Fair Haven and Janeway's holographic boyfriend

[borgboy]

I thought it was strange that Fair Haven disapeared from the show the way it did. I also thought it odd that Janeway was presumably having a seriou srelaionship with a hologram that we saw so little of. I think it was strange that Janeway was willing to have the relationship with the hologram go on as long as it did, it just doesn't seem like her to take the easy way out by having a man she could turn off, even if the compromise would make her happy.
It seems like there should have been an episode dealing with Janeway breaking up with the bf. Does any of this get mentioned in the novels?
I know Tom's French bar also was dropped, but I didn't care for it anyways. I think everybody in the French bar was too slick and easy to be likable, although I do realise that they were based on Tom's memory of the place and his own personality probbaly played a big part in shaping the place. A funny post series moment ( in the novels I guess) could have someone shocked at how different some of the people there are from Tom's holographic versions of them ,such as the woman bartender/owner not being quite as easy as Tom made her seem; maybe she was just easy for Tom

 

[Timewalker]

There is a somewhat poignant scene in the first post-Endgame novel (by Christie Golden?) that addresses the issue of the crew's various holographic adventures, friends, and such.

Janeway gathers the crew together and informs them that Starfleet will soon be over the ship with the proverbial fine-tooth comb, and would of course include the holographic files -- some of which are very personal.

Janeway gives the crew permission to delete any of their personal programs they may find embarrasing. She herself bids a sad farewell to her Irish poet/bartender from Fairhaven, telling him she's come to the end of her journey, and she's home. He realizes they can't be together any longer and she is saying "goodbye"...

Not sure about Sandrine's -- isn't there a law, or at least a strong taboo, against creating holo-replicas of real-live people?

 

[Timo]

...isn't there a law, or at least a strong taboo, against creating holo-replicas of real-live people?

Not a law, since neither LaForge nor Barclay was prosecuted for their likenesses of Leah Brahms, Deanna Troi, Will Riker etc.

Perhaps a taboo. But not a very strong one, as long as the holoperson and his or her inspiration don't cross paths: there was apparently nothing odd or out of the social norm about LaForge creating the original holo-Brahms, at least.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timewalker]

...isn't there a law, or at least a strong taboo, against creating holo-replicas of real-live people?

Not a law, since neither LaForge nor Barclay was prosecuted for their likenesses of Leah Brahms, Deanna Troi, Will Riker etc.

Perhaps a taboo. But not a very strong one, as long as the holoperson and his or her inspiration don't cross paths: there was apparently nothing odd or out of the social norm about LaForge creating the original holo-Brahms, at least.

Timo Saloniemi

That's not what Leah Brahms thought. She was extremely angry, started accusing Geordi of creating a holodeck version of her for some personal fantasy fulfillment, and said she felt violated.

 

[Deckerd]

The holodeck episodes of Voyager really demonstrated what an absolute waste of time the whole idea of 'holo-environments' were. Why invent a world where a spaceship is exploring unknown regions of the galaxy and then have the crew cavorting around an Oirish village or Parisian bar? Or Beowulf. God I hated that one too.

 

[Timo]

...she felt violated.

But apparently nobody cared. That is, there wasn't any hint that LaForge would have felt ashamed or in violation of a taboo in activating the Brahms simulation in the first place in "Booby Trap", or that he would have feared exposure (to Picard or Riker or Troi or somebody else non-Brahms, that is).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Triskelion]

^ Right, he just got caught.

She just jumped to conclusions and assumed that it was only one of his many love session files. And she probably should have seen this coming, had she been interviewed by Jupiter Station Holo developers in order to base a holo on her (remember how extensive Dr Bashir's background checks & interviews were)? She had to know there was a good chance her holo would be consulted - and the program was based on her personality when it said, "I'll be with you every day, Geordi; when you're looking at the engines, you're looking at me" etc. A simple check could reveal whether Geordi altered the personality subroutines for personal jollies.

And even then? It's like reading someone's diary and arguing about it. The argument is null and void, because the privacy violation supercedes the content accusations. Ok, maybe it wasn't private, since it was ship's business. But it's not like they did anything. It was a kiss. Give me a break, it's not the holy arc of the covenant. Lighten up!

Brahms gave up a certain amount of control when she conceded to being a holo model in the first place. She had to know someone could possibly, at some point, maybe touch it, or heaven forfend, connect with it. I mean, she'd been around the block, hadn't she?

 

[borgboy]

My impression of the Leah hologram issue wasn't so much that LaForge had made a working version of her, but that he had developed such an intimate rapport with her hologram. I can understand how that would make her feel violated.
I am currently reading thru Star Trek novels from the past few years, just finished Gateways, so the relaunch is coming up soon. I do appreciate the info on the relaunch novels, nice to know that will be addressed. I 'm glad the holographic characters, especially Janeway's bf, get some closure.
As for Sandrine's, didn't Harry Kim meet AU versions of the Sandrine's crowd when he went there looking for the AU Tom Paris? I watched this just a few weeks ago but I don't remember!
Given how the Doctor is accepted more and more as a sentient being by the crew, I found their holographic adventures to have a lot of moral questionability. The holograms were at least potentially sentient, yet the crew largely used them for playthings. I would think the rise of holographic sentience would put an end to using holograms for amusement.

 

[Timo]

To be sure, there must be different levels of detail when holo'ing a person. Just because Bashir had to go through a lot of hoops to become a holographic medical practitioner doesn't mean that Brahms, a dealer in inanimate objects and abstract magic, would have required detailed analysis and recording of her personality quirks. Hell, Quark in "Meridian" showed us that all you really need is a holocamera and a few good shots (plus some writing skills for the personality, I guess).

...Which never really made sense. If Quark's customer wanted a sex doll, surely Kira's outward appearance would already have been on visual record in a zillion places not jealously guarded by Starfleet or Bajoran military forces. Quark could even have gotten the measurements from those times Kira utilized his holosuites (although that apparently wasn't often). If he was missing something strategic, like nude shots, it's not as if his handheld camera could have provided the necessary material anyway.

Clearly, though, it's not illegal or frowned upon to make holographic live recordings of people or scenery without explicit consent, and then proceed with (noncommercial) applications based on the recordings.

I would think the rise of holographic sentience would put an end to using holograms for amusement.

That would mean ignoring the deeper issue here: that sentiences in the 24th century are definitely not "created alike", but that they come in degrees. One shouldn't blithely ignore the fact that there are nonsentient holograms in addition to sentient and potentially sentient ones. And one certainly shouldn't fall into the trap of giving holograms "human rights". That sort of racism doesn't work even with Vulcans, who absolutely require the right to commit murder every now and then for biological reasons.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kimc]

Brahms gave up a certain amount of control when she conceded to being a holo model in the first place. She had to know someone could possibly, at some point, maybe touch it, or heaven forfend, connect with it. I mean, she'd been around the block, hadn't she?

Did she concede to being a holo model? After all, medical records, etc are part of the ship's database so it's possible to create a hologram of anyone you want. This is how Seven made a holgram of Chakotay and how Barclay made holograms of the TNG crew.

I can see how having someone make a holgram of you can make you feel violated - especially if they take the liberty of programming it to behave as you would never behave. The violation of privacy implications are ones I find quite frightening. Then there's the mental health issues of the person creating the holograms instead of interacting with real people...

 

[Triskelion]

You know, that's an interesting example. Chakotay, as first officer, may very well have been aware of Seven's holodeck programs; he would have been within his purview to pry, as she had already shown negligence in her duties; not to mention her special case assimilating into humanity. He said something to her that could be interpreted as him being aware of it (sorry, can't remember the context). If he had seen her holoprogram, and his smooth-operating simulacrum - his was a polar opposite reaction to that of Brahms, who witnessed little more than a kiss. A goodbye kiss.

Now, which was the violation - if any?

 

[kimc]

You know, that's an interesting example. Chakotay, as first officer, may very well have been aware of Seven's holodeck programs; he would have been within his purview to pry, as she had already shown negligence in her duties; not to mention her special case assimilating into humanity. He said something to her that could be interpreted as him being aware of it (sorry, can't remember the context). If he had seen her holoprogram, and his smooth-operating simulacrum - his was a polar opposite reaction to that of Brahms, who witnessed little more than a kiss. A goodbye kiss.

Now, which was the violation - if any?

Given the historical reaction of other Trek characters who were re-created as holograms plus the fact that he's a private man I doubt he would have been pleased had he known about it. The episode "One" showed the Doctor working with Seven to improve her social skills using holograms of the senior staff but it sounds like Seven added her own extra programming to the Chakotay hologram. Also, she took great pains to hide what she was doing from the rest of the crew.

 

[borgboy]

I don't remember anything that Chakotay was aware of Seven 's hologram of him, but maybe it went over my head.
I did think it was weird how shocking how itimate Seven was with the hologram. It can even be implied she had sex with him, losing her virginity to a hologram ( Assuming the virtual sex she had in Unimatrix One but didn't remember doesn't count). Compare the more compassionate tone of how Seven's story was told with the way Barkely was looked at in TNG with his holographic relationships.

 

[Timewalker]

One reason Leah Brahms had a more negative reaction to what Geordi did was because she is married. So to her it was not only Geordi taking unwanted liberties with her, but it was her cheating on her husband without her permission.

As for Seven and Chakotay... honestly, when I first saw their dating stuff in "Endgame" I thought it was just another of Seven's holodeck programs. It would have been nice if that's when Chakotay had walked in and found out... they would have discussed it, and each learned something from the experience. Chakotay (still pining for Janeway at the time, according to the fanfic ) would have learned that Seven considers him an attractive man and potential mate. And Seven would have learned that there are boundaries in Federation society she must not cross, as they are an invasion of privacy. After that, they can explore the question of whether or not they want to try having a date. I thought the long-distance dating advice Neelix was giving her was just silly.

 

[carriefox]

I never cared that much for the fairhaven episodes. The writer's made the holodeck character's look really stuped. What was so wrong with Janeway's boyfriend. It felt that Janeway was being a snob for changing him.

 

[borgboy]

Janeway was a snob to change him, but that's part of why I thought that the whole thing was weird. It seems out of character for Janeway to get involved with a man she can change at a whim.
It would be seductive to be able to have your own perfect holographic bf, that you can edit as you please.

 

[Timewalker]

Janeway realized this and told the computer not to allow her to make any more changes.

 

[kimc]

Compare the more compassionate tone of how Seven's story was told with the way Barkely was looked at in TNG with his holographic relationships.

True, when Barclay did it there were consequences. However, with Seven the writers seemed more concerned with showing Seven "as you always wanted to see her" (gee, which demographic were they shooting for ) than in telling a story with a resolution.

 

[JM1776]

As I've said before ... perhaps the three most chilling words in Voyager history:

"Delete the wife."

 

[Captain Proton]

I don't get how easily Paris convinced Tuvok to create a holo of his wife...Tuvok figured it would be cheating until Paris said its not cheating if its with an image of your wife. He never got a chance to do it but he was going to and Janeway implies he would still do it by saying after the mission he'll have as much time on the holodeck as he needs...It just seemed silly that Tuvok couldn't have thought of that on his own.