David Marcus - What did Kirk know and when did he know it?

[JonnyQuest037]

(Mods: This is a question the originates in the movies, but it also hits on TOS, the novels, and the comics, so I put it in General Trek. If you disagree that it belongs here, please feel free to move it.)

TWOK is the first time that viewers became aware that James T. Kirk had a son, David Marcus, with his old flame Carol Marcus. But it's a little unclear exactly when Kirk found out about David. He knows that Carol has a son by that name, but Kirk obviously doesn't know David well enough to recognize him in the Genesis Cave ("Is that David?"). Kirk and Carol's private conversation afterwards (added during reshoots to clarify things) is still ambiguous at best:

KIRK: I did what you wanted. ...I stayed away. ...Why didn't you tell me?
CAROL: How can you ask me that? Were we together? Were we going to be? You had your world and I had mine. And I wanted him in mine, not chasing through the universe with his father. ... Actually, he's a lot like you. In many ways. Please tell me what you're feeling.
KIRK: There's a man out there I haven't seen in fifteen years who's trying to kill me. You show me a son that'd be happy to help him. My son. ...My life that could have been, ...and wasn't. And what am I feeling? ...Old. ...Worn out.

So we know that Jim and Carol had a bad breakup with hurt feelings on both sides. And Carol, afraid that David would follow in his father's footsteps, asked Kirk to stay away, out of their lives and her son's upbringing. But it's not really clear from the movie when that occurred. Was it when she was pregnant with David? After he was born? At some point during his childhood?

Another factor to consider is that Carol Marcus is previously acquainted with both Spock and McCoy and that both of them are aware of her significance to Kirk. McCoy reacts when he hears her name in the turbolift ("It never rains but it pours.") and Spock reacts to her on sight when they're viewing the Genesis proposal in Kirk's quarters ("Carol Marcus." "...Yes.").

Carol and Spock are also reintroduced to each other in the transporter room, and she greets him in a friendly manner:

KIRK: Come, come, Lieutenant, you of all people go by the book. Spock! You remember Doctor Marcus.
SPOCK: Why, of course.
CAROL: Hello, Mister Spock.

David definitely seems to find out about that Kirk is his father at some point during TWOK, but even he seems to have had a previous encounter with Kirk:

DAVID: Every time we have dealings with Starfleet, I get nervous. ...We are dealing with something that could be perverted into a dreadful weapon. Remember that overgrown Boy Scout you used to hang around with? That's exactly the kind of man...
CAROL: Listen, kiddo, Jim Kirk was many things, but he was never a Boy Scout!

Kirk didn't ever act like a man who knew he had a son somewhere out there during the run of TOS, but some of the novel and comics writers (including D.C. Fontana) have done stories where that's the case. Trek comic book writer Glenn Greenberg told me that Michael Jan Friedman's 1992 novel Faces of Fire is a post-TOS story that depicts Kirk finding out about David, who is a young boy during the story, and that Spock deduces their father/son relationship over the course of the book. I haven't read the novel, but it sounds like it fits the available facts.

So... the question for everyone is: What did Kirk know, and when did he know it? Is he a deadbeat dad, or did Carol leave him in the dark about David for years? Did he meet David as a child at some point before TWOK? Was he there for his son's birth, or was he long gone by then? Did he find out about David before TOS, during TOS, after TOS? Maybe even some time between TMP and TWOK? And have any of you changed your mind on this question over the years?

 

[BillJ]

He knows David's name, as he asks right after their tussle "is that David?"

So sometime prior to TWOK. But when he finds out is anyone's guess.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

He knows David's name, as he asks right after their tussle "is that David?"

So sometime prior to TWOK. But when he finds out is anyone's guess.

/thread

 

[Kirk Prime]

It's a good question. I think one question should be "How old was David?"

So according to Memory Alpha, he was born in 2261. Died in 2285.

The 5 year mission started in 2266.

Kirk was born in 2233. So he would have been 28 when David was born. He got command of the Enterprise around 2265 give or take. So he would have met Carol when he was out of the academy, but on either the Farragut or the Republic. More likely though, he took time between the Farragut/Republic era to be an instructor at the academy, where Mitchell could have sent that blonde scientist his way. Makes some sense even though that's not canon.

Carol would have known that despite their relationship, Kirk's first love was his ship and his best destiny was command. A man that gets promoted to captain that quickly is a superstar. He would have been a natural talent that was driven and someone that could rise through the ranks quickly. Someone whose drive was matched only by his deeds.

It's clear Carol told Kirk, and it sounds like Kirk offered to raise David. Kirk wouldn't walk away from a responsibility like that. It's not in his nature. At the same time, Kirk would not force himself into Carol's life--especially when she is insisting the exact opposite.

Kirk's father was in Starfleet, and that would mean George was away a lot. Kirk of course followed in his father's footsteps, and Carol didn't want that influence in David's life, right or wrong.

So I would believe that Kirk always knew of David, and respected Carol's wishes, even at his own expense. With Kirk's duty to Starfleet, it wasn't like he was going to be there all the time anyway, and Carol wouldn't have wanted a man to give up that kind of potential when it clearly wasn't needed.

 

[1001001]

He found out the Tuesday before his birthday. That's why he was so cranky with Bones.

It was about 4:37 in the afternoon.

 

[DonIago]

Hmm...reading the lines literally, it could be that Carol asked Jim to stay away, but didn't tell him exactly why she wanted him to stay away. He may have subsequently met David a few times and maybe even had suspicions, but perhaps he never asked and Carol never volunteered who David's father was.

As she herself said, they weren't going to stay together anyway, so a break-up seems inevitable, and it would hardly be the first time one ex asked another to keep their distance.

 

[Leto_II]

.

Kirk didn't ever act like a man who knew he had a son somewhere out there during the run of TOS, but some of the novel and comics writers (including D.C. Fontana) have done stories where that's the case. Trek comic book writer Glenn Greenberg told me that Michael Jan Friedman's 1992 novel Faces of Fire is a post-TOS story that depicts Kirk finding out about David, who is a young boy during the story, and that Spock deduces their father/son relationship over the course of the book. I haven't read the novel, but it sounds like it fits the available facts

Actually, Faces of Fire is set roughly halfway into the Enterprise's original 5YM, circa early 2268 (I think right before the TOS episode "The Immunity Syndrome," according to internal storyline-cues). But yup -- Greenberg is exactly right, re: Spock, David, and Kirk's relationship during the course of the book (also, McCoy has some great scenes, too).

The Vanguard series also deals to a certain extent with the whole "Carol/David" situation, since she gets posted to Starbase 47 a bit after the events of Faces of Fire to oversee Operation Vanguard there.

 

[UssGlenn]

This is what I've got so far:
Kirk and Carol meet while Kirk is an instructor at the Academy, She's the Blonde Lab Tech. She doesn't tell him she's pregnant when he gets assigned back to starship duty. They encounter each other again during a mission we don't see during TOS. This is when Spock and McCoy meet her, near the end of the 5 year mission. She and Kirk give it another go while Kirk is an Admiral before TMP, in fact Carol is part of the reason he decided to take a desk job. This is when David meets him. Carol doesn't tell Kirk or David that they are father and son, in case things don't work out (she doesn't want him staying out of a misplaced sense of duty). Things don't work out and Kirk goes back to Starship duty. Carol tells Kirk to stay away because David had started to get attached and him popping in occasionally would only make that more difficult. Kirk's line "Why didn't you tell me?" references the fact that he just now realized that David was actually his son, probably seeing the family resemblance now that David is an adult. Carol's line "Were we together? Were we going to be?" references Kirk's leaving while she was pregnant, not their subsequent reunion while David was young.

 

[Push The Button]

"My son, the doctor."

 

[The Old Mixer]

KIRK: I did what you wanted. ...I stayed away. ...Why didn't you tell me?

Kirk's line "Why didn't you tell me?"

The line was "Why didn't you tell him?" (Why didn't she tell David that Kirk was his father.) This implies that Kirk knew about David early in his life, and was expecting Carol to tell him who his father was by adulthood.

He found out the Tuesday before his birthday. That's why he was so cranky with Bones.

It was about 4:37 in the afternoon.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[JonnyQuest037]

He found out the Tuesday before his birthday. That's why he was so cranky with Bones.

It was about 4:37 in the afternoon.

CAROL: "Jim, my birth control... won't be here until Tuesday."

Actually, Faces of Fire is set roughly halfway into the Enterprise's original 5YM, circa early 2268 (I think right before the TOS episode "The Immunity Syndrome," according to internal storyline-cues). But yup -- Greenberg is exactly right, re: Spock, David, and Kirk's relationship during the course of the book (also, McCoy has some great scenes, too).

Thanks for the clarification. I need to track down a copy of that book so I can read it for myself.

The Vanguard series also deals to a certain extent with the whole "Carol/David" situation, since she gets posted to Starbase 47 a bit after the events of Faces of Fire to oversee Operation Vanguard there.

Vanguard I still haven't read beyond the first book. I got them all a few years back, though.

This is what I've got so far:
Kirk and Carol meet while Kirk is an instructor at the Academy, She's the Blonde Lab Tech. She doesn't tell him she's pregnant when he gets assigned back to starship duty. They encounter each other again during a mission we don't see during TOS. This is when Spock and McCoy meet her, near the end of the 5 year mission. She and Kirk give it another go while Kirk is an Admiral before TMP, in fact Carol is part of the reason he decided to take a desk job. This is when David meets him. Carol doesn't tell Kirk or David that they are father and son, in case things don't work out (she doesn't want him staying out of a misplaced sense of duty). Things don't work out and Kirk goes back to Starship duty. Carol tells Kirk to stay away because David had started to get attached and him popping in occasionally would only make that more difficult. Kirk's line "Why didn't you tell me?" references the fact that he just now realized that David was actually his son, probably seeing the family resemblance now that David is an adult. Carol's line "Were we together? Were we going to be?" references Kirk's leaving while she was pregnant, not their subsequent reunion while David was young.

I like this theory a lot. It fits in well with the available facts, and it makes the Kirk/Carol relationship even more interesting. Well done.

The line was "Why didn't you tell him?" (Why didn't she tell David that Kirk was his father.) This implies that Kirk knew about David early in his life, and was expecting Carol to tell him who his father was by adulthood.

I just watched the scene again, and it's really tough to tell if Shatner is saying "me" or "him" at the end of his line. He's playing the scene very quietly, and he kind of trails off at the end there:

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Now that I'm listening for it, it does sound more like "him," though.

My copy of the TWOK script, a 1994 reprint from the Premiere magazine Movie Script Library, says "me." My understanding was that the original scripted line was "him," but it was changed to "me" during the reshoots. (Parmount execs wanted the relationship clarified.)

I suppose I should pop in my Director's Cut BluRay and see what the closed captioning says. Hang on...

...Okay. According to the subtitles, Kirk says, "him." Star Trek Script Search has it as "me," though. It doesn't seem like there's much of a consensus. Too bad, because that one pronoun really changes the meaning of the scene.

Speaking of "not much of a consensus," the voting is currently at 4 for "Before TOS," 3 for "After TOS," and 2 for "During TWOK." Interesting.

I voted for "After TOS," BTW. It just makes the most sense to me.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Carol would have known that despite their relationship, Kirk's first love was his ship and his best destiny was command. A man that gets promoted to captain that quickly is a superstar. He would have been a natural talent that was driven and someone that could rise through the ranks quickly. Someone whose drive was matched only by his deeds.

It's clear Carol told Kirk, and it sounds like Kirk offered to raise David. Kirk wouldn't walk away from a responsibility like that. It's not in his nature. At the same time, Kirk would not force himself into Carol's life--especially when she is insisting the exact opposite.

You know... Thinking of the history in this light, with Kirk having to decide between his dream of commanding a starship and starting a family, and Carol having to decide whether or not to reveal the truth to Jim and David, it occurs to me that both Kirk and Carol faced a "No-Win Scenario" before. No matter what they decided in their respective situations, someone was unhappy. There was no way to have it all.

 

[lawman]

I think "why didn't you tell him" just makes more sense. Especially since it's clear from previous scenes that David doesn't know Kirk is his father, and moreover (IMHO) Carol isn't the sort of devious person who would keep that kind of information from Kirk.

FWIW, the Chakoteya transcript site also has the line that way: http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie2.html

 

[Tosk]

Now that I'm listening for it, it does sound more like "him," though.

Watch his mouth too...no way that's a "me" mouth movement.

 

[GNDN18]

I took it for granted that Kirk said “me.” I believe he says “him” now. Even so, it’s inconclusive that he knew he was David’s father until that moment. It’s possible that Kirk—who might have harbored suspicions—was more concerned about his new-found son than he was hurt by the lack of disclosure or shocked by revelation.

It’s a complicated scene with a nuanced performance by Shatner. I appreciate the multiple interpretations that can be made.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I think it's pretty obvious in the entire way that the scene is played that Kirk knew he had a son named David with Carol...the surprise was in not realizing that the man he got in a tussle with was David, because he'd either never met David or hadn't seem him since he was much younger.

 

[Longinus]

I think it's pretty obvious in the entire way that the scene is played that Kirk knew he had a son named David with Carol...the surprise was in not realizing that the man he got in a tussle with was David, because he'd either never met David or hadn't seem him since he was much younger.

Yep. It makes way more sense that way.

 

[Shawnster]

Interesting that David knew his mother dated a Starfleet officer, but didn't seem to remember his name

DAVID: Every time we have dealings with Starfleet, I get nervous. ...We are dealing with something that could be perverted into a dreadful weapon. Remember that overgrown Boy Scout you used to hang around with? That's exactly the kind of man...
CAROL: Listen, kiddo, Jim Kirk was many things, but he was never a Boy Scout!

Despite the later non canon interpretations, I always had the feeling Carol was never in Starfleet.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Carol told Jim about David, right away, there's no question about that. And then, Jim's all like, "... we don't use money anymore, so your aim isn't child support -- obviously -- AND you want to raise this kid on your own, no involvement from me. Carol, I have to say it: you're the perfect woman ..."

 

[Greg Cox]

Interesting that David knew his mother dated a Starfleet officer, but didn't seem to remember his name

DAVID: Every time we have dealings with Starfleet, I get nervous. ...We are dealing with something that could be perverted into a dreadful weapon. Remember that overgrown Boy Scout you used to hang around with? That's exactly the kind of man...
CAROL: Listen, kiddo, Jim Kirk was many things, but he was never a Boy Scout!

Despite the later non canon interpretations, I always had the feeling Carol was never in Starfleet.

I don't read that as David not knowing his name, just him not using it. Either because he deliberately avoided mentioning Kirk's name or just because he was being conversational. It's not like people always use proper nouns when referring to people, especially if there are touchy issues or emotions involved.

:"Oh, great, it's my ex . . . "

"You're not going to guess what my douchebag boss did today."

"Has anybody seen my roommate?"

"Remember that overgrown Boy Scout you dated back in the eighties?"

That's just how people talk sometimes.