fit to be mentioned in the same breath as even Chamberlain or Jordan. I'd even go so far as to say it's laughable.

You seem to be creating a straw man argument here, if I am understanding you. I don't believe anyone has stated that Russell should not be mentioned "in the same breath" as Chamberlain and Jordan, so no point in arguing that such a claim is 'laughable'.

What has been said is that Chamberlain by his utter domination of the NBA in nearly every meaningful statistical category except number of championships in the 50's and 60's, is the much better choice as best basketball player of all time. The Celts were the most dominant team in the 50's and 60's, and if the question ever comes up as to who was the best team in NBA history, the C's MIGHT get the nod. However, Chamberlain was the most dominant individual player of his, and pretty much every other, NBA generation.

All-star selections mean something, but because back then the sports writers selected the teams, they are trumped by the much more tangible statistical categories that Chamberlain owned for most of his and Russell's time in the NBA.

BTW, Abdul-Jabbar is might also be a better choice than Russell.

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

It's also, from where I sit, unjustifiable to say that a five-time NBA MVP winner (one more, I note, than Chamberlain, as many as Jordan and one less than Jabbar) and 12-time All Star is not fit to be mentioned in the same breath as even Chamberlain or Jordan. I'd even go so far as to say it's laughable.


Also remember though in those days the MVP was chosen by the players themselves. There might have been a bias toward Russell and against Chamberlain. Chamberlain always said nobody roots for Goliath and his fellow players might have been a bit resentful over a player that was just too dominate against the rest of the league. Russell accomplished the ultimate feat players strive for, winning a championship, and did it being perceived as an unselfish part of a unit.

 

[Obiwanshinobi]

in a couple of years, I'd say some of MMA's current roster of fighters, in their respective weight classes guys like BJ Penn, George St. Pierre, Anderson Silva, Miguel Torres, Urijah Faber, Lyoto Machida (i know, i know), among many others, like the names listed above, could go down as GOAT. well Ken Shamrock is a toss-up in this day and age, the longer he keeps fighting, the more his legacy diminishes. He like Royce will always be the pioneers of the sport. But it was a different time back then. And Royce had the smarts to hang it up after his man handling from Matt Hughes. Chuck, Randy, especially Fedor do belong on that list though. You can say what you want about Chuck especially as of late. Him being one dimensional has finally caught up to him, but you got to give the man has his dues he went on a major tear in the sport. It's just Quinton Jackson, Rashad Evans and now shogun are his kryptonite. His chin isn't the same anymore. Hell I'm surprised Wanderlei wasn't able to K.O him during that fight. Randy on the other hand, at his age can still hang, because his style allows it too, more so than Chuck's style does in today's MMA. And as for Fedor, despite the one blemish on his record and his latest loss in a Sambo tournament, absolutely BELONGS to be on a list for GOAT.

 

[JM1776]

You seem to be creating a straw man argument here, if I am understanding you.

Not at all.

I inferred from what I've read here is that Russell shouldn't even be considered in light of Chamberlain's accomplishments. I'm not buyin' that for an instant.

Also remember though in those days the MVP was chosen by the players themselves. There might have been a bias toward Russell and against Chamberlain.

Alternately, their choice might have been more accurate, since they may well have understood the game more fundamentally than anyone who'd never played it at that level.

 

[gblews]

You seem to be creating a straw man argument here, if I am understanding you.

Not at all.

I inferred from what I've read here is that Russell shouldn't even be considered in light of Chamberlain's accomplishments.

Yes, I know. That's what creating a straw man argument entails, inferring or creating an argument based on a position or argument that has not been stated.

The easier argument to make is that Russell, a great player by anyone's standards, at least deserves to be in an argument about the greatest player in basketball history. The more difficult argument is that Russell actually was greatest player in basketball history.

The reason that argument is so difficult is because Wilt's records stand for themselves. Russell on the other hand, has only his championships to stand on by comparison. Nothing to sneeze at of course, but as has been pointed out, those championships were won by Russell's teams, coaches, and Celts organization, not just Russell.

The argument at hand is who is the best player in basketball history, not whether or not Russell even deserves to be in the discussion. That is your straw man argument.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Yeah, the question here is greatest athletes. There's no real point in arguing who should be considered, but who is.

 

[SomniumRabidum]

in a couple of years, I'd say some of MMA's current roster of fighters, in their respective weight classes guys like BJ Penn, George St. Pierre, Anderson Silva, Miguel Torres, Urijah Faber, Lyoto Machida (i know, i know), among many others, like the names listed above, could go down as GOAT. well Ken Shamrock is a toss-up in this day and age, the longer he keeps fighting, the more his legacy diminishes. He like Royce will always be the pioneers of the sport. But it was a different time back then. And Royce had the smarts to hang it up after his man handling from Matt Hughes. Chuck, Randy, especially Fedor do belong on that list though. You can say what you want about Chuck especially as of late. Him being one dimensional has finally caught up to him, but you got to give the man has his dues he went on a major tear in the sport. It's just Quinton Jackson, Rashad Evans and now shogun are his kryptonite. His chin isn't the same anymore. Hell I'm surprised Wanderlei wasn't able to K.O him during that fight. Randy on the other hand, at his age can still hang, because his style allows it too, more so than Chuck's style does in today's MMA. And as for Fedor, despite the one blemish on his record and his latest loss in a Sambo tournament, absolutely BELONGS to be on a list for GOAT.

Fedor IS the GOAT, period. Arguing 2-5 is fun and all, but #1 is not up for debate.

Fedor's only blemish came from what should have been a NC. It was the opening round of a tournament and Fedor was cut with an illegal elbow mere seconds into the fight, stopping the fight. It would've been ruled a NC, but someone had to advance to the next round and fight again that night so Koshaka was given the victory. Fedor later avenged this "loss" with a 1:43 TKO.

GSP is making a case for being considered a candidate for GOAT, but he's still got a ways to go.

Anderson Silva can never take the top spot. Too many holes, and a couple too many losses to fighters he had no business losing to.

BJ Penn can't be the GOAT either, that's just ridiculous. He COULD HAVE BEEN, if he had taken his career seriously and spent more time training and less time surfing, but he didn't. He's tainted his career too many times and made too many mistakes to ever be considered the GOAT. If we're arguing over who has the most natural talent, that's a different story.

Lyoto Machida certainly has a chance to be the GOAT, but it's far too early to make a real guess as to whether or not he'll maintain his recent dominance. I'm a huge Machida fan, so I hope he continues to improve.

 

[Davros]

John Elway