Does having a non-officer in the "Chief of Operations" position make sense?

[Lynx]

O'Brien is also wearing (two) lieutenant pips on his dress uniform during his wedding in TNG's "Data's Day."

Every picture tells a story!

And yet, despite wearing Lieutenant's pips in Family, Sergei Rozhenko instantly recognizes O'Brien as a Chief Petty Officer.

Either Sergei Rozhenko had a bad knowledge of Starfleet ranks or he was deliberately insulting Miles.

I did all sorts of back flips and contortions many many years ago for a website I created trying to make sense of O'Brien's pips in TNG. In the end I ignored the pips and stuck with the DS9 chevrons.

I can see your point. But I'm a nitpicker who also loooove to come up with somewhat complicated explanations for certain errors and mysteries. On the Kes Website, I have made a page about all those errors and contradictions in Voyager. I may have to expand it to DS9 and TNG as well.

Yes, the photo of Miles on the Memory Alpha article if you blow it up clearly has two additional dots to the right of the chevrons. They're smaller than the officers' pips, and not really a good design of insignia - you shouldn't have to get up to a foot from the man's collar in order to see what rank he has.

Clearly just inconsistent wardrobe choices. Though if you feel like you must give it an in-universe explanation you could say he was given an acting commission as lieutenant for a short time in order to be an acting section head or something and then decided he'd rather let it expire and revert to his permanent rank as an NCO.

Sisko was less of a by-the-book CO than Picard and was fine with O'Brien having just operational authority over the few starfleet engineers reporting to him.

Yes, it is two small dots. I wasn't really sure what they meant but I found a picture with Starfleet ranks on Pinterest (see below) where everything is explained.

Obviously those Petty Officer ranks with chevrons and dots have replaced the Warrant Officer rank in Starfleet.

However, it doesn't explain O'Brien's Lieutenant pips in TNG and why he lost them.

Not according to dialogue in several dozen episodes, which refer to him as a "Chief" or "Chief Petty Officer" not a Lieutenant (which was a single unscripted occasion) and a likely wardrobe error.

"Wardrobe error" might be the Gray Universe solution.
But I would like to have a Star Trek Universe Solution as well.

Was he?

Oh, yes, he was! (Oh yes he was!), Oh, yes, he was! (Oh yes he was!)
He was a Lieutenat on the Enterprise for four years
Then he was demoted and no one knows why
Such a dedicated Officer in Starfleet!

Sorry, I just had to do that! Please listen to "Deicated Follower Of Fashion" by the Kinks which gave me the inspiration for that little tune.

Could be, or it could just be a placeholder for a "subordinate officer" ranks, given that he continued to wear it on his dress uniform as a Senior Chief Specialist (which would be the equivalent of a warrant officer in the British sense, but not a US W-1)

Note my previous comment about the Warrant Office rank and that may have become obsolete in later years in Starfleet.

No, because he's going from at most a section leader to a Department Head, therefore if anything even if he was a Chief Petty Officer on the Enterprise, he should have been a Lieutenant by the time he was prompted to Senior Chief Specialist.

Then he was promoted in role but obviously demoted in rank when he arrived at the station Deep Space Nine.

Nothing, because there was no demotion after or during his transfer as he had the same rank and a promotion in role on the station compared to the Enterprise.

He was wearing a Lieutenat's uniform for four years on the Enterprise and then he becomes a Warrant Officer (and later on a Senior Chief Petty Officer ) on Deep Space Nine. I just get the impression that he was demoted between the events in Realm Of Fear (TNG) and Emissary (DS9).
Something must have happened and I have a feeling that Riker was involved.

Really?

Last time I checked a Sergeant's insignia has three chevrons and zero additional elements (rockers, stars, pips)...

Whereas O'Brien's insignia has three chevrons and two additional elements, which would put it as a Senior Chief Petty Officer (which closely matches his stated rank of Senior Chief Specialist).

I stand corrected here.
I found this on Pinterest which explains everything about this insignia.


For everyone who reads this, especially fans of Miles O'Brien:

I'm not out to mess with and scandalize O'Brien in any way. He's a great character and definitely one of my favorites.

The same for Riker. A character I also like.

I just like to come up with explanations and solutions for odd things and contradictions in Star Trek.

When it comes to O'Briens ranks and the contradictions we see on screen, it was just too good to miss. It could as well have been about Bashir, Jadzia or Ezri.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Note my previous comment about the Warrant Office rank and that may have become obsolete in later years in Starfleet.

Warrant Officers are a totally different thing than a Petty Officer in the US Armed Forces

"Warrant Officer" never shows up on screen until Prodigy. Though it does appear in some BTS material,

 

[Jedman67]

They needed to make O'Brien subordinate to Barclay in Realm of Fear, so that Barclay could give him an order.
As a recurring guest star, they didn't bother to make sure his costume/rank was consistent across the seasons ;-)

When he moved to DS9 and became a lead, they were a little more consistent about his rank, and decided to officially make him a CPO, in line with Sergey Rozhenko's remarks.

In universe, O'Brien was probably demoted by Riker after failing to recover Picard in BOBTW 1 and kicked back to enlisted (or maybe it was a poker game).
"But enlisted and officer are completely different rank types and specialties, you can't just "demote" an officer to enlisted" you might tell me.
And while you're probably right, I think we can safely blame this snafu on the Heisenberg Compensator.

 

[Lynx]

They needed to make O'Brien subordinate to Barclay in Realm of Fear, so that Barclay could give him an order.
As a recurring guest star, they didn't bother to make sure his costume/rank was consistent across the seasons ;-)

When he moved to DS9 and became a lead, they were a little more consistent about his rank, and decided to officially make him a CPO, in line with Sergey Rozhenko's remarks.

In universe, O'Brien was probably demoted by Riker after failing to recover Picard in BOBTW 1 and kicked back to enlisted (or maybe it was a poker game).
"But enlisted and officer are completely different rank types and specialties, you can't just "demote" an officer to enlisted" you might tell me.
And while you're probably right, I think we can safely blame this snafu on the Heisenberg Compensator.

Unfortunately, sloppiness when it comes to details have always been a problem for Star Trek.
But sometimes it gives me a lot of fun to come up with theorise and explanations about it.
I will consider your theory about a poker game.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Warrant Officers are a totally different thing than a Petty Officer in the US Armed Forces

Pretty much everywhere actually.

OTOH, non-US E8 and E9s are usually considered to be warrant officers in most comparable Anglophone services, so something similar might be going on.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Every picture tells a story

Yeah, but every word also tells a story, and IMO one ambigous reference to him being a LT is overridden by literally hundreds if not thousands of references to him being a "Chief" in almost every episode he appears including most if not all of the ones that he wears "lieutenants" pips.

Either Sergei Rozhenko had a bad knowledge of Starfleet ranks or he was deliberately insulting Miles.

Given that that scene was the first scene in the entire series that was specifically written for that character, I don't see any reason to suspect that this is the case unless you're suggesting that he couldn't be an NCO because "All Starfleet officers are commissioned".

Obviously those Petty Officer ranks with chevrons and dots have replaced the Warrant Officer rank in Starfleet.

Nope, if that ever happened then it wasn't until over a decade later, as the majority of the specific references to Petty Officers or Chief Petty Officers in Starfleet were during the 'NCO Patch' era.

However, it doesn't explain O'Brien's Lieutenant pips in TNG and why he lost them.

I've given you both in and out-of-universe explanations for that that are totally plausible, I'm not going repeat myself.

Note my previous comment about the Warrant Office rank and that may have become obsolete in later years in Starfleet.

See above why you're wrong.

Then he was promoted in role but obviously demoted in rank when he arrived at the station Deep Space Nine.

That's not how that works... promotions in role either are at the same rank (which the bulk of the evidence suggests is the case here) or are at an increased rank.

He was wearing a Lieutenat's uniform for four years on the Enterprise and then he becomes a Warrant Officer (and later on a Senior Chief Petty Officer ) on Deep Space Nine.

But was referred to in the script as "Transporter Chief" and/or "Chief O'Brien" in the script and in dialogue as "Chief" or "Chief O'Brien" in almost every appearance across those four years.

I just get the impression that he was demoted between the events in Realm Of Fear (TNG) and Emissary (DS9).

Well, that's headcanon at best, not least because he was retcon'd in All Good Things as "Chief O'Brien" five years before his insignia was corrected in Realm of Fear.

Something must have happened and I have a feeling that Riker was involved.

Again. Headcanon.

 

[kkt]

Did Starfleet even have warrant officers? I don't remember them mentioned.

Was O'Brien in the poker games on TNG at all? I thought the senior officers played in a different game than junior officers or noncoms.

 

[Frontis]

O'Brien's case is similar to Kim in VOY who also never was advanced and stayed Ensign.
And many fans didn't like it.
The difference is that O'Brien's character has been developed pretty well in DS9 and so the rank didn't matter so much.
Just some thoughts I wanted to add.

 

[The Wormhole]

Did Starfleet even have warrant officers? I don't remember them mentioned.

The gang in Prodigy become warrant officers at the end of S1.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Did Starfleet even have warrant officers? I don't remember them mentioned.

It didn't traditionally in aired episodes. The closest we got was one or two references to such in the ENT novels, some inconsistent BTS stuff and some speculation about Kosinski from Where No-One Has Gone Before.

Was O'Brien in the poker games on TNG at all? I thought the senior officers played in a different game than junior officers or noncoms.

He doesn't appear to be a regular attendee, however he was included in the first game in Measure of a Man and apparently performed poorly, so may have chosen not to attend further occasions.

The gang in Prodigy become warrant officers at the end of S1.

Technically "warrant officers in training" but that does rather imply that substantive warrant officers also exist.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

This thread proves how incompetent the producers could be, and how futile it is to explain O'Brien's rank across two series.

I have no reason to believe he was a warrant officer, but it would have at least presented an elegant solution. It does provide greater flexibility when dealing with specialists. If they had used a hybrid of army and Navy traditions, they could have done more. In the army, the warrant officers are the helicopter pilots, and the chief warrant officers are called "chief."

 

[Lynx]

Yeah, but every word also tells a story, and IMO one ambigous reference to him being a LT is overridden by literally hundreds if not thousands of references to him being a "Chief" in almost every episode he appears including most if not all of the ones that he wears "lieutenants" pips.

Can't a Lieutenant be a Chief as well?

Nope, if that ever happened then it wasn't until over a decade later, as the majority of the specific references to Petty Officers or Chief Petty Officers in Starfleet were during the 'NCO Patch' era.

So why was O'Brien wearing a black pip for three years and why did he get an insignia with chevrons instead?

I've given you both in and out-of-universe explanations for that that are totally plausible, I'm not going repeat myself.

Your out of universe explanations about wardrobe rrrors and such are highly plausible but your in-universe explanations arent.

But was referred to in the script as "Transporter Chief" and/or "Chief O'Brien" in the script and in dialogue as "Chief" or "Chief O'Brien" in almost every appearance across those four years.

But why was he wearing a Lieutenants insignia then?

Well, that's headcanon at best, not least because he was retcon'd in All Good Things as "Chief O'Brien" five years before his insignia was corrected in Realm of Fear.

Isn't "headcanon" better and more acceptable than faullty cannon or contradictional canon?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Can't a Lieutenant be a Chief as well?

Theoretically, but given that no other Department Head in the history of 1960s-early 2000s shows was ever referred to as such, doing so would be insulting him compared to referring to him by his rank, and IMO hundreds to thousands to references to him being a "Chief" override the single reference to him being a Lieutenant.

So why was O'Brien wearing a black pip for three years and why did he get an insignia with chevrons instead?

Actually, he continued to wear the black pip on occasion on dress uniforms, so the most likely scenario as I've suggested before is that the black pip designates a group of ranks (we've seen that in whole uniforms several times, so a more limited one is plausible), and that it took a while for the appropriate Starfleet department to decide on how they were going to translate the detailed system inherited from the "Monster Maroons" (seven grades from Crewman to Master Chief) into the new system.

Your out of universe explanations about wardrobe rrrors and such are highly plausible but your in-universe explanations arent.

My in-universe explanation that there was something that Rozhenko could see that we, the viewer, couldn't rather than that Rozhenko was being deliberately and blatantly insulting while being depicted as being friendly... is less plausible to you? Can you honestly say that?

But why was he wearing a Lieutenants insignia then?

He isn't. He only looks like he is. The fact that he is almost universally referred to as Chief while wearing a variety of insignia tells us that the variety is the mistake, not the consistency.

Isn't "headcanon" better and more acceptable than faullty cannon or contradictional canon?

No, because without the headcanon... there is no faulty canon or contradiction:

O'Brien's Rank History:

Option 1 (based on uniform): Enlists as Crewman (2345), promoted to Ensign (<2364), demoted to Crewman (2364), promoted direct to Lieutenant (2365), demoted to Chief Petty Officer (2369), promoted to Senior Chief Specialist* (<2370) -- highly inconsistent, somewhat illogical and unlikely.

Option 2 (based on dialogue and latterly uniform): Enlists as Crewman (2345), promoted through the Petty Officer ranks to Chief Petty Officer (<2364), promoted to Senior Chief Specialist* (2369-2370) -- Mostly consistent, logically and highly likely.

* Likely equivalent to Senior Chief Petty Officer.

 

[kkt]

Referring to a navy or Starfleet Lieutenant as "chief" would be as wrong and insulting as referring to an army Captain as "Sergeant".

 

[Lynx]

Theoretically, but given that no other Department Head in the history of 1960s-early 2000s shows was ever referred to as such, doing so would be insulting him compared to referring to him by his rank, and IMO hundreds to thousands to references to him being a "Chief" override the single reference to him being a Lieutenant.

But that was back in the Dark Ages. Couldn't it have changed in the 24th century?
And was Janeway and Chakotay insulting Lieutenat Torres on Voyager while referring to her as Chief Engineer?

Actually, he continued to wear the black pip on occasion on dress uniforms, so the most likely scenario as I've suggested before is that the black pip designates a group of ranks (we've seen that in whole uniforms several times, so a more limited one is plausible), and that it took a while for the appropriate Starfleet department to decide on how they were going to translate the detailed system inherited from the "Monster Maroons" (seven grades from Crewman to Master Chief) into the new system.

Not correct. he was wearing the black pip on his daily uniform all the time in the first three years until the chevron style insignia showed up in the episode Hippocratic Oath.

Look at the screencaps at Trekcore from the episode Paradise.

My in-universe explanation that there was something that Rozhenko could see that we, the viewer, couldn't rather than that Rozhenko was being deliberately and blatantly insulting while being depicted as being friendly... is less plausible to you? Can you honestly say that?

Honestly not, I must admit. But I just had to come up with something.

He isn't. He only looks like he is. The fact that he is almost universally referred to as Chief while wearing a variety of insignia tells us that the variety is the mistake, not the consistency.

So if I see the insignia of Lieutenant on O'Briens uniform, then I'm delusional and have hallucinations?

No, because without the headcanon... there is no faulty canon or contradiction:

O'Brien's Rank History:

Option 1 (based on uniform): Enlists as Crewman (2345), promoted to Ensign (<2364), demoted to Crewman (2364), promoted direct to Lieutenant (2365), demoted to Chief Petty Officer (2369), promoted to Senior Chief Specialist* (<2370) -- highly inconsistent, somewhat illogical and unlikely.

Option 2 (based on dialogue and latterly uniform): Enlists as Crewman (2345), promoted through the Petty Officer ranks to Chief Petty Officer (<2364), promoted to Senior Chief Specialist* (2369-2370) -- Mostly consistent, logically and highly likely.

* Likely equivalent to Senior Chief Petty Officer.

But I still see the two pips on his uniform in the episodes covering the period January 2365 to January 2369.

Or to quote what Picard should have said if questioned by Gul Madred:
"THEEERE AAAAARE TWOOOO PIPS!"

 

[nightwind1]

O'Brien has surely proven over and over again that he is well qualified to be Chief Engineer of DS9. Maybe the real question here is why O'Brien wasn't given a commission or at least offered a path toward commission. I could also see him given some kind of battlefield promotion at some point during the war.

Because he WORKS for a living, damnit.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Referring to a navy or Starfleet Lieutenant as "chief" would be as wrong and insulting as referring to an army Captain as "Sergeant".

Chiefs are widely revered throughout the USN and USAF. A lieutenant being called a Chief would more likely be embarrassing than insulting. Similarly, officers are often deferential toward Chief Warrant Officers (also chiefs) despite outranking them.

But to add to the confusion, a First Lieutenant in the Navy might be called Chief. First Lieutenant is a billet, the OIC of deck operations. On smaller ships, this person could be an NCO, a CPO or even a PO. ( No indication O'Brien was thus billeted.)

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

But that was back in the Dark Ages. Couldn't it have changed in the 24th century?

It could, but the fact is that it didn't.

And was Janeway and Chakotay insulting Lieutenat Torres on Voyager while referring to her as Chief Engineer?

No, because "Chief Engineer" is a billet not a rank.

Not correct. he was wearing the black pip on his daily uniform all the time in the first three years until the chevron style insignia showed up in the episode Hippocratic Oath.

Yes, correct. During the first three years on the station he wore the black pip on all uniforms, then switched to the NCO patch on the working uniform but kept the black pip on his dress uniform.

Honestly not, I must admit. But I just had to come up with something.

Agree to disagree.

So if I see the insignia of Lieutenant on O'Briens uniform, then I'm delusional and have hallucinations?

Wardrobe department induced ones in a sense.

But I still see the two pips on his uniform in the episodes covering the period January 2365 to January 2369.

Yes, which is why I said that he was demoted to Crewman from Ensign, then promoted to Lieutenant and then demoted again to Chief, if we mostly ignore dialogue and prioritise wardrobe. Which is far more inconsistent than the other option.

Chiefs are widely revered throughout the USN and USAF. A lieutenant being called a Chief would more likely be embarrassing than insulting.

On a personal level that might be true, but it would still be a "insult" in protocol terms.

Similarly, officers are often deferential toward Chief Warrant Officers (also chiefs) despite outranking them.

Agreed.

But to add to the confusion, a First Lieutenant in the Navy might be called Chief. First Lieutenant is a billet, the OIC of deck operations. On smaller ships, this person could be an NCO, a CPO or even a PO. ( No indication O'Brien was thus billeted.)

More the other way around.

A Petty Officer or Chief on a smaller ship might be called Lieutenant due to holding the billet of First Lieutenant (though I've also seen that role referred to as Bosun/Boatswain, Coxswain, or Executive Petty Officer in those settings).

 

[Citiprime]

Something related to this idea that I just thought about... In the episode "Valiant," where the members of Red Squad are staffing the starship. The Starfleet cadets would all be the equivalent of midshipmen in modern US Navy terms, but are all presumably future Starfleet officers.

The cadet character that's O'Brien's equivalent on the Valiant ("Dorian Collins," who has a plot point about being from Luna/The Moon) is referred to as "chief," and according to Memory Alpha was given the position of "acting Chief Petty Officer" for the ship, when she could of just as easily been made "acting chief engineer" and had an officer's status.

In the US Navy, midshipmen are considered officers. So this would be an instance where an officer is serving in an enlisted role/capacity.

 

[Lynx]

It could, but the fact is that it didn't.

But things could change in 300 years or so.

No, because "Chief Engineer" is a billet not a rank.

But couldn't "Chief" be regarded as a billet too?

Yes, correct. During the first three years on the station he wore the black pip on all uniforms, then switched to the NCO patch on the working uniform but kept the black pip on his dress uniform.

You're probably right here, I haven't checked the Dress Uniforms that closely.

Wardrobe department induced ones in a sense.

In that case, the Wardrobe Officer on the Enterprise wasn't doing his job.

Yes, which is why I said that he was demoted to Crewman from Ensign, then promoted to Lieutenant and then demoted again to Chief, if we mostly ignore dialogue and prioritise wardrobe. Which is far more inconsistent than the other option.

But it's still visible.
Or should we all blame the Wardrobe Officer?
And aren't mine suggestions about demotions and such a little more exciting?