Do people still believe in Hell?

[Amaris]

@Awesome Possum: "Yes"

@Coloratura: What the heck is a flixilpatyr? That sounds painful and possibly expensive.

srsly, even though I enjoy my church life very much, I certainly can't claim that we're the only ones who "got it right". We're Lutherans, after all. We're not supposed to be assertive!

It is a device no one has seen, no one can describe, and I'm the only one who knows what it really looks like.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

As per Roddenberry in "The Cage," Hell is "a fable ... once heard in childhood."

I always thought that scene was just referring to Dante's Inferno...

As for hell, I must admit I got chills from that Supernatural scene with Castiel and Crowley. Anyone who's been stuck in an airport would.

 

[JeffinOakland]

You're absolutely right. What makes you illogical is the fact that you are using fallacious logic to support your claims.
That is not even why I disagree with you. I disagreed with you because you were wrong to deny that religions evolve and change. (Indeed, if I claimed your conclusions were wrong just because they were reached by fallacious logic, I'd be employing fallacious reasoning myself -- the Fallacy Fallacy. But that is not what I am doing.)

1. I claimed that religions evolve, amalgamate, and incorporate. This is observable historical fact.
2. You denied this -- I disagreed with you, because you are wrong, it's that simple. As you said, there are such things as true statements. Mine was one.
3. In an attempt to support your denial, you used fallacious reasoning, relying most heavily on two specific logical fallacies, namely: No True Scotsman and Argument from Authority.

I think I mispoke. In which case I apologize for not being clear. I also allowed 5he discussion to fragment into different parts. I do understand that religions change over time. However, my point was that a religion that changes so much that it abandons the few basic tenants that define that religion makes it no longer that religion. For example : the most basic tenant of Christianity is that Christ was the son of the god of the old testament and, by sacrificing himself, he absolved mankind of its sins. If you don't believe Jesus is your savior, you aren't a Christian. There's nothing wrong w not being a Christian. I'm not. Neither are Buddhists or Muslims or Hindus.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I always thought that scene was just referring to Dante's Inferno...

In fairness, I can't claim to know what Roddenberry was thinking. But Dante's Inferno isn't generally considered a "fable," in any sense of the word and as far as I know, whereas on the other hand "fable" can be used in certain particular contexts to mean myth, fiction, or tale, in particular one passed down through tradition. For example, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fable]:

In the King James Version of the New Testament, "μῦθος" ("mythos") was rendered by the translators as "fable"[1] in the First Epistle to Timothy, the Second Epistle to Timothy, the Epistle to Titus and the First Epistle of Peter.[2]

[...]

1. ^ For example, in First Timothy, "neither give heed to fables...", and "refuse profane and old wives' fables..." (1 Tim 1:4 and 4:4, respectively).
2. ^ Strong's 3454. μύθος muthos moo’-thos; perhaps from the same as 3453 (through the idea of tuition); a tale, i.e. fiction ("myth"):—fable.
"For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty." (2nd Peter 1:16)​

So, yeah, while my interpretation is that that scene in "The Cage" is referring to Hell in general, and I'm pretty sure it's right (more likely in childhood to be told of burning in eternal torment than about Dante), I really can't claim it's more than my interpretation.

 

[Amaris]

I think I mispoke. In which case I apologize for not being clear. I also allowed 5he discussion to fragment into different parts. I do understand that religions change over time. However, my point was that a religion that changes so much that it abandons the few basic tenants that define that religion makes it no longer that religion. For example : the most basic tenant of Christianity is that Christ was the son of the god of the old testament and, by sacrificing himself, he absolved mankind of its sins. If you don't believe Jesus is your savior, you aren't a Christian. There's nothing wrong w not being a Christian. I'm not. Neither are Buddhists or Muslims or Hindus.

That is incorrect, though. A Christian isn't someone who believes Jesus Christ is their savior, or the son of God. A Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Christ, or the religion based upon those teachings. That's it. Everything else comes down to doctrinal choice, and there are as many doctrines as their are opinions. You can be a Christian Buddhist, because Buddhism doesn't interefere with or undermine Christianity at its core.

That's why @thestrangequark cited the No True Scotsman fallacy. To see where she's coming from, just replace "No True Scotsman" with "No True Christian," and you'll see why your point does not stand. You cannot say who is or who isn't a "true" Christian, because your understanding of the faith is just as biased and flawed as the next person, and is in no way authoritative. You can say that you don't think Jesus would approve of something, but that's about all you can say on the subject.

 

[Voth commando1]

That is incorrect, though. A Christian isn't someone who believes Jesus Christ is their savior, or the son of God. A Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Christ, or the religion based upon those teachings. That's it. Everything else comes down to doctrinal choice, and there are as many doctrines as their are opinions. You can be a Christian Buddhist, because Buddhism doesn't interefere with or undermine Christianity at its core.

That's why @thestrangequark cited the No True Scotsman fallacy. To see where she's coming from, just replace "No True Scotsman" with "No True Christian," and you'll see why your point does not stand. You cannot say who is or who isn't a "true" Christian, because your understanding of the faith is just as biased and flawed as the next person, and is in no way authoritative. You can say that you don't think Jesus would approve of something, but that's about all you can say on the subject.

I'm sorry but there is one true doctrine, the others either miss the mark or are heretical-Chalcedonian Trinitarianism is essential, the Nicene Creed is essential, The Apostles Creed is essential, exclusivism is essential, and that is all. Denying these doctrines is heresy, if not apostasy period no exceptions, Churches can quibble over instrumental music and the most appropriate dress and so on yet these doctrines are held by all true churches(The RC, Orthodox, most protestants, Nestorians(kind of iffy)). Mormons, JWs, Unitarians, mainline protestants that have abandoned these things, cafeteria catholics, and other smaller sundry groups are heresies and will receive no hearing from me.

I look forward every day to a trumpet blast, to the cries of Angels declaring human history to be finished, and I want to be sitting on the right hand of Jesus come Judgement day. Given your statements you'll be on his left and if you were a minister you know very well what that entails.

 

[Amaris]

I'm sorry but there is one true doctrine, the others either miss the mark or are heretical-Chalcedonian Trinitarianism is essential, the Nicene Creed is essential, The Apostles Creed is essential, exclusivism is essential, and that is all. Denying these doctrines is heresy, if not apostasy period no exceptions, Churches can quibble over instrumental music and the most appropriate dress and so on yet these doctrines are held by all true churches(The RC, Orthodox, most protestants, Nestorians(kind of iffy)). Mormons, JWs, Unitarians, mainline protestants that have abandoned these things, cafeteria catholics, and other smaller sundry groups are heresies and will receive no hearing from me.

I look forward every day to a trumpet blast, to the cries of Angels declaring human history to be finished, and I want to be sitting on the right hand of Jesus come Judgement day. Given your statements you'll be on his left and if you were a minister you know very well what that entails.

Well, good luck to you then.

 

[Voth commando1]

I need no luck my soul is saved, how's yours?

 

[Amaris]

I need no luck my soul is saved, how's yours?

This is not the place to proselytize, nor do I accept your mythology. Once more, good luck to you.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I thought God was infinite love; what does he need with Hell?

 

[JeffinOakland]

That is incorrect, though. A Christian isn't someone who believes Jesus Christ is their savior, or the son of God. A Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Christ, or the religion based upon those teachings. That's it. Everything else comes down to doctrinal choice, and there are as many doctrines as their are opinions. You can be a Christian Buddhist, because Buddhism doesn't interefere with or undermine Christianity at its core.

That's why @thestrangequark cited the No True Scotsman fallacy. To see where she's coming from, just replace "No True Scotsman" with "No True Christian," and you'll see why your point does not stand. You cannot say who is or who isn't a "true" Christian, because your understanding of the faith is just as biased and flawed as the next person, and is in no way authoritative. You can say that you don't think Jesus would approve of something, but that's about all you can say on the subject.

Seems like you have an idea of Christianity as a watered-down feel-good school of thought specifically designed to be comforting and inclusive. Jesus was a nice guy and a dandy teacher. That's true but it's also incomplete. I used to be a Christian and if I had told my fellow Christians that some Christians don't think Jesus was the son of god or the savior of mankind, every single Christian I knew would have told me point blank that those people aren't really Christians. Every one. Go ask a pastor or priest if you can be a Christian without accepting the resurrection or the divinity of Christ. They will all tell you "no".

 

[Amaris]

Seems like you have an idea of Christianity as a watered-down feel-good school of thought specifically designed to be comforting and inclusive. Jesus was a nice guy and a dandy teacher. That's true but it's also incomplete. I used to be a Christian and if I had told my fellow Christians that some Christians don't think Jesus was the son of god or the savior of mankind, every single Christian I knew would have told me point blank that those people aren't really Christians. Every one. Go ask a pastor or priest if you can be a Christian without accepting the resurrection or the divinity of Christ. They will all tell you "no".

You're doing it again. Your comments have a real issue with overriding other people's experiences, labeling them as "wrong," and then telling them they don't know what they know.I have a feeling the responses given here today would be the same if I were the Pope.

I will tell you the same thing I told Voth Commando: good luck to you.

 

[JeffinOakland]

You're doing it again.

Doing what? Asserting my opinion based on what I know? Yes, I am doing that again. Go ahead, don't agree with me. Google "what do Christians believe". Calling a thing what it is not just because you want badly to believe it is doesn't make it so.

 

[Amaris]

Doing what? Asserting my opinion based on what I know? Yes, I am doing that again. Go ahead, don't agree with me. Google "what do Christians believe". Calling a thing what it is not just because you want badly to believe it is doesn't make it so.

I don't have to Google "what Christians believe" because I was a Christian. I was a Christian minister for 13 years, and before that I had been steeped in biblical study since I was a small child. You're using your opinion as a bludgeon, treating it like it's some kind of authority. It is not. In short, quit Godsplaining, Jeff.

 

[JeffinOakland]

I don't have to Google "what Christians believe" because I was a Christian. I was a Christian minister for 13 years, and before that I had been steeped in biblical study since I was a small child. You're using your opinion as a bludgeon, treating it like it's some kind of authority. It is not. In short, quit Godsplaining, Jeff.

I'm not "godsplaining" whatever that is. My knowledge of basic Christian doctrine is pretty sound. By basic, I mean BASIC, rock bottom very few simple things you need to believe in order to be a Christian. I used to be a Christian. Led a Bible study and everything. A Christian minister friend of mine put it very well in saying Christianity is simultaneously inclusive and exclusive. Anyone can join...but only if they accept God as their creator & Jesus as their savior. That's why I left. I couldn't accept that Jesus was the son of a god I no longer believed existed. I knew I wasn't really a Christian. Anyway, all this is beside the point. I'm never going to change your mind.

 

[Amaris]

I'm not "godsplaining" whatever that is. My knowledge of basic Christian doctrine is pretty sound. By basic, I mean BASIC, rock bottom very few simple things you need to believe in order to be a Christian. I used to be a Christian. Led a Bible study and everything. A Christian minister friend of mine put it very well in saying Christianity is simultaneously inclusive and exclusive. Anyone can join...but only if they accept God as their creator & Jesus as their savior. That's why I left. I couldn't accept that Jesus was the son of a god I no longer believed existed. I knew I wasn't really a Christian. Anyway, all this is beside the point. I'm never going to change your mind.

Good luck to you.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Schism -- fight, fight, fight! Crusade, jihad, fatwah, wah wah wah, whatever...
Sad!

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I thought God was infinite love; what does he need with Hell?

I guess someone thought Christianity had too many carrots and not enough sticks.

I appreciate the efforts of @thestrangequark and @Coloratura in discussing the evolution of religions, but some people understand the ship of Theseus and some people don't.

 

[thestrangequark]

I guess someone thought Christianity had too many carrots and not enough sticks.

I appreciate the efforts @thestrangequark and @Coloratura in discussing the evolution of religions, but some people understand the ship of Theseus and some people don't.

The ship has sailed...

Seriously, though, I am fascinated by religion and love discussing it. But @JeffinOakland , I don't see where to go from here. You seem unwilling to accept basic truths and are adamant about your version of religion, which is weird, as you say you've left it. You're not making any sense: simultaneously claiming one true Christianity whilst also claiming it is false.

 

[Theophilus]

I think C.S. Lewis said it best when he described Hell as a place where the doors are locked from the inside.

He wrote an excellent work of sci-fi/ fantasy explaining what he meant in a book called "The Great Divorce".