Did Sisko ever forgive Picard?

[retroenzo]

We saw how cold Sisko was towards Picard near the start of 'Emissary' and it was completely understandable too. After all, the last time Sisko saw Picard, it was at Wolf 359 and Picard (as Locutus) caused the death of Jennifer.

At the end of the episode though, Sisko seems a little warmer towards Picard, but I'm not sure if he has fully forgiven him. Has he managed to separate Picard and Locutus in his own mind?

(By the way, on a related note, I loved Patrick Stewart's face as Sisko growls 'We met in battle at Wolf 359' at him.)

 

[stardream]

I don't understand why people were angry at former Borg, to begin with. They had no free will. We see in other episodes people being forgiven for being victims of mind control with a simple 'It wasn't your fault' but when it comes to the Borg for some reason people are allowed to hold a grudge.

I can understand Sisko being angry at the Borg and angry at the situation but knowing Picard's full story so why should he be angry at Picard individually? Never could understand that, or Torres getting all up in Seven's face on Voyager. The drones, including Locutus, were also victims.

 

[locutus101]

We saw how cold Sisko was towards Picard near the start of 'Emissary' and it was completely understandable too. After all, the last time Sisko saw Picard, it was at Wolf 359 and Picard (as Locutus) caused the death of Jennifer.

At the end of the episode though, Sisko seems a little warmer towards Picard, but I'm not sure if he has fully forgiven him. Has he managed to separate Picard and Locutus in his own mind?

(By the way, on a related note, I loved Patrick Stewart's face as Sisko growls 'We met in battle at Wolf 359' at him.)

To tell things as they are Sisko is a complete moron on that one, in light of the fact that Picard was not in control during these events. Sisko had no right to say those things to Picard. He didn't even have the excuse of being under shock, like he would have days after it happened. he had time to think back on those events. That's the problem with Sisko, most of the time he's written as an intelligent responsible man but at times he's a pure lunatic, like the time when he dropped poison on maquis colonies. He should have been tried for attempted mass murder. If I was a victim like Picard was and if some asshole had said something similar to me. I wouldn't have let him get away with that.

 

[Spot261]

I can understand Sisko being angry at the Borg and angry at the situation but knowing Picard's full story so why should he be angry at Picard individually? Never could understand that, or Torres getting all up in Seven's face on Voyager. The drones, including Locutus, were also victims.

To illustrate how irrational human hatred is I suppose. People commonly bear incredibly heartfelt grudges against entire ethnicities, nations, religious groups, political movements, anything frankly, based on no more than the historical actions of the most remotely related individuals. Wars are fought at a low level for centuries because of unremembered events in the distant past. People are abused and prejudiced against because someone who might have known their great grandparents was ordered to do something. Exactly the sort of behaviour ST strives to warn us about.

To tell things as they are Sisko is a complete moron on that one, in light of the fact that Picard was not in control during these events. Sisko had no right to say those things to Picard. He didn't even have the excuse of being under shock, like he would have days after it happened. he had time to think back on those events.

Again, because no matter how society moves on, people in the 24th century are still basically the same animals they are now. The dangers of bigotry and hatred are still there and even a starfleet commander (or captain) is not immune, as Picard himself has demonstrated.

 

[retroenzo]

The problem is I can imagine that whenever Sisko thought of Jennifer, he also pictured Locutus's face and even several years down the line I can imagine that mental association is hard to shift. Sisko is rational, but when he saw Picard for the first time as Picard, it would have brought the memories of Wolf 359 flooding straight back, including the face of Locutus on the viewscreen.

Sisko obviously realised that Picard was also a victim through the course of the pilot and rationalised that the man he'd been talking to in the Enterprise observation lounge wasn't the same man who'd killed his wife. So when he met him at the end of the episode he treated him as the captain of the Enterprise-D instead.

 

[Tosk]

I don't understand why people were angry at former Borg, to begin with.

Because Sisko was in a bad place mentally. I'd be more surprised if he hadn't acted oddly around Picard. If someone was brainwashed and killed your family, you think you'd really be out playing tennis with them once they were reprogrammed?

Sisko had no right to say those things to Picard.

Poor Picard. What exactly did Sisko say that was so reprehensible?

SISKO: It's been a long time, Captain.
PICARD: Have we met before?
SISKO: Yes, sir. We met in battle. I was on the Saratoga at Wolf 359.
PICARD: I assume that you have been briefed on the events leading to the Cardassian withdrawal?
SISKO: Yes, sir. I understand they've spent the last half century robbing the planet of every valuable resource before abandoning it.
PICARD: They've left the Bajorans without a means of being self-sustaining. The relief efforts we've been coordinating are barely adequate. I've come to know the Bajorans. I'm a strong proponents for their entry into the Federation.
SISKO: Is it going to happen?
PICARD: Not easily. The ruling parties are at each others throats. Factions that were united against the Cardassians have resumed old conflicts.
SISKO: Sounds like they're not ready.
PICARD: Your job is to do everything short of violating the Prime Directive to make sure that they are. I have been made aware by Starfleet of your objections to this assignment. I would have thought that after three years spent at the Utopia Planitia yards, that you would be ready for a change.
SISKO: I have a son that I'm raising alone, Captain. This is not the ideal environment.
PICARD: Unfortunately as Starfleet officers, we do not always have the luxury to serve in an ideal environment.
SISKO: I realise that, sir, and I'm investigating the possibility of returning to Earth for civilian service.
PICARD: Perhaps Starfleet Command should be considering a replacement for you.
SISKO: That's probably a good idea.
PICARD: I'll look into it. In the meantime however...
SISKO: In the meantime, I will do the job I've been ordered to do to the best of my ability, sir.
PICARD: Dismissed.

 

[Spot261]

I think it was more the tone than the content that made the cotempt plain

 

[retroenzo]

I think it was more the tone than the content that made the cotempt plain

He interrupts Picard to say 'In the meantime...' and injects anger into any time he says 'Sir'.

 

[locutus101]

Because Sisko was in a bad place mentally. I'd be more surprised if he hadn't acted oddly around Picard. If someone was brainwashed and killed your family, you think you'd really be out playing tennis with them once they were reprogrammed?

Poor Picard. What exactly did Sisko say that was so reprehensible?

SISKO: It's been a long time, Captain.
PICARD: Have we met before?
SISKO: Yes, sir. We met in battle. I was on the Saratoga at Wolf 359.
PICARD: I assume that you have been briefed on the events leading to the Cardassian withdrawal?
SISKO: Yes, sir. I understand they've spent the last half century robbing the planet of every valuable resource before abandoning it.
PICARD: They've left the Bajorans without a means of being self-sustaining. The relief efforts we've been coordinating are barely adequate. I've come to know the Bajorans. I'm a strong proponents for their entry into the Federation.
SISKO: Is it going to happen?
PICARD: Not easily. The ruling parties are at each others throats. Factions that were united against the Cardassians have resumed old conflicts.
SISKO: Sounds like they're not ready.
PICARD: Your job is to do everything short of violating the Prime Directive to make sure that they are. I have been made aware by Starfleet of your objections to this assignment. I would have thought that after three years spent at the Utopia Planitia yards, that you would be ready for a change.
SISKO: I have a son that I'm raising alone, Captain. This is not the ideal environment.
PICARD: Unfortunately as Starfleet officers, we do not always have the luxury to serve in an ideal environment.
SISKO: I realise that, sir, and I'm investigating the possibility of returning to Earth for civilian service.
PICARD: Perhaps Starfleet Command should be considering a replacement for you.
SISKO: That's probably a good idea.
PICARD: I'll look into it. In the meantime however...
SISKO: In the meantime, I will do the job I've been ordered to do to the best of my ability, sir.
PICARD: Dismissed.

Sisko's "we met in battle", is more than enough of an insult. He's an asshole. He's no better than people who shame rape victims.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

For being forced to lead the Borg, probably.

For not showing up to fight the Dominion, probably not.

 

[stardream]

My point is in every other instance in Star Trek when someone was a victim of mind control (even when people were killed, put the ship in danger, you name it) it was treated as "It wasn't your fault." This time, we have a Starfleet officer who has probably gone through some kind of seminar at Starfleet Academy on 'how to deal when aliens invade your friend's mind' should have known that and acted accordingly. I am surprised that he didn't undergo some kind of counseling that would help him through with this very thing. If nothing else he should have had a counselor in that very room when they first met.

It just seems inconsistent with what we saw in the other series is all I'm saying. Yes, Sisko has a right to feel whatever he wants but as a Starfleet officer he should know, on an intellectual level, that it was not Picard's fault and he should not be blamed.

 

[TheGoodStuff]

Sisko's "we met in battle", is more than enough of an insult. He's an asshole. He's no better than people who shame rape victims.

To be honest, I think that's nonsense. He isn't an 'asshole' and this is nothing even remotely similar to shaming of rape victims. This is more akin to someone with severe mental illnesses murdering your wife, recovering, and then being your superior officer [this analogy isn't perfect I know, but it somewhat works]. Expecting relations between both officers to be dandy just isn't realistic.

Sisko had to watch 'Picard' tell him he would be assimilated, he watched as his wife died as a result. Yes Picard was ultimately the victim but it is entirely understandable that Sisko would have deep-rooted trauma, disdain and anger directed towards Picard no matter how illogical that is: Sisko is rational but he isn't an android. He can't suppress the rawest of emotions. Picard, in a very literal form, is guilty by association.

I think Picard's reaction [wonderfully performed as always by Stewart] is very telling because he doesn't do what you say you would do in this thread ["not letting him get away with that" etc] instead he clearly realises that to Sisko, his face is a reminder of extreme loss & pain and thus just tries to get their meeting over with in a professional fashion. Picard has the intellect to realise what he represents to Sisko and tries his best to handle a very awkward situation as best as he can.

Because Sisko was in a bad place mentally. I'd be more surprised if he hadn't acted oddly around Picard. If someone was brainwashed and killed your family, you think you'd really be out playing tennis with them once they were reprogrammed?

This is exactly the point. It's easy to post on the internet in a hypothetical scenario about how friendly you would be with Picard, and how mean Big Bad Sisko is, but if in reality he helped kill someone you loved, no matter how innocent he was, many would find it very difficult to be anything but cordial with him. It isn't Picard's fault...but it isn't really Sisko's fault either. They are BOTH vicitms.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Yes Sisko has a right to feel whatever he wants but as a Starfleet officer he should know, on an intellectual level,

So, you're saying that Roddenberry's mumbo jumbo about our lack of emotional reaction should hold reign over real emotions?

 

[stardream]

So, you're saying that Roddenberry's mumbo jumbo about our lack of emotional reaction should hold reign over real emotions?

Not saying that at all. Sisko should feel grief and anger but at the same time he should have been prepared for this meeting with Picard.
Should Torres have berated Seven in Voyager for simply being a Borg?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Not saying that at all. Sisko should feel grief and anger but at the same time he should have been prepared for this meeting with Picard.
Should Torres have berated Seven in Voyager for simply being a Borg?

Humans have been dealing with extraordinary mental problems caused by war at least since Marathon. There is no reason to believe that somehow a little training is going to wipe that out.

 

[stardream]

Humans have been dealing with extraordinary mental problems caused by war at least since Marathon. There is no reason to believe that somehow a little training is going to wipe that out.

I know that. My son is a veteran of Operation Enduring Freedom and is on disability. I've seen it up close and personal. He still has the common sense to know that any random Arab or Muslim he might see on the street is not automatically the enemy or responsible for his problems.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

He still has the common sense to know that any random Arab or Muslim he might see on the street is not automatically the enemy or responsible for his problems.

Sisko cannot tell the difference between a human and a Borg? I must have missed that in all my viewings of the episode. What I saw was a man having a visceral reaction to the face of the thing that took his wife.

 

[TheGoodStuff]

My point is in every other instance in Star Trek when someone was a victim of mind control (even when people were killed, put the ship in danger, you name it) it was treated as "It wasn't your fault." This time, we have a Starfleet officer who has probably gone through some kind of seminar at Starfleet Academy on 'how to deal when aliens invade your friend's mind' should have known that and acted accordingly. I am surprised that he didn't undergo some kind of counseling that would help him through with this very thing. If nothing else he should have had a counselor in that very room when they first met.

It just seems inconsistent with what we saw in the other series is all I'm saying. Yes, Sisko has a right to feel whatever he wants but as a Starfleet officer he should know, on an intellectual level, that it was not Picard's fault and he should not be blamed.

See, the way I interpret it, is that Sisko isn't blaming Picard. He never actually says "you killed my wife, I hate you". What he does say is that he thinks DS9 is a crappy posting that he doesn't want [who can blame him?], that he is trying to raise a young son alone and that he and Picard met in battle. What is being said, if we read between the lines, is "I was at 359 while you were borg and I have resentment towards you for it" and simultaneously, Picard is thinking "this guy was at 359 whilst I was Locutus, I have probably helped kill some of his friends...or worse...". No ammount of Academy seminars are going to help prepare you for that eventuality. It is an amazingly awkward moment for both of them [perhaps one an Admiral should have stopped from happening].

An additional, interesting, thought is we have absolutely no idea how 359 was handled in Starfleet. We saw the events from the TNG point of view [DS9 is the first show to show the battle from a new perspective] but we have no idea how many other officers have...weird feelings about Picard. How many have been fully briefed on his assimilation and how assimilation actually works. If you look at it from Sisko's view, he might have:

1. Fought at 359, lost his wife and ship he was on...
2. Possibly been reassigned/returned to Earth...dealt with the funeral, dealt with his son's grief, tried to move on with his life...
3. Recieved a briefing/lecture on how the hero captain Picard was assimilated, wasn't acting under his own influence, so everything is cool.
4. Get's assigned to a wrecked Cardassian base above a planet that doesn't want him there. 10 minutes into the job, no doubt for the first time, meets the guy whom he last saw threatening him on a viewscreen minutes before his wife died as a result.

It really isn't an ideal scenario for Sisko.

 

[stardream]

perhaps one an Admiral should have stopped from happening

.

This is probably the basis of the point I have been trying to make. This meeting shouldn't have happened without some kind of...preparation. Someone else in the room. It was written so we could follow Sisko on his dark journey into the light which was fine but I didn't think we needed that face off with Picard to set it off.

Sisko cannot tell the difference between a human and a Borg? I must have missed that in all my viewings of the episode. What I saw was a man having a visceral reaction to the face of the thing that took his wife.

My point is I know what people face who have been to war.

 

[TheGoodStuff]

I know that. My son is a veteran of Operation Enduring Freedom and is on disability. I've seen it up close and personal. He still has the common sense to know that any random Arab or Muslim he might see on the street is not automatically the enemy or responsible for his problems.

That's the problem with your argument right there.

Picard isn't a random. If he had been a borg drone and whisked away somewhere else and had no part in 359 then I'm sure things would be different between him and Sisko [at least a smidge]. He isn't. He is the direct face of the attacker who was responsible for the death of Sisko's wife and crewmates.

To use your analogy, this is like a veteran in an APC being attacked by Al Qaeda troops, most dying, with the veteran who survives getting a good look at the face of the leader.

Two years later he bumps into the Al Qaeda guy, who has left the cause, and states how brainwashed he was by the group and didn't mean any of it. I think it is safe to say said veteran wouldn't smile, be chums and let the whole thing drop. [again, I don't think this example really compares but it is the one you used so I'm trying to create a vaguely similar scenario]