Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILERS

[Candlelight]

I always looked at it as the Doctor is a criminal - yes the show follows the bad guy - and the Time Lords are the "police". The Doctor fled Gallifrey and stole a rather important piece of technology, and broke several non-interference laws along the way (which of course accounted for nothing when the Time Lords threw the first stone in Genesis of the Daleks).

Naturally they would go after the Doctor at any opportunity (The War Games, The Trial of a Time Lord) and would also use him on occasion (Colony in Space, the aforementioned Genesis, The Five Doctors).

I never once thought of them as bad guys. Thus I was less than impressed by the display RTD gave them in The End of Time.

 

[tomalak301]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

I was a bit confused actually about the whole Time Lord thing. Perhaps it's just once again not really watching the classic series, but I thought they were supposed to be the Good Guys. In End of Time, they might have been worse than the Daleks, and given the series focuses on probably the most famous time lord, I was just kind of befuddled at the whole thing.

 

[The Wormhole]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

Although I've never watched the classic series, my understanding from what I've gathered is that the Time Lords at one point were the most enlightened race in the universe but were gradually corrupted until the Time War eventually pushed them over the edge.

Of course, I know a guy who is very familiar with the classic series, and he claims the Time Lords as depicted in The End of Time is very consistent with how they were depicted in the old shows.

 

[RoJoHen]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

Although I've never watched the classic series, my understanding from what I've gathered is that the Time Lords at one point were the most enlightened race in the universe but were gradually corrupted until the Time War eventually pushed them over the edge.

I don't know anything about the classic series, but this is how I saw it. I think they just got arrogant, and if I was a member of the most powerful race in the known universe, I could definitely see that happening. I think they got to a point in the Time War where they realized they would never win, and eventually it became a simple question of survival. Time Lords end Time and survive on another plane, or Time Lords wage a war for the rest of eternity. It was only the Doctor's love of humans that made him decide that the universe was worth saving.

 

[Captain Pike]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

In the classic series? No. Not really.

IMO, in the early days (The War Games through to The Three Doctors) they were most definitely benign cosmic guardians. By the time of The Deadly Assasin they had started to stagnate a bit and portions of timelord society were corrupt. Subsequent appearences tended more toward this trend, but by the time Colin Baker popped his head up and declared "Change my dear..." I'd stopped watching..

 

[diankra]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

The subtext of 'Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely,' and the Time Lords are as close to absolute power as you can get, is there in anything written by Robert Holmes (starting in Deadly Assassin, but there's hints as far back as Terror of the Autons, and it's made pretty clear in his bits of Trial of a Time Lord and - arguably - The Two Doctors). Of course that (to judge by the interviews he gave) is largely down to him misremembering the series's history, but once he'd written it onto the screen, it's there.

 

[Stevil2001]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

"Ten million years of absolute power - that's what it takes to be really corrupt."

 

[Starkers]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

I don't view them as neccesarily bad, but not neccesarily good either, for God's sake you can't quantify an entire species as bad. That makes about as much sense as saying all Americans are bad guys, or all Muslims, or all Britons or all French (actually that last one is true)

I think the Timelords are a people who have been at the top of the tree for a long time, had a superior culture and technology longer than most anyone else, and as such have all the arrogance that goes along with that. Their final solution to the Time War was extreme yes, but how enlightened a society would you have to be to actively allow yourselve to die out to save the universe?

 

[Jax]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

How does trying to wipe out time itself not make the Time Lords bad guys ? They probably fought the war in the start to preserve all life and then to save there own asses they were willing to wipe out everything.

BAD as you can get.

 

[RoJoHen]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

How does trying to wipe out time itself not make the Time Lords bad guys ? They probably fought the war in the start to preserve all life and then to save there own asses they were willing to wipe out everything.

BAD as you can get.

Sure, but if the Doctor was against it, it stands to reason that some other Time Lords were against it, too. So maybe just the leaders were the bad guys...who knows?

 

[jamestyler]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

I always saw them as a shade of grey n the original series. The Doctor was the free spirited outcast type, and they were the dour faced government.

The RTD version seen recently may as well have all been twiddling their mustaches, but given the context they were in... I'd be batshit crazy too.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

I always saw them as a shade of grey n the original series. The Doctor was the free spirited outcast type, and they were the dour faced government.

The RTD version seen recently may as well have all been twiddling their mustaches, but given the context they were in... I'd be batshit crazy too.

This pretty much sums up my feelings about the Time Lords as a whole. There's always exceptions to either side. Romana, Drax, Rodan, K'anpo Rimpoche, and Spandrell were all benevolent characters where as The Master, The Rani, Borusa in his latter appearances, Goth, Maxil and The War Chief were all malevolent characters.

 

[Jax]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

How does trying to wipe out time itself not make the Time Lords bad guys ? They probably fought the war in the start to preserve all life and then to save there own asses they were willing to wipe out everything.

BAD as you can get.

Sure, but if the Doctor was against it, it stands to reason that some other Time Lords were against it, too. So maybe just the leaders were the bad guys...who knows?

Only 2 people voted against it as mentioned in "emd of time" part 2.

 

[Starkers]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

Yes and somebody else who disented was vaporised by Rassilon!

Besides, chickens don't vote for Christmas!

 

[USS KG5]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

Sure, but if the Doctor was against it, it stands to reason that some other Time Lords were against it, too. So maybe just the leaders were the bad guys...who knows?

Well the episode actually points out two Time Lords out of the decision makers who were against it, so clearly the whole race is not irredeemable.

The episodes really did cover this stuff, look at the end of Waters Of Mars.

 

[ParticleMan]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

I'd be hard pressed to judge the entirety of the Time Lord society based on what we saw of them in The End of Time...they were at the absolute brink of destruction...hours away from death, Dalek hordes probably knocking on the door...desperation + survival instinct + being trapped in the Time Lock + millenia of near-absolute power = madness and REALLY bad decision making...

 

[23skidoo]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

I wouldn't call them bad guys, anymore than I would call The Q in Star Trek "bad guys". They simply work on a level that's above most other races and therefore they display an omnipotence that renders them, at times, dangerous.

Certainly the original series never really painted them as "baddies" so much, except for the occasional bad egg like Borusa and Omega. I think the point made in End of Time is that they became corrupted in some way due to the war, or Rassilon's influence, or whatever. (Even in the novels, we had Romana regenerating into a new incarnation that wasn't particularly a nice person). They became corrupted so badly that the Doctor had to stop them. But as we saw with the mysterious Woman, not all of the Time Lords were bad.

I certainly wouldn't put them in the same category as the Daleks, at any rate.

Alex

 

[knine]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

While I don't see them as bad guys running around trying to make this and that worse like the Master, I can see many beleiving the same a Lord President and selfishly not wanting a billion years of Time Lord history to end.

The Daleks were just plain evil and wanted everything for themselves. The Time Lords were more "desperate times call for desperate measures" and only willing to give so much before they were going to do what they had to do to survive which pushed them over the edge.

 

[Tom]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

The goverment of the Time Lords clearly went corrupt in Trial of a Timelord, there was the whole Ravalox plot, then letting the Valeyard put the Doctor on trial so he could get the remainder of his regenerations. You could blame the Doctor for some of this as he was offered the position of president after the Barusa ordeal. Instead, the Doctor ran off yet again, and god knows who (were not sure it was Flavia?) took over in his place, but we know things got worse, as we saw in TOATL.

Then the Doctor did finally come back to help fight the Daleks but the government was already corrupt and getting worse, first trying to resurect the Master then ressurecting Rassilon himself. Finally leading to the End of Time solution, not caring for the rest of the universe and staying time-locked, just themselves. And Rassilon was not just to blame, there were hundereds of Timelords in the chamber when the vote was taken and only 2 decented. This was the path RTD was trying to take with the Timelords.

 

[DS9Continuing]

Re: Did anyone else NOT view the Time Lords as the "bad guys"? SPOILER

I think the Timelords are a people who have been at the top of the tree for a long time, had a superior culture and technology longer than most anyone else, and as such have all the arrogance that goes along with that. Their final solution to the Time War was extreme yes, but how enlightened a society would you have to be to actively allow yourselve to die out to save the universe?

The episodes really did cover this stuff, look at the end of Waters Of Mars.

Exactly - this entire issue is in fact the "arc" of the Specials season -the arrogance of the Time Lord.

In "The Next Doctor," 10 is faced with a man who desperately wants to be the Doctor because to be the Doctor is such a wonderful thing, and who gets the whole of London cheering that the Doctor is a hero and a saviour. This boosts 10's ego after a breakdown in "Journey's End."

In "Planet of the Dead," there's another fanboy telling him "you're bloody fantastic, you are." The story ends with 10 first of all sticking to the rules by turning Christina over to the police. But then changes his mind and decides he's above the law, and uses his power to set her free with a new toy she absolutely should not have.

"The Waters of Mars" is completely about this - the dichotomy between knowing he has to power to change things, and knowing that he shouldn't. He finally decides he's above all the rules of time and space, that those rules don't apply to him, and that he can do whatever the hell he wants, regardless of the effects on "the little people" (who really ought to be grateful for his help, shouldn't they?) because there's no-one with the power to stop him.

And finally in "The End of Time," we get the ultimate end-point of that mindset. The Time Lords consider themselves above the rules because, as you say, they've been at the top of the tree for so long and no-one can tell them "no." And confronted with a whole planet's-worth of arrogant Time Lords, he realizes that he's become as bad as they were, and he has to stop both them, and himself.