Gorn and Federation - First Contact?

[Odo]

Had a question Treksperts!

Is Arena the first encounter between a human and a Gorn? I can't find the dialogue that supports that. It seems that the Gorn Hegemony and the Federation had been clashing for sometime. Any other indication of what their relationship was like before Arena?

Thanks in advance!

 

[XCV330]

Had a question Treksperts!

Is Arena the first encounter between a human and a Gorn? I can't find the dialogue that supports that. It seems that the Gorn Hegemony and the Federation had been clashing for sometime. Any other indication of what their relationship was like before Arena?

Thanks in advance!

Captain Archer heard of the Gorn from the Orions, IIRC, so Earth knew of them early, and if they did, it is pretty obvious the other older members of the Federation did as well. Knowing of them doesn't imply direct contact, of course.

In the Kelvin Unverse McCoy bragged about delivering Gorn babies, and that would have been before 2259.

Captain Lorca had a Gorn skeleton in his room of horrors in 2256. It all implies there was at least some general knowledge of the Gorn, even if there was no formal diplomatic involvement.

 

[Noname Given]

Had a question Treksperts!

Is Arena the first encounter between a human and a Gorn? I can't find the dialogue that supports that. It seems that the Gorn Hegemony and the Federation had been clashing for sometime. Any other indication of what their relationship was like before Arena?

Thanks in advance!

TOS Season 1 "Arena" was in fact the first encounter between the Federation and the Gorn.

Kirk didn't even know the name of the species until the metron's intervened and stated to Kirk and company that it was a Gorn ship they had been pursuing.

As for the person up above who mentioned that Lorca had a Gorn skeleton (which he did); you have to remember that that Lorca came from the Mirror Universe; and in the Mirror Universe, it's also known that the Terran Empire, started exploring their universe, and conquered more species, then the United Earth Space Probe Agency in the prime universe, my point being that MU Lorca probably had more information than your average Starfleet officer of the prime Universe; and knew about the Gorn, Even though the prime universe Federation at that time did not.

 

[Pauln6]

I don't think the fact that Kirk didn't recognise the ship configuration or couldn't automatically recognise the species visually (the Gorn in Enterprise looked nothing like) means that the Federation knew absolutely nothing about them but with decades between each encounter, it's unlikely that every Starfleet officer would be forearmed with such knowledge.

 

[Timo]

Yes. That Kirk wouldn't recognize the name of the species is hardly evidence that the Federation was unaware of the name. In a universe like Trek's, there are likely to be a hundred species Kirk has never heard of but many others in Starfleet have.

That Spock would then rush to check the databases for species named Gorn that look like lizard-housefly hybrids is neither here nor there. Spock would do that, yes, and gain access to all the things the UFP knew about the Gorn, but then what? He couldn't relay his findings to Kirk or anything.

Yet what is First Contact? In "Move Along Home", the fact that some Vulcans met the Wadi for the first time was not First Contact. The fact that some Bajorans then gave them a ride to DS9 was not First Contact. Only Sisko shaking hands while wearing a dress uniform was supposed to be First Contact.

I'd rather argue that First Contact with the Gorn came much later than "Arena", which obviously doesn't count because Kirk was dressed wrong and never shook any hands, much less exchanged pleasantries.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Pauln6]

Yes. That Kirk wouldn't recognize the name of the species is hardly evidence that the Federation was unaware of the name. In a universe like Trek's, there are likely to be a hundred species Kirk has never heard of but many others in Starfleet have.

That Spock would then rush to check the databases for species named Gorn that look like lizard-housefly hybrids is neither here nor there. Spock would do that, yes, and gain access to all the things the UFP knew about the Gorn, but then what? He couldn't relay his findings to Kirk or anything.

Yet what is First Contact? In "Move Along Home", the fact that some Vulcans met the Wadi for the first time was not First Contact. The fact that some Bajorans then gave them a ride to DS9 was not First Contact. Only Sisko shaking hands while wearing a dress uniform was supposed to be First Contact.

I'd rather argue that First Contact with the Gorn came much later than "Arena", which obviously doesn't count because Kirk was dressed wrong and never shook any hands, much less exchanged pleasantries.

Timo Saloniemi

I think first contact was actually Kirk-Fu to the voonerables.

 

[Herbert]

This is one of the problems inherent when you make a series like Enterprise (and I suppose Discovery too although I haven't watched it yet) that takes place before TOS. There is no attempt to make everything fit together with what came before and then you have arguments. Arena is the official first contact, although I'm sure some writer will come along in the future and retcon that.

 

[Pauln6]

This is one of the problems inherent when you make a series like Enterprise (and I suppose Discovery too although I haven't watched it yet) that takes place before TOS. There is no attempt to make everything fit together with what came before and then you have arguments. Arena is the official first contact, although I'm sure some writer will come along in the future and retcon that.

I think they had the excuse that they never realised anybody would be paying attention in the early days. That excuse is long gone. But the writers can just check the Trekcore wiki. The fans are doing the hard work.

 

[Dukhat]

Spoiler

Book mentions the Gorn to Burnham, and she acts like she knows who they are. Burnham, who came from a time 12 years before Kirk's encounter with them.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Unless the Gorn made first contact with the Federation several years before TOS, as suggested in the Kelvinverse (and we know how the timeline is different there), then yes it is.

 

[Noname Given]

Spoiler

Book mentions the Gorn to Burnham, and she acts like she knows who they are. Burnham, who came from a time 12 years before Kirk's encounter with them.

Spoiler

Idk - she just repeated: "The Gorn did what?" IE - It didn't come across to me that she was necessarily aware what/who the Gorn were; It sounded like she was more surprised whatever they did destroyed two light years worth of subspace.

 

[Dukhat]

Spoiler

Idk - she just repeated: "The Gorn did what?" IE - It didn't come across to me that she was necessarily aware what/who the Gorn were; It sounded like she was more surprised whatever they did destroyed two light years worth of subspace.

Spoiler

Yes, it’s all about context. And in the context I see, Burnham knew who the Gorn were. Because if she didn’t, the correct response would have been, "Who are the Gorn?," not “The Gorn did what?”

 

[Odo]

Thanks for the responses!

Personally, I don't think that either Enterprise or Disco's references to the Gorn retcon what we saw in TOS in any way. It was either Mirror Universe related, or an offhand comment that doesn't imply the hearer knows who they are or that Starfleet will remember them.

Spoiler

As for Disco season three, I don't think Burnham's comment suggests she definitely knows them. But, if it did, that could possibly be explained by her having access to Lorca's private lab on the Discovery after he was gone.

 

[Noname Given]

Thanks for the responses!

Personally, I don't think that either Enterprise or Disco's references to the Gorn retcon what we saw in TOS in any way. It was either Mirror Universe related, or an offhand comment that doesn't imply the hearer knows who they are or that Starfleet will remember them.

Spoiler

As for Disco season three, I don't think Burnham's comment suggests she definitely knows them. But, if it did, that could possibly be explained by her having access to Lorca's private lab on the Discovery after he was gone.

Well the one thing to remember about the Gorn as presented in TOS - "Arena" was that the Gorn amassed a lot of intelligence. Remember in the opening sequence that they somehow faked a completely personal message to James Kirk while he was preparing to beam down. The message made it appear he was talking directly to an old friend. then they beam down to find out the base has been completely destroyed. Once they're back aboard the Enterprise; The survivor informs them the base was hit and destroyed two full days before the Enterprise arrived there. The guard also used the normal approach rate and came in at "space normal speed".

The Going set up the ambush to test Federation military capability on the ground. So again they seem to have amassed a great deal of intelligence on the Federation prior to the attack on Cestus III.

My point? Maybe there could have been other contacts where Federation intelligence had gleaned some information but either didn't have enough or didn't feel it worth disseminating until they had more.

 

[Timo]

This First Contact business in general is likely to be fuzzy. On one hand, odds that our heroes would really be the first to meet some peers of theirs are really low: everybody is meeting everybody anyway, regardless of whether for a philosophy of exploration or exploitation, diplomacy or conquest. On the other, since the meetings are likely to be so ubiquitous, the signal is very likely to be lost in the noise.

Also, no single hero can be expected to have all the contacts, bits of intel and odd rumors memorized: even Spock's capacity is limited, and Data while supposedly more capable is slow on the recall. And of course Tilly did once remark on the distinction between the databases and the secret databases... Governments won't hold a monopoly to the contacts, but they may very well choose to hold those cards close to their chests.

The Gorn aren't exceptionally capable of secrecy, but they do seem to be shady characters who wouldn't bask in the heat of publicity, cold-blooded or not. Much like the Ferengi, they could be everywhere but go largely unnoticed or unrecognized. Or then they aren't quite everywhere, perhaps being territorial rather than intrusive. Options certainly abound.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[johnnybear]

In Arena it is self evident that Kirk and the Enterprise crew have never heard of the Gorn before! Also the fact that Kirk is reviled by his reptillian adversary shows that if Starfleet had of known of them then Kirk would have been the first in line to look them up! Things written for Enterprise & Discovery are not to be trusted as they are both set in alternative timelines by people who have no real understanding of the original series!
JB

 

[Timo]

Blah. It would be utterly unrealistic for Kirk to recognize every one of the million species polluting the Trek galaxy. Even if a good ten thousand of them were perfectly well known to the Federation, and a thousand were on Starfleet's Most Unwanted list, Kirk's knowledge of those would still be limited by his capacity. Heck, he didn't even know pertinent facts about the Romulans, having to ask Spock to cover for him, and then Stiles knew more than Spock!

And nobody had any opportunity to "look up" anything after the Gorn skipper was first spotted. The crew was out of the picture, and even if McCoy had delivered a bunch of Gorn babies and some Ensign down on the lower decks had attended a Gorn wedding, there's be no way to bring those facts into the attention of Kirk or the audience.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

Spoiler

If Burnham knew about the Gorn 12 years before ‘Arena,’ Kirk would have had plenty of time to learn about an aggressive alien species possibly hostile to the Federation.

 

[Timo]

Is there any other sort?

And no, she doesn't know 12 years in advance. More like 920 years afterwards.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

Is there any other sort?

And no, she doesn't know 12 years in advance. More like 920 years afterwards.

Nope. She already knew without anyone having to explain it to her.