David Gerrold finally speaking out about TNG behind-the-scenes

[Phantom]

I stumbled across this on FB and was fascinated to finally get even a taste of the details.

https://www.facebook.com/david.gerrold/posts/10205856353860367

I'd read such a book (if he and Cushman ever get around to writing it). I wonder how much it would confirm some of the information in "Chaos on the Bridge" and "Behind the Face".

 

[suarezguy]

Re: David Gerrald finally speaking out about TNG behind-the-scenes

That he was litigious seems not subjective and an odd thing to complain about but I guess it's true we don't have much of his side of the story. From what I have read Robert Justman seems the only other developer aside from Roddenberry to have a case as co-creator.

I also certainly disagree that even in TNG Season 1, let alone what followed, lacked substance or were greatly stifled.

 

[BeatleJWOL]

Re: David Gerrald finally speaking out about TNG behind-the-scenes

So we lost David Gerrold and got Ronald D. Moore?

Fair trade, I guess!

 

[Karzak]

Re: David Gerrald finally speaking out about TNG behind-the-scenes

If there's an interview out there where Gerrold doesn't spend the whole time congratulating himself for all his "brilliant" ideas that were either used or ignored, patting himself on the back for being the "only" person who "knows" Star Trek, or an interview where he doesn't take the opportunity to badmouth others (Berman, Maizlish, etc.) at every opportunity , I have yet to find it.

I get that he's a luminary in the TOS pantheon, and I totally believe in the possibility that Rick Berman and Leonard Maizlish may be awful people, but Christ on a pogo stick. Boo hoo, he wasn't a showrunner on TNG. Let's just ignore the fact that he'd never run a live-action series before. Let's ignore the fact that the subsequent seasons of TNG saw it rise to become an even bigger success than TOS, and that it spawned not one, not two, but three sequel television series and another four films. The quality as it went on obviously, is up for debate. But it's important to remember that TNG wasn't some god awful piece of trash show after Gerrold left.

Wash, rinse, repeat. That's the David Gerrold interview process.

Lastly, Marc Cushman is a hack and a lazy writer whose inattention to detail has led to three volumes of work with specious and faulty information throughout and who has likewise demonstrated repeatedly a pathological inability to correct his information when called out on it. Fuck that guy.

 

[BillJ]

Re: David Gerrald finally speaking out about TNG behind-the-scenes

If there's an interview out there where Gerrold doesn't spend the whole time congratulating himself for all his "brilliant" ideas that were either used or ignored, patting himself on the back for being the "only" person who "knows" Star Trek, or an interview where he doesn't take the opportunity to badmouth others (Berman, Maizlish, etc.) at every opportunity , I have yet to find it.

I get that he's a luminary in the TOS pantheon, and I totally believe in the possibility that Rick Berman and Leonard Maizlish may be awful people, but Christ on a pogo stick. Boo hoo, he wasn't a showrunner on TNG. Let's just ignore the fact that he'd never run a live-action series before. Let's ignore the fact that the subsequent seasons of TNG saw it rise to become an even bigger success than TOS, and that it spawned not one, not two, but three sequel television series and another four films. The quality as it went on obviously, is up for debate. But it's important to remember that TNG wasn't some god awful piece of trash show after Gerrold left.

Wash, rinse, repeat. That's the David Gerrold interview process.

Lastly, Marc Cushman is a hack and a lazy writer whose inattention to detail has led to three volumes of work with specious and faulty information throughout and who has likewise demonstrated repeatedly a pathological inability to correct his information when called out on it. Fuck that guy.

C'mon. Tell us how you really feel!

 

[Mudd]

Re: David Gerrald finally speaking out about TNG behind-the-scenes

Yep.

 

[Christopher]

Re: David Gerrald finally speaking out about TNG behind-the-scenes

From what I have read Robert Justman seems the only other developer aside from Roddenberry to have a case as co-creator.

According to WGA rules:

1. "Created by" Credit Determination.
The WGA-determined "Created by" credit also determines the writer's eligibility for separated rights in a series. The "Created by" credit on a series is not determined until there is a series order. There are two ways a writer becomes eligible to seek "Created by" credit on an original series:

a. a writer writes a format for the series; or
b. a writer receives "Story by" or "Written by" credit on the pilot episode of the series.
​

To determine the "Created by" credit on an original episodic series, there must first be a final determination of credits on the pilot episode of the series.
Generally, if no format has been written for the series, the "Created by" credit will go to the writer(s) who received the "Story by" or "Written by" credit on the pilot. If a format has been written, a Separation of Rights arbitration may be required following the final credit determination on the pilot.

Now, my understanding is that David Gerrold wrote the first draft of the TNG bible (with input from Roddenberry, Justman, and Fontana), which would entitle him to creator credit under provision a -- most likely alongside Roddenberry, who also did a draft of the bible. And the credited writers on "Encounter at Farpoint" were D.C. Fontana and Gene Roddenberry, so Fontana could've been eligible for creator credit alongside Roddenberry under provision b. (Note that every other distinct Trek series -- counting TAS as a continuation of TOS -- gives the creator credit to the writer(s) of the pilot.)

And there are a number of elements in TNG that are recognizable from Gerrold's earlier writings. In The World of Star Trek, he proposed that the captain should stay on the ship and a dedicated "contact team" should go on away missions. In his 1980 Bantam Trek novel The Galactic Whirlpool, he mentioned a character named George La Forge (the name of a famous disabled fan) and depicted transporter-based food synthesizers that were basically replicators.

According to a 1994 letter by Gerrold:

The Guild looked over the matter and said that Gene's rights to the created by credit were protected because the show was a spinoff of Star Trek.

Which is odd, because none of the later Trek series assigned creator credit in that way. They just had a "Based upon Star Trek Created by Gene Roddenberry" credit along with a distinct credit for the shows' actual developers (DS9: Rick Berman & Michael Piller; VGR: Berman, Piller, and Jeri Taylor; ENT: Berman & Brannon Braga). And I've seen plenty of other spinoffs that had different creator credits from their parent programs. For instance, Buffy the Vampire Slayer was created by Joss Whedon, while Angel was created by Whedon and David Greenwalt. And Stargate SG-1 was developed for television by Jonathan Glassner and Brad Wright, while Stargate Atlantis and Stargate Universe were created by Wright and Robert C. Cooper. So the Guild's decision in this case seems anomalous.

I also certainly disagree that even in TNG Season 1, let alone what followed, lacked substance or were greatly stifled.

Compared to commercial TV in general, no. Compared to what writers can do in prose or another format where they can work unfettered? Undoubtedly yes.

 

[Phantom]

Re: David Gerrald finally speaking out about TNG behind-the-scenes

If he and Fontanna were (as they allege) already doing the work of producers, then they should have gotten producer credit. That Maizlish (sp?) was sticking his nose into things he had no business doing is well known going back to that time.

If GR, Berman, Maizlish (sp?) and Paramount blackballed Gerrald to the point he couldn't get work, that's obviously wrong.

Unfortunately, I can see that happening easily. GR as we now know was basically a sleezeball who constantly fought with the studios (among his many other crimes/sins) and his galaxy-size ego just seemed to build even as his drug-burned brain deteriorated.

I think it's long past time Gerrald started defending himself. He's been bad-mouthed by the insiders all these years, so it's only fair he gets his side of things out in the open.

 

[Christopher]

Re: David Gerrald finally speaking out about TNG behind-the-scenes

If he and Fontanna were (as they allege) already doing the work of producers, then they should have gotten producer credit.

Fontana was credited as associate producer on the first 12 episodes of TNG.

I think it's long past time Gerrald started defending himself. He's been bad-mouthed by the insiders all these years, so it's only fair he gets his side of things out in the open.

Gerrold has been defending himself for a long time. As I said, that letter I linked to above was from 1994, fully 21 years ago.

 

[Phantom]

Re: David Gerrald finally speaking out about TNG behind-the-scenes

He defended himself through the Guild actions, etc, but he said very little about what was actually done to him. His FB post is the first time I'd heard anything about blackballing or specific allegations re Berman.

Again, it doesn't surprise me per se...the real nature of GR is now pretty clear to anyone who looks outside the "authorized bios" (aka "puff piece propaganda").

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Re: David Gerrald finally speaking out about TNG behind-the-scenes

He defended himself through the Guild actions, etc, but he said very little about what was actually done to him. His FB post is the first time I'd heard anything about blackballing or specific allegations re Berman.

Again, it doesn't surprise me per se...the real nature of GR is now pretty clear to anyone who looks outside the "authorized bios" (aka "puff piece propaganda").

Gerrold also talks about it here: http://www.missionlogpodcast.com/another-one-with-david-gerrold/

 

[Karzak]

That episode of Mission Log is the perfect example of what I was talking about in my last post.

I love the guys at Mission Log and they do a great job with their show, but man, I wish someone had held Gerrold's balls to the fire a bit the way they did with Bob Orci a couple years ago. Of course, I don't know if Gerrold would be willing to do an interview like that. (Again, I've yet to see, read or hear anything of the kind.)

Finally, I do have to give props to Rod for letting Gerrold mouth off as he does about Gene. A lot of people would only want whitewashed accounts of their parent to be put out, but that clearly that isn't the case and in a world of fan-produced media where such kinds of discussion are tightly controlled (lookin' at you, fan films), it was refreshing to at least find that Mission Log doesn't playing the withholding game.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

That episode of Mission Log is the perfect example of what I was talking about in my last post.

I love the guys at Mission Log and they do a great job with their show, but man, I wish someone had held Gerrold's balls to the fire a bit the way they did with Bob Orci a couple years ago. Of course, I don't know if Gerrold would be willing to do an interview like that. (Again, I've yet to see, read or hear anything of the kind.)

Finally, I do have to give props to Rod for letting Gerrold mouth off as he does about Gene. A lot of people would only want whitewashed accounts of their parent to be put out, but that clearly that isn't the case and in a world of fan-produced media where such kinds of discussion are tightly controlled (lookin' at you, fan films), it was refreshing to at least find that Mission Log doesn't playing the withholding game.

My problem with the Mission Logs podcast interview is that it's all one sided. It would've been interesting had they done one where they also interview someone else from those days, even if it were Fontana. Instead, we get Larry Nemeck talking about a production memo. I'd rather get an additional source.

I once had a discussion with Gerrold years ago at WonderCon about having two sources for any story. Yet whenever he's interviewed about those days, he's the only source quoted, like here: http://trekmovie.com/2014/09/12/exc...nflicts-with-roddenberry-berman-jj-trek-more/

As for Rod, he seems very open to discussing who he father was and showing him as a fallible human. "Trek Nation" was surprisingly candid — well, far more candid than I thought it was going to be. There were still things left unsaid in that doc. However, the film didn't come across as a 100% fluff piece.

 

[Phantom]

That was a very powerful and insightful interview. So much about the weird things surrounding TNG (esp the first two seasons) makes sense after hearing that interview.

I was especially interested in learning that "Roddenberry's Perfect People" are in fact "Maizlish's Perfect People", and how Berman's "studio man" attitude towards Trek was there right from when he was brought on board.

 

[Karzak]

That episode of Mission Log is the perfect example of what I was talking about in my last post.

I love the guys at Mission Log and they do a great job with their show, but man, I wish someone had held Gerrold's balls to the fire a bit the way they did with Bob Orci a couple years ago. Of course, I don't know if Gerrold would be willing to do an interview like that. (Again, I've yet to see, read or hear anything of the kind.)

My problem with the Mission Logs podcast interview is that it's all one sided. It would've been interesting had they done one where they also interview someone else from those days, even if it were Fontana. Instead, we get Larry Nemeck talking about a production memo. I'd rather get an additional source.

Agreed. Even still, it would have been nice if John or Ken had asked some hard hitting questions -- "Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps you weren't qualified to be a showrunner?" --those kinds of things. I don't get the impression that Gerrold has much interest in those kinds of questions though, and just wants to further the legend of himself at every opportunity.

Finally, I do have to give props to Rod for letting Gerrold mouth off as he does about Gene. A lot of people would only want whitewashed accounts of their parent to be put out, but that clearly that isn't the case and in a world of fan-produced media where such kinds of discussion are tightly controlled (lookin' at you, fan films), it was refreshing to at least find that Mission Log doesn't playing the withholding game.

I once had a discussion with Gerrold years ago at WonderCon about having two sources for any story. Yet whenever he's interviewed about those days, he's the only source quoted, like here: http://trekmovie.com/2014/09/12/exc...nflicts-with-roddenberry-berman-jj-trek-more/

[/quote]

Agreed, entirely. It'd be great if there were some other documented interviews or comments that could corroborate even part of the spiel we always get from Gerrold, but I just keep getting the feeling that he repeates himself ad nauseum because he thinks if he does so enough times, it'll become the truth. And in this day and age with the lazy journalism we get (ie the whole "Star Trek Uncharted" mess) it's even easier for that to happen.

As for Rod, he seems very open to discussing who he father was and showing him as a fallible human. "Trek Nation" was surprisingly candid — well, far more candid than I thought it was going to be. There were still things left unsaid in that doc. However, the film didn't come across as a 100% fluff piece.

I haven't seen Trek Nation, but now I'm quite interested to do so. I had assumed it would just be, as you say, a fluff piece.

 

[Phantom]

Given that he won a WGA settlement over his producership of TNG, I'd say there's good evidence he was qualified to run a show. He then went on to run a show for another studio (however briefly) after he left.

Everyone seems to be harping on the idea of him being "one sided". Well, the Paramount side has had decades to push their "disgruntled employee" line. Gerrald is "the other side" of this argument. And it's long past time for him to get his reputation back, IMO.

As for what is said here:

It'd be great if there were some other documented interviews or comments that could corroborate even part of the spiel we always get from Gerrold,

Solo and Justman confirm GR's leaking shennanigans in Inside Star Trek (among other books they've written or been interviewed for). Cushman has interviews from Coon, et al in his three books confirming GR's habit of stealing ideas and snaking the credit.

Everything in Gerrald's interview rings true with what we know from other sources.

 

[Christopher]

I don't see why Gerrold wouldn't be qualified to be a showrunner. He was the developer, story editor, and head writer on Land of the Lost's first season, which essentially made him the showrunner in modern terms.

 

[Karzak]

I don't see why Gerrold wouldn't be qualified to be a showrunner. He was the developer, story editor, and head writer on Land of the Lost's first season, which essentially made him the showrunner in modern terms.

Not really. I dispute the idea that Gerrold was qualified to run an hour-long live action drama because he'd never done so before. It's different from being just a writer or just developing the format of the show. There's a business side to running a show that he doesn't seem to have any experience with.

It'd be a different thing if he was talking about running the writer's room, but (in the space of the Mission Log podcast) he keeps saying "showrunner" which is a broader term, and what I am replying to.

Cushman is an unreliable source.

As for Gerrold, nearly every word out of the man's mouth is intended to inflate his importance and value. It's impossible to have a true picture of what his actual contributions to TNG were.

That said, I acknowledge, obviously that he contributed a lot to the birth of the show But because of the lack of reliable sources and just plain accurate information, we'll likely never know what really took place.

Also: I'm well aware of Gene's shady dealings with people, but let's also, for the moment, take a step back and acknowledge that just because he'd done it before, it doesn't automatically mean he did it with Gerrold. I'm not saying it couldn't have happened, but you make it sound like it's all but verified that it did.

Finally, Gerrold could do worlds of good for his reputation if he learned to communicate better. As I've said, I'd love to see an interview with the guy that isn't some hate-filled rant or a self-congratulatory one-man circle jerk for everything he's ever done. To my knowledge, no such interview exists or has been conducted.

 

[Noname Given]

Re: David Gerrald finally speaking out about TNG behind-the-scenes

If there's an interview out there where Gerrold doesn't spend the whole time congratulating himself for all his "brilliant" ideas that were either used or ignored, patting himself on the back for being the "only" person who "knows" Star Trek, or an interview where he doesn't take the opportunity to badmouth others (Berman, Maizlish, etc.) at every opportunity , I have yet to find it.

I get that he's a luminary in the TOS pantheon, and I totally believe in the possibility that Rick Berman and Leonard Maizlish may be awful people, but Christ on a pogo stick. Boo hoo, he wasn't a showrunner on TNG. Let's just ignore the fact that he'd never run a live-action series before. Let's ignore the fact that the subsequent seasons of TNG saw it rise to become an even bigger success than TOS, and that it spawned not one, not two, but three sequel television series and another four films. The quality as it went on obviously, is up for debate. But it's important to remember that TNG wasn't some god awful piece of trash show after Gerrold left.

Wash, rinse, repeat. That's the David Gerrold interview process.

Lastly, Marc Cushman is a hack and a lazy writer whose inattention to detail has led to three volumes of work with specious and faulty information throughout and who has likewise demonstrated repeatedly a pathological inability to correct his information when called out on it. Fuck that guy.

You know, I actually met David Gerrold in person at the 1993 World Science Fiction Convention in San Francisco while I was working the Info booth. He came up and wanted to use the PA System (and I AM NOT kidding here) because he had met a girl earlier, and arranged to meet her for lunch that day, but she never showed and he wanted to call out and get her to meet him at the booth.

I politely informed him that the PA system was for emergency use only (a parent trying to find a lost minor, etc.) and that I was sorry, but a missed lunch date with some random girl who decided not to show up for a lunch date didn't qualify as such.

He immediately went into a rant of:

"Don't you know WHO I AM...??!!" and I actually stopped him and said, "Yes sir, I do. I'm a big Star Trek fan and I realize you wrote "The Trouble With Tribbles"; but that still isn't a good justification for you to use the PA as again, a 'missed date' with some person you met at this Con doesn't qualify as an emergency."

He then asked to speak to "The Supervisor" - whom I went and got; and she wasn't as polite as I had been; and in no uncertain terms told him he wasn't going to be allowed to use the PA system and to "take a walk".

But, in the brief time I observed him and spoke to him, he came across as very self absorbed with a GIGANTIC ego. I was not impressed.

 

[2takesfrakes]

David Gerrold's always seemed very overrated to me. He actually wrote The Trouble with Tribbles ... and a cartoon version of the same, or a sequel to it, maybe. And William Shatner actually "knew" who he was. That's all cool, working in real, live-action STAR TREK and in entertainment, in general. But there's just no hype about the guy outside of that. Rick Berman, on the other hand, kept STAR TREK on television for over 2 decades and I love him, for it. If he didn't like monkeying around and was considered a hardass, or whatever, well ... the show must go on, and he knows what it takes to make that happen. And all, by the way, without the PR value of Gene Roddenberry's name, or having written one TOS episode, or any of that. I love it that so much of STAR TREK was made and if there's anyone I'd like to meet, on a fan-level, it would be Rick Berman.