Spoilers Empire of Death grade and discussion thread

[Samurai8472]

Susan Triad's identity has the same issue to me as Clara's in S7. So, hundreds of Susan's have been existing throughout all of time and space, all over the Doctor's timeline, but he never once noticed her until, like, 2 weeks ago? That some massively heavy plot convenience there.

 

[kirk55555]

RTD and unsatisfying endings/mystery solutions, name a more iconic Doctor who duo. The episode overall is ok, but screw the whole "Ruby's mother was important because we made her important" bullshit, even for RTD thats utterly moronic. Its a complete cop out, even if we take into account the whole "The Doctor accidentally made the universe more magical" BS into account. Also, there was so much wasted time, the scene on the dead planet were "memories and facts are dying" was both pointless and extremely stupid, and the infinite Susan Triad's was just ridiculous.

I liked how they used the memory TARDIS, and I liked how The Doctor solved things by using his normal TARDIS to drag Sutek through the time vortex. Overall I'd say this was a 6/10 ending from a penultimate episode that was amazing, in that way it feels a bit like Series 9 all over again (although Ncuti didn't get a role defining performance in the penultimate episode like Capaldi did in Heaven Sent).

Series 14 (I'm not calling it Season or Series 1) overall was mixed, probably more mediocre then bad or good, but it had a few stand out episodes and was overall much better then any of Chibnall's seasons. I like Ncuti as The Doctor but I don't think he's quite come into his own yet. He hasn't had enough time in the role and I think they need to tweak the writing a bit, less of the constantly giving up and crying next series would be nice (I know he's a more emotional Doctor, but it comes off as borderline hysterical way too often in my opinion).

I'm hoping we get an even better series next time, and hopefully Ncuti doesn't take as much time off to do other stuff (two doctor lite episodes in such a small series was really not great).

 

[diankra]

The problem is that the worse it gets the more sure you are that it won't stick. Kill a few characters and we might believe it will hold..

 

[diankra]

RTD and unsatisfying endings/mystery solutions, name a more iconic Doctor who duo. The episode overall is ok, but screw the whole "Ruby's mother was important because we made her important" bullshit, even for RTD thats utterly moronic. Its a complete cop out, even if we take into account the whole "The Doctor accidentally made the universe more magical" BS into account. Also, there was so much wasted time, the scene on the dead planet were "memories and facts are dying" was both pointless and extremely stupid, and the infinite Susan Triad's was just ridiculous.

I liked how they used the memory TARDIS, and I liked how The Doctor solved things by using his normal TARDIS to drag Sutek through the time vortex. Overall I'd say this was a 6/10 ending from a penultimate episode that was amazing, in that way it feels a bit like Series 9 all over again (although Ncuti didn't get a role defining performance in the penultimate episode like Capaldi did in Heaven Sent).

Series 14 (I'm not calling it Season or Series 1) overall was mixed, probably more mediocre then bad or good, but it had a few stand out episodes and was overall much better then any of Chibnall's seasons. I like Ncuti as The Doctor but I don't think he's quite come into his own yet. He hasn't had enough time in the role and I think they need to tweak the writing a bit, less of the constantly giving up and crying next series would be nice (I know he's a more emotional Doctor, but it comes off as borderline hysterical way too often in my opinion).

I'm hoping we get an even better series next time, and hopefully Ncuti doesn't take as much time off to do other stuff (two doctor lite episodes in such a small series was really not great).

Season 41 for me, 40 being the two years of specials.

 

[Photoman15]

Thanks to the BBFCs rating for the episode talking about teenage pregnancy and domestic violence, I knew none of the theories about Ruby's mother were right, so that wasn't a shock.

And Mrs Flood is clearly one of the gods, presumably the god of stories or something similar, which is why she can break the fourth wall and talk to us.

Maybe Mrs. Flood is the Master's wife. She brought him back once before and now, she might have been the one to pick up the Toymakers tooth prison.
Her last line sounds like something from her point of view.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Well, I have to say, if nothing else, this finale felt more like a combination Moffat and Chibnall than Davies himself. Sure, it raised the stakes well beyond belief (as each of the Davies tried to outdo the previous), but it also had the quietness, slow-paced nature, and almost an entire lack of grandiose that's not typical of Davies at all.

But what really stood out about this finale is how it felt like an endless series of contradictive appeal.

I both loved and hated the idea that Sutekh has been secretly hiding aboard the TARDIS ever since his supposed defeat in Pyramid of Mars (I'm trying to scour my memory why such a set-up sound so familiar, Doctor Who or otherwise). It's a terrifying idea but it also feels impossible to believe in relation to certain stories, and almost stretches credibility (what, stretching credibility on Doctor Who?! Never!).

I both loved and hated the great dusting of the universe. At one moment, it shows the horrible nature of Sutekh in a sweeping motion...but as more and more important characters die off, we know a giant reset button will be pushed by the end. With that in mind, the seriousness of the threat is undermined because it doesn't quite carry the threat of situation. The great dusting doesn't manage the same weight as Infinity War (even though we knew that would be reset, too).

I both loved and hated how easily The Doctor defeated Sutekh. Once again, Sutekh's grand arrogance blows up in his face, but on the other hand, "bringing death to death gives life!" is just plain weird, even for Doctor Who. I get what Davies was trying to go for there...but it just doesn't work for me, much like most of his over-the-top finales.

I both loved and hated the idea that Ruby's mother was just an ordinary woman with no greater cosmic implications as heavily teased the whole season. I relished Davies subverting our expectations (just as he did with Susan Twist), but I also found the explanation for the hooded mother pointing at a street sign as a means of naming Ruby incredibly tacky. At the same time, I feel like we're in a Rey situation. One moment we're told she's just an ordinary person and half of fandom celebrates the revelation (myself included), while the other half of fandom decries it. But I feel like the other shoe is going to drop next season and then we'll be told "Oh, wait! We lied, she's actually extremely important after all!"...which feels very much like Davies' Modus Operandi.

The two exceptions to this dichotomy: I thought the entire denouement went on far too long, feeling almost Return of the King-esque (but without the multiple fade outs). But I absolutely loved Mrs. Flood addressing the audience with her sinister foreboding to conclude the episode as a set-up for the next great threat.

Overall, I'm not sure how I feel. Parts I loved, parts I hated. So...maybe it was more like a Davies finale after all.

 

[The Wormhole]

Susan Triad's identity has the same issue to me as Clara's in S7. So, hundreds of Susan's have been existing throughout all of time and space, all over the Doctor's timeline, but he never once noticed her until, like, 2 weeks ago? That some massively heavy plot convenience there.

It actually works somewhat with just this season and last year's specials given the first Susan Triad the Doctor had any direct interaction with was the Ambulance in Boom, which was the fifth Triad we the audience saw. The next one the Doctor met was Lindy's mother, and that's when he went all "hey wait a minute..." The only oddity is the six months between Space Babies and The Devil's Chord, in which there must not have been any Susan Triads spotted given Ruby's first recognized Triad was 73 Yards, and she had direct interaction with two previously.

Maybe Mrs. Flood is the Master's wife. She brought him back once before and now, she might have been the one to pick up the Toymakers tooth prison.

You talking about Lucy Saxon? She's dead.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

One thing I forgot to mention in my review: I loved the Memory TARDIS sequence! It was great seeing that how that series of mini-episodes connected with the greater plot...and how Mel was secretly there for the last one! And of course, I loved all of the little Easter eggs and look forward to finding the all of the ones I missed this time around. But the best part was seeing Mel lighting up at the sight and feel of The Sixth Doctor's frock coat.

On iPlayer, Sian Clifford (Fleabag) is listed as "Kind Woman." Clearly a case of hiding an identity, presumably both Ruby's mother and the figure seen in the above image. Perhaps she's the "one woman."

Edit: Come to think of it, if Sian Clifford is actually Ruby's mother, then that dashes my "Mrs. Flood" is Ruby's mother theory! Which then begs the question, who the hell is Mrs. Flood?! The Rani, no doubt. No, wait! Susan!

But probably not. Despite whatever role that person plays in the episode, Ruby is more likely the hero that saves the day, just like Rose, Martha, and Donna before her.

Edit: Actually, now I wonder if Ruby is the cloaked figure here, doing her best "end of the world wandering" Martha Jones impression.​

Well, damn. I was completely wrong all counts!

 

[Turtletrekker]

I saw some people commenting that Sutekh's trip through the time vortex undid the Flux. Did I miss a specific reference or are the fans making shit up again?

 

[The Wormhole]

are the fans making shit up again?

Most certainly.

 

[kirk55555]

I saw some people commenting that Sutekh's trip through the time vortex undid the Flux. Did I miss a specific reference or are the fans making shit up again?

Wait, did the Flux have permanent implications? I didn't watch that whole season, but I assumed that it got reset in the end, especially since there is still a huge Universe out there and they haven't mentioned it at all since that season ended.

 

[The Wormhole]

but I assumed that it got reset in the end, especially since there is still a huge Universe out there and they haven't mentioned it at all since that season ended.

It was mentioned in last year's Tennant specials. Flux is what he talked hauntingly about as opposed to the Time War.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Wait, did the Flux have permanent implications? I didn't watch that whole season, but I assumed that it got reset in the end, especially since there is still a huge Universe out there and they haven't mentioned it at all since that season ended.

Nope. No reset. And it was mentioned by The Toymaker in "The Giggle".

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[Captrek]

It actually works somewhat with just this season and last year's specials given the first Susan Triad the Doctor had any direct interaction with was the Ambulance in Boom, which was the fifth Triad we the audience saw. The next one the Doctor met was Lindy's mother, and that's when he went all "hey wait a minute..." The only oddity is the six months between Space Babies and The Devil's Chord, in which there must not have been any Susan Triads spotted given Ruby's first recognized Triad was 73 Yards, and she had direct interaction with two previously.

You talking about Lucy Saxon? She's dead.

Death is dead,

Didn’t Torchwood do a season about this?

 

[Saul]

Wait 6 months to find out who Ruby's mother is and turns out it's some nobody from down the road. Don't try to be clever and play this game with me. In fact, enough with the "who is blah blah really?" mystery BS. This was a poor final and a lackluster season. This really should be a midseason two parter and not a season ending episode because I don't feel I know these character's enough to care and there are still mysteries to be resolved that I'm not going to care about in a year's time.

You talking about Lucy Saxon? She's dead.

They are talking about the old woman that picked up the Master's ring at the end of 'The Last of the Time Lords' and brought him back.

 

[26138]

...but I also found the explanation for the hooded mother pointing at a street sign as a means of naming Ruby incredibly tacky.

I actually said out loud when watching "That's stupid." Aside from the out of universe lovey-dovey sappy shit RTD was pulling there, it also makes no sense whatsoever - are the people in the church supposed to have seen her point to a sign and go "Oh, I guess we'll have to name her Ruby now!" -- no, it was in the middle of a fricken snowstorm and there wasn't anyone out there to see her anyways. To paraphrase Catherine Tate's Nan character: What a load of shit!

OK rant on super specific and minor thing that I devoted way too much time to is now over.

5/10 mostly because Mel was there. Yeah, there are Mel fans out there!

 

[26138]

Also, as an RTD finale it's going to be OTT as Fuck.

I'm waiting for multiple TARDISes to have to transform and connect to eachother into a MegaTARDIS!

...Plus, I'm bored with everything having to be universe-ending consequences.

Yep. Next season he'll have to put all universes ever of all time and extremely all encompassing everything of everythings at risk - it's basic threat escalation in writing.

That wasn't really all that good, to be honest. Right away, you could tell the episode would get a reset button by the end with everyone at the UNIT Command Centre, among them Kate and Rose getting killed. After that, everything just felt padded and drawn out until Sutekh's inevitable defeat and the consequent restoration of everyone back to life. And we even tied 73 Yards into things.

The revelation of Ruby's mother felt rather anticlimactic. I mean, yes, I get what they were going for, and I even like the idea in principle that her mother is just an ordinary person who became sort of mythologized because of the mystery surrounding her. Still, after that much build-up just to reveal Ruby's mother is just a completely ordinary person just fell a bit flat for me, IMO.

Overall this has been one hell of a season, with most of the episodes being either tier one or at least tier two entertainment. But damn, this two-part finale wasn't really that great an addition or really a particularly fitting ending.

Indeed. No tension. Plus there's 'subverting expectations' then there is just being contrary to be contrary. The 'your mother in magical because you believed hard enough' crap was stupid.

Oh dear - failed to stick the landing. Sutekh brings you the gift of disappointment.

Typical Russell finale - great interpersonal and character stuff, absolute pants sci-fi nonsense plot.

The gift of disappointment, aye!

...Also, there was so much wasted time, the scene on the dead planet were "memories and facts are dying" was both pointless and extremely stupid, and the infinite Susan Triad's was just ridiculous...

Whole scene needed cut. Waste of precious Mickey Mouse & TV Detector Van money there!

 

[26138]

Emotional manipulation of the cheap kind everywhere, and a spot of dead baby stuff. Joy.

You will feel the emotions, or RTD will personally shame you!

Scene/plot resolutions that make no sense even one moment to the next.

Shh, let him have his 'dragging the dog along behind the car' moment. This episode needed a 'cruelty to elder gods' warning.

A 13 year old kid not only works at Unit, but has machine guns in his scooter.

And the British call American TV violent lol. When will UNIT actually encounter something that can be shot and killed [preferably with adults doing the shooting and killing]?

Gobbledegook dialogue that doesn’t even make sense while it is being spoken (which is standard for RTD, but here it’s expected to be an explanation)
More endings than Return of the King.
Star Trek Into Darkness levels of ‘here’s a scene they did better before’. And some added calls to nostalgia.
Resolution to threat that is silly, makes almost no sense (and involves the Tardis towing something…)
Music so busy telling me what to feel I had to rewind to hear stuff.

I've just started watching with subtitles on by default. Also speed through at anywhere from 1.2-1.5x speed. It's a compliment to DW because I'm normally blazing through stuff at 1.5x minimum.

A new record for ‘how many times can the Doctor cry in an episode’ (three times at least, though they edited one bit out but left the tear streak in place by looks of it)

New rule: he has to cry once for each regeneration he's had (bonus points for books/comics/other media ones included).

That’s not what the inside of a CRT looks like (nor would it need to be one for VHS)

UNIT's just really into retro-looking stuff I guess? Maybe they slapped a faux curved glass piece on the front to make it look like one?

RTD lies (looks like Ruby is gone…)

Hmm without looking at IMDB or reading what people have reported, I don't know. I was under the impression she was coming back for next season. Maybe it's just 'ol RTD SuBvErTiNg ExPeCtAtIoNs again?

Does Rose Not Tyler even get a line?
Why did The Doctor and Ruby change costumes for 2046? (Good year choice. The film was better though)

Cut content because we gotta make room for the pointless scene on the dead planet where he gets a spoon. I was really hoping for 2 spoons so he could channel some McCoy and play this week's musical song and dance number on them. Oh sweet holy TARDIS don't steal that idea, RTD. My poor heart can't take that much silliness.

“Cultural appropriation” throwing shade on old Who? Or are we talking about Egypt/Osiris?

Either the Egyptians stole from the aliens, or the aliens stole from the Egyptians, I can't remember off the top of my head. It's stated in Pyramids of Mars.

Whole planets dying at different times?
Stars dying now?
Things happening for sake of convenience.
Robots grow their head back.
At least he undid the token death of last week.
Maybe show the baby and her mother coming back though?
Season long arc resolved in a way that makes no sense at all.
People behaving without any sense of realism, even by Who standards.

Yep. Oh, they did show the mom and the baby living again.

Doctor having Thirteen levels of being an arse to someone (yeah, there’s your mum, don’t go talk to her though, she clearly couldn’t be arsed)

Written like it was straight out of an ABC Family drama for teens. Seriously. I'm in the middle of binge watching Grown-ish (don't judge me, I'm allowed a guilty pleasure or two in my life! Watching at 1.9x speed lol), and the whole conversation in DW sounds just like the college-aged characters in Grown-ish talking about whether or not to inform the guy a character has a one night stand with that she got pregnant and gave birth to his child.

Sutekh has been hitching a ride for a few centuries on the Tardis, and no one noticed, not even when it blew up and was rebooted from a memory? Not when it was split in half? Not when she was split into humanoid body? Not throughout the whole Time War or whenever she was back on Gallifrey?
Susan Triad is a perfect trap for the Doctor? Why does he need to be trapped?
They put the big Dog on a leash, how funny. How naff.

I'd be willing to give the Sutekh hitchhiking a pass if the rest was handled better. If only K9 could have told him 'bad dog' and zapped him instead!

I… don’t think Ncuti has the acting skills for the Doctorish stuff. It felt like he had just been handed his lines sometimes. Sorry.

I feel he's playing Ncuti Gatwa playing the Doctor. Also, he yells in exasperation a lot this season. That's the only memorable thing from his doctor I can recall.

Not only should Dimensions In Time be canon, all of Eastenders should be in there. Fits right in.

Only if they also sing "Doctor in Distress" - we need those musical numbers!

Only eight episodes, and I am meant to care about *any* of these people? Millie’s the only regular who has had anything to do, and has acted well. Even then I am not exactly buying the super special ‘changed me’ stuff.

Yeah, Millie's done a pretty good job. The lack of episodes really combats us believing the 'changed me' stuff though.

And of course she loves the Doctor. Of course. (Haven’t we done that before too?)

Rose II: Electric Boogaloo. Or did I already think that about Martha back in the day? Well phooey...

Shame the Doctor didn’t think to get himself a better costume from the Memory Tardis.

Bring back Colin's coat as the main costume, or we'll RIOT!

Still, it’s taken nearly forty years, but Mel was finally relevant to a plot. Still didn’t let her do any of the computer stuff (she could have designed the security, rather than the Doctor implying he did…)

Absolute travesty that they didn't have her do any computer stuff. Come join the Mel fan club - there might even be dozens of us at this point! She's amazing in The Juggernauts and even gets to flex her programming skills!

And Mrs.Flood was so written as River Song. Which will likely be more flim flam.

Dagnabit, hoping he would SuBvErT ExPeCtAtIoNs and make her a no one...

It was worse than I expected. And that’s saying something.

Same. Still might downgrade from 5/10 to 4/10 after I think some more.

 

[jaime]

They did, during the sequence where all life was being restored, we see the mother holding her baby in the middle of a rain forest.

I must have blinked and missed it. Had to keep pausing for helicopters outside anyway. Glad they did.

 

[JoeZhang]

* Why is a 15 year old in 2004 wearing a hooded cape like she is in the middle ages?

* Why set up that the woman on the planet has memories of being an opera singer if that's not the reveal later? Money run out?

* If Sutekh survived for hundreds of years in the time vortex while does he die this time?

* Why does the Doctor get so upset about killing someone he killed before with a smile?