Spoilers Dark Matter - Season 2

[Star Wolf]

I doubt he's a clone. When he first showed up and was lecturing the troops, he said that the summit would be in two weeks. So the episode covered a considerable span of time. I don't think a Transit clone has a 2-week lifespan.

Besides, I'm getting a little tired of hearing "It was a clone!" from the fans every time a character dies on this show. If they actually used that device as often as the audience expected them to, it would quickly rob character deaths of any meaning and just reduce them to lazy cheats.

However consider he was not on a covert mission and the need to file reports in a timely manner or just in case the Rekall clone was lost with its memories. The transfer pods seem to work at the speed of the Blink drive and not the FTL drive of the starships which the station was protected against. So for something like a normal sleep cycle the augmentation force of GA cops would return to home base.

As for the fans, since we know it is possible we expect to see it used, or at least hope it is used rather than lose a favored character for seemed like a minor plot point. In this case the boss could have sent any deputy when his instincts said maybe the pirate Raza crew was telling the truth. In any case it is little different from the "thank god you wore your vest" when in the next scene the spy's pistol round seems to cut through protective vest like a hot knife through butter. Do comic book rules apply with no body?

 

[Christopher]

However consider he was not on a covert mission and the need to file reports in a timely manner or just in case the Rekall clone was lost with its memories. The transfer pods seem to work at the speed of the Blink drive and not the FTL drive of the starships which the station was protected against. So for something like a normal sleep cycle the augmentation force of GA cops would return to home base.

More like they work at the speed of a subspace transmission, which is how the data are transmitted from pod to pod. But that's also effectively instantaneous.

As for the fans, since we know it is possible we expect to see it used, or at least hope it is used rather than lose a favored character for seemed like a minor plot point.

Yes, but whether something can be done is an entirely different question from whether it should be done. Things in stories should happen for good reasons. If everyone who ever dies is a clone, if every death is just a fakeout and a cheat, that's bad, gimmicky writing and it's an insult to the audience. So we shouldn't want it to be a clone every time.

And I'm so sick of it. They killed One, and for weeks, viewers insisted "Oh, it was a transfer clone" even though there was clearly a body and that was clearly impossible. They killed Devon, and immediately, the reaction from the audience was "Oh, it was a clone." How is a character death supposed to have any emotional impact for the audience if we reflexively dismiss it as a trick? That's not how it's supposed to work. That's not the purpose of death as a storytelling device. Sci-fi and comics have overused resurrection as a plot gimmick to the point that genre audiences are no longer emotionally capable of processing character death as a reality. They don't feel the loss, they just start the countdown to the resurrection.

I think Dark Matter's producers have done a reasonably good job establishing that transfer clones have limitations that preclude them from being used as a cheat for any and every character death -- they vividly disintegrate upon death, they have a finite lifespan, they can't bring the original's clothes with them, etc. Audiences keep ignoring those factors because they've been so badly brainwashed into expecting every death to be fake, but that's not the writers' fault. Granted, in this case, there's no body either way, so you could argue that a clone can't be ruled out. But the one time these writers have ever faked us out like that was with Six's "death" in the first Transfer Transit episode, and they immediately revealed the fakeout there. Every other time the audience has expected a Transfer-clone fakeout, it's turned out to be a real death. I'm not always impressed with these writers, but they have never yet engaged in the kind of sleazy, gimmicky Transfer-clone fakeout that the audience keeps expecting from them. They haven't tried to trick us with that kind of crass manipulation, but have played straight with us where character death was concerned, even if we didn't believe it at first. Twice now, when the audience has assumed a death was fake, it turned out to be real. Every actual Transfer-clone "death" was revealed to be a clone death almost instantly, or known to be one in advance. This time, it could be different, since it's a cliffhanger and the characters' fates are supposed to be ambiguous; but it seems unlikely to me, because they've never used that cheat before.

In this case the boss could have sent any deputy when his instincts said maybe the pirate Raza crew was telling the truth.

"Sent any deputy?" To the most important conference in the galaxy? To the first corporate conclave in generations? No way. The GA would send their best commander and he'd have to put every other responsibility on hold.

In any case it is little different from the "thank god you wore your vest" when in the next scene the spy's pistol round seems to cut through protective vest like a hot knife through butter.

Yes -- in the next scene. As I said, the show has never sustained a clone-death fakeout for more than a few moments before we discovered it was a clone. That's completely different from waiting weeks or months before revealing the fakeout. That's something they've never done yet.

 

[Marc]

according to the fun facts for the episode the person that Three saw at the very end was Lt Anders who was seen in Episode 2 of Season 2

and can I also give a big fuck you to syfy.com and space.ca. The former has also the behind the scenes videos etc geolocked and the later despite being Canadian and own by Bell Media (who provided funding for show) only has stale content from before S2 began.

 

[Christopher]

according to the fun facts for the episode the person that Three saw at the very end was Lt Anders who was seen in Episode 2 of Season 2

And who's Lt. Anders when he's at home?

 

[cylkoth]

I think Dark Matter's producers have done a reasonably good job establishing that transfer clones have limitations that preclude them from being used as a cheat for any and every character death -- they vividly disintegrate upon death, they have a finite lifespan, they can't bring the original's clothes with them, etc. Audiences keep ignoring those factors because they've been so badly brainwashed into expecting every death to be fake, but that's not the writers' fault. Granted, in this case, there's no body either way, so you could argue that a clone can't be ruled out. But the one time these writers have ever faked us out like that was with Six's "death" in the first Transfer Transit episode, and they immediately revealed the fakeout there. Every other time the audience has expected a Transfer-clone fakeout, it's turned out to be a real death. I'm not always impressed with these writers, but they have never yet engaged in the kind of sleazy, gimmicky Transfer-clone fakeout that the audience keeps expecting from them. They haven't tried to trick us with that kind of crass manipulation, but have played straight with us where character death was concerned, even if we didn't believe it at first. Twice now, when the audience has assumed a death was fake, it turned out to be real. Every actual Transfer-clone "death" was revealed to be a clone death almost instantly, or known to be one in advance. This time, it could be different, since it's a cliffhanger and the characters' fates are supposed to be ambiguous; but it seems unlikely to me, because they've never used that cheat before.

I'm in agreement with you...it's not that wanted Kierken to have been a clone, it was simply the shock that the character had been moved into a place of understanding the bigger picture of what's been going on, possibly becoming an asset for the crew, and then gets removed from the field of play. As fascinated as I am over the concept of TT's temp cloning, I don't want it to turn into the DM equivalent of the Star Trek transporter and the well worn last minute beam out.

Maybe they'll pull a Republic Pictures-mere seconds before the explosion, a trap door opens and he jumps into it, slides down a chute to the non explody side of the station, drops into a convenient escape pod which blasts him away to safety!

 

[Christopher]

Man... Re-reading that paragraph makes me wish I'd edited it more carefully. I say the same things two or three times in a row.

 

[Wouter]

Kind of a weird ending to the season. Apparently a big time jump since last week. And there's a discontinuity with the Kierken character. Two episodes ago, they made such a big deal out of Three warning Kierken about the impending corporate war and making sure his clone stayed alive to retain that information -- yet here, Kierken seemed to know nothing about any of that, and it was like it had never happened. And they just unceremoniously killed him off at the climax, a complete waste of half a season's worth of characterization.

Like others, I hope Kierken is not dead. He could be a clone, as he arrived "on special assignment straight from HQ", while EOS7 was said to be far out in space (HQ presumably being on or near Earth). Clones were said in S1 to have a limited lifespan, but even if that is true for the Transfer Transit version operated by the GA, he could just come in to organise things beforehand and return later when the conference actually starts.

Sure, it looks like he died, but very few people believe that Two, Three, Five and Six are gone (probably not even a single one of them). There are still solutions for Kierken, and his development wouldn't be wasted that way. At least, I sincerely hope so.

I think Kierken was still well aware of what was going on between the corporations. The GA officer who announced him to the men said "we have to protect the delegates from outside threats, and probably more importantly, from each other". Allthough Kierken was sceptical at Two's claims over the comm, he did act on her suggestion to check his own "secure" installations for signs of Zairon saboteurs. His comments to Six about them being criminals and those delegates being fine upstanding corporate citizens does not have to mean he has forgotten that he was trying to prove the involvement of Mikkei and Traugott in major crimes; he's correct when he says that he can't arrest or detain someone like Niemann on the word of a convicted criminal/traitor.

And they'd better not have killed Nyx.

I'm pretty sure Nyx is dead. The Android wasn't trying to rush her to sickbay or attempt any treatment. Body language was telling. And it is needed as a personal cost for Ryo's villainous actions, and another reason for the rest of the crew to turn on him in S3. Unlike One or Kierken, her story seems like it has been told.

Four has really embraced the supervillain role, hasn't he? Blowing up a whole station, starting a galactic war, stealing the blink drive. The one redeeming thing he did was giving his former crewmates a chance to escape, but I'm not sure I find that plausible, given that he was willing to execute his own brother even knowing that the coup wasn't Hiro's fault. By the same ruthless logic, he should realize he'd be better off killing the Raza crew, since they know him well enough to know his vulnerabilities and become a threat. So it seems like a bit too much of a plot convenience.

I disagree; Ryo is the best kind of villain, someone who can justify his acts to himself and view himself as a good guy who has to make hard choices (for the good of Zairon). He is not an all-out villain without any human feelings; it did not save his brother but Ryo has been close to Boone, the Android and especially Portia for a long time. And until the last moment, he was trying to get Two to ally with him. He will probably come to regret not taking the chance to take out his former pals, but I think this is a very reasonable action from his POV. Ryo is a well-written, well-planned character IMO ("I gouged their eyes out" - very first episode), allthough I realise this will probably not be a popular opinion here.

Were we supposed to recognize that guy that Three blurrily saw looming over him at the end there?

It's Lt.Anders, who was shot by Six during the escape from prison. Both survived. Presumably, he will bring Three to safety and then to an interrogation room. Since he has a history with Six, this indicates Six will be around in S3 as well, so Anders can act as a foil.

I'm hoping he was a clone. It wouldn't make sense for the GA to pull him off his assignment to work security for this summit, surely they have thousands of seasoned officers capable of handling a job this important. Perhaps he finagled his way into the job to further investigate Three's claims, and was only acting clueless in front of Six and Two to verify his suspicions. If he's really dead, then they've repeated the same thing that happened to One (and Devon it would appear-I was guessing he'd show up in the finale), dumping carefully plotted story material and wasting our time. I'm hopeful that's not the case.

I think Devon is gone. One, though, is dead but his storyline is bound to return. Since Ryo apparently was careful to not come into a position where Three would ask him about memories, I wonder if this is a hint that Boone murdered Moss' wife after all.
The reason why CEO and billionaire Derrick Moss joined the Raza himself, and why he was murdered afterwards, is also something the show is bound to revisit. It isn't going to stop with Corso's death.

To those who are sceptical: may I remind you that Five's mysterious "keycard" was introduced early in S1 and only got consequences in the second half of S2?

I'm less positive about Kierken, but I would hate it if all that promising development was for nothing. I hope he was a clone after all.

Besides, I'm getting a little tired of hearing "It was a clone!" from the fans every time a character dies on this show. If they actually used that device as often as the audience expected them to, it would quickly rob character deaths of any meaning and just reduce them to lazy cheats.

Like some, I was quite convinced One wasn't gone for good, but I was wrong. With Devon, I was also wrong.

But then, I/we could be right with Kierken. They are going to pull that trick sooner or later, and Kierken would be a great one to use it for. There is nothing precluding him from being a clone, on EOS7. We didn't even see the explosion hit the body, so no proof either way. I prefer to hope that he is alive, until proof to the contrary is revealed.

You are holding out hope for Nyx, with I think is for nought.

I've never really believed that "carefully plotted" was the case here. That may be the impression Mallozzi gives on his blog, but I doubt he'd admit to a more chaotic process. Besides, as J. Michael Straczynski likes to stress, "No plan ever survives its first encounter with the enemy." He was the pioneer of the modern planned-in-advance series arc with Babylon 5, and he kept his plan quite loose -- just the key character arcs and plotlines and events that were most important to cover, with a lot of flexibility toward the specifics of how and when they happened. He added and dropped and replaced characters, reassigned arcs from one character to another, rearranged the timing of the story arcs, etc. as mandated by the vagaries of real life.

Mallozzi has not claimed he has every episode or storyline planned out in advance. Only a general outline and some important points to hit in between. He is quite open about the process of "breaking stories" and (re)writing scripts, not hiding in any way that there are new ideas sometimes. But he very specifically claimed that he had planned the scene in the throne room in Zairon for 7 years (with one change: one character more was supposed to have died, originally - this may have been Nyx), and I can believe that. Those are exactly the kind of things that a writer, who wants to tell a specific story, would have in mind before the rest and the details are worked out. IMO it also shines through in the way the character Four has been handled: he was sinister right from the start. Killing Akita (and later show One asking "why?") was clearly not done merely for shock value, but to make a point about the kind of man he is.

We're two years and 26 episodes into this series, and not a single episode has been written or co-written by a woman, and only three have been directed by a woman (two by Amanda Tapping, one by Mairzee Almas). Not that men are automatically incapable of writing women well, but there can be blind spots that a female perspective can help balance.

While a female perspective would help, isn't it ironic (or maybe just peculiar from me) that I consider Two and Five to be among the best written female characters in live-action SF?

The writers do tend to avoid writing dialogue when it comes to romatic relations, which may be just as well given the triangle of doom in S1. It's not their forte. But I didn't miss it in the Four-Nyx relationship, which was glossed over but it was still clear enough what was going on.

I appreciated getting that conversation between Two and Ryo, though. And between Two and Kierken, after that. It's another kind of relation, but it holds my interest more than whatever could have been done between Nyx and Four/Ryo.

Good point. I can't think of a way around that one.

AFAIK they had no records on the composition of the bomb. Only a general news report, taken from a public feed in the alternate universe.

 

[Christopher]

Like others, I hope Kierken is not dead. He could be a clone, as he arrived "on special assignment straight from HQ", while EOS7 was said to be far out in space (HQ presumably being on or near Earth).

Again, though, there seems to have been a significant time jump between episodes, given that the characters act as though it's been a while since they last spoke to Ryo. So if the delegates had time to travel that far, so did Kierken.

Sure, it looks like he died, but very few people believe that Two, Three, Five and Six are gone (probably not even a single one of them). There are still solutions for Kierken, and his development wouldn't be wasted that way. At least, I sincerely hope so.

I'm pretty sure Nyx is dead. The Android wasn't trying to rush her to sickbay or attempt any treatment. Body language was telling.

Isn't this a bit of a double standard? Kierken is caught point-blank in an explosion and you think he's alive, but Nyx was just lying on the ground for a minute or two and you think she's dead? Yes, they made it look like she was dead, but as you just said, they made it look like everyone else was, too.

And it is needed as a personal cost for Ryo's villainous actions, and another reason for the rest of the crew to turn on him in S3.

But if it's "another reason," that means there are already reasons to turn on him, so why is another "needed"? Not to mention that Ryo wanted her alive to be his bride. Misaki is the one who wanted her dead.

Unlike One or Kierken, her story seems like it has been told.

No more than Six's was at the end of season 1. And given how Ryo's bound to react when he learns what Misaki did to the woman he loved, I'd say her story's clearly not done, and it would be a rotten cliche if they fridged her, i.e. killed her off merely to motivate a male character's revenge arc. If Ryo's feelings for Nyx are meant to have further story significance, then she should be a living part of that story.

Besides, remember, Nyx has a superpower. With the Seers gone, her predictive talent now gives the Raza crew a unique edge. Given that they've lost the unique edge the blink drive gave them, I'd say they could use another to compensate.

I disagree; Ryo is the best kind of villain, someone who can justify his acts to himself and view himself as a good guy who has to make hard choices (for the good of Zairon). He is not an all-out villain without any human feelings; it did not save his brother but Ryo has been close to Boone, the Android and especially Portia for a long time.

I never suggested he was without feelings. What I said, what I meant, was that if he was able to put pragmatism above emotion to such a degree that he would execute his own brother -- and murder Akita -- despite his capacity for empathy, then it seems a bit contrived to ask us to believe that his devotion to his old crewmates surpassed even his family bonds. Those killings show he was willing to go to any lengths to reclaim his throne, so having the Raza crew be the only people he cares about who are exempt from that feels awfully convenient. I can see the writers' hands cloaking the lead characters in plot armor.

But then, I/we could be right with Kierken. They are going to pull that trick sooner or later, and Kierken would be a great one to use it for. There is nothing precluding him from being a clone, on EOS7. We didn't even see the explosion hit the body, so no proof either way. I prefer to hope that he is alive, until proof to the contrary is revealed.

Are you kidding? It was a blindingly bright explosion powerful enough to blow out a major portion of this gigantic space station, and he was just a few meters away from its origin point. We didn't need to see his body get hit. It's a given that he was completely engulfed and vaporized.

Also, just to digress into science for a bit -- despite what TV and movies tend to assume, it's not the visible part of an explosion that kills people. Anyone standing close to a powerful explosion in atmosphere or water will be instantly killed by the pressure wave that spreads outward from the explosion at the speed of sound, far faster than the fireball or shrapnel. And not blown outward by it, because that's not what pressure waves do; they pass through you, and if the pressure differential is intense enough, they'd rupture or liquefy your internal organs. Pressure can be very deadly; often what kills people who are hit by high-caliber bullets is not blood loss, but the hydraulic shock of impact propagating through their bloodstreams to the heart, lungs, and brain. Intense heat is also deadly without requiring direct contact with the source, because of course heat radiates and is conducted by the air. (Sorry, playacting kids, but if the floor were lava, you'd be roasted alive just being above it, no touching needed.) Granted, fiction often cheats this and has characters survive explosions they couldn't possibly survive, but I really don't think that's meant to be the case here. Clone or real, the body we saw was undoubtedly disintegrated.

You are holding out hope for Nyx, with I think is for nought.

Which is a different matter altogether, because my specific issue is with jumping to the conclusion that every dead character is a Transfer Transit clone. Obviously that's not on the table here. Nyx wasn't shot like One or Devon or vaporized like Kierken, just poisoned. Depending on how swift the poison is and how strong her constitution is (and we know she's very strong), there's a lot of wiggle room for her to survive.

Mallozzi has not claimed he has every episode or storyline planned out in advance. Only a general outline and some important points to hit in between.

Yes, exactly. That was my point -- that fans often seem to assume that advance planning means knowing every last detail ahead of time, and the reality is that it has to be more flexible than that, here as much as anywhere else.

But he very specifically claimed that he had planned the scene in the throne room in Zairon for 7 years (with one change: one character more was supposed to have died, originally - this may have been Nyx), and I can believe that.

I never suggested otherwise. The plot elements that I assume were altered were those involving One and Devon. I have no reason to suspect any alterations in Four's storyline, because it had essentially no overlap with those. Although it's possible the relationship with Nyx was added to that storyline, given that she wasn't introduced until season 2 and was probably meant to be One's replacement once the decision was made to drop him. Which is part of the reason I'd be surprised if she were just killed off. Why add that relationship arc only to terminate it abruptly? Also, with One, Four, and Devon now gone from the crew, that means that if Nyx is dead too, there are only five crew members left. Sure, they could bring someone else in again, but that's a lot of cast changes.

While a female perspective would help, isn't it ironic (or maybe just peculiar from me) that I consider Two and Five to be among the best written female characters in live-action SF?

As I said, there's no reason men can't write women well, but we can innocently overlook certain things that a woman would be able to point out, or fall into certain traps if we aren't careful.

AFAIK they had no records on the composition of the bomb. Only a general news report, taken from a public feed in the alternate universe.

But the news report was their source about the bomb's composition. That's how they knew what to scan for. So the question is, why did it take the Android so many weeks to get around to mining that data?

 

[Wouter]

Again, though, there seems to have been a significant time jump between episodes, given that the characters act as though it's been a while since they last spoke to Ryo. So if the delegates had time to travel that far, so did Kierken.

Yes, but he seemed to be an unexpected arrival, unusual enough that he got an introduction from the other ranking GA officer. He could have traveled there, but if he is normally attached to the (far away) HQ, it would cost him more time to travel there, and then come back, in the conventional way.

Isn't this a bit of a double standard? Kierken is caught point-blank in an explosion and you think he's alive, but Nyx was just lying on the ground for a minute or two and you think she's dead? Yes, they made it look like she was dead, but as you just said, they made it look like everyone else was, too.

Kierken is dead unless he was a clone at that point. If he is, he would be alive without the memories of what happened. Nyx - the Android wasn't doing anything to help her. Which is a bad sign.

But if it's "another reason," that means there are already reasons to turn on him, so why is another "needed"? Not to mention that Ryo wanted her alive to be his bride. Misaki is the one who wanted her dead.

It gives Ryo the problem that when he finds out, he will have to do something about Misaki.
As for the extra reason for Two and co to turn on him: Nyx makes it more personal. Many people on EOS7, of which a significant number probably died, but they are nameless/faceless ones. Two and Three had/have a good rapport with Nyx.

No more than Six's was at the end of season 1. And given how Ryo's bound to react when he learns what Misaki did to the woman he loved, I'd say her story's clearly not done, and it would be a rotten cliche if they fridged her, i.e. killed her off merely to motivate a male character's revenge arc. If Ryo's feelings for Nyx are meant to have further story significance, then she should be a living part of that story.

Besides, remember, Nyx has a superpower. With the Seers gone, her predictive talent now gives the Raza crew a unique edge. Given that they've lost the unique edge the blink drive gave them, I'd say they could use another to compensate.

Nyx' predictive abilitity has worked for the gang (it saved several of them from Corso), but she does not seem to match the ability of the seers to predict every move of an opponents days or weeks in advance. And the writers would make the opponent of the week weaker or stronger in function of the abilities of the protagonists, to make it an even match (if the plot requires that).

I also think that if she's dead, Ryo will have regrets. He may die friendless. Which could make a point in the kind of redemption theme that DM is going with.

I never suggested he was without feelings. What I said, what I meant, was that if he was able to put pragmatism above emotion to such a degree that he would execute his own brother -- and murder Akita -- despite his capacity for empathy, then it seems a bit contrived to ask us to believe that his devotion to his old crewmates surpassed even his family bonds. Those killings show he was willing to go to any lengths to reclaim his throne, so having the Raza crew be the only people he cares about who are exempt from that feels awfully convenient. I can see the writers' hands cloaking the lead characters in plot armor.

The Raza crew are probably family to him, more so than his actual family (which had turned on him). It's a theme in the entire group, especially with Five and the Android.

Are you kidding? It was a blindingly bright explosion powerful enough to blow out a major portion of this gigantic space station, and he was just a few meters away from its origin point. We didn't need to see his body get hit. It's a given that he was completely engulfed and vaporized.

Also, just to digress into science for a bit -- despite what TV and movies tend to assume, it's not the visible part of an explosion that kills people. Anyone standing close to a powerful explosion in atmosphere or water will be instantly killed by the pressure wave that spreads outward from the explosion at the speed of sound, far faster than the fireball or shrapnel. And not blown outward by it, because that's not what pressure waves do; they pass through you, and if the pressure differential is intense enough, they'd rupture or liquefy your internal organs. Pressure can be very deadly; often what kills people who are hit by high-caliber bullets is not blood loss, but the hydraulic shock of impact propagating through their bloodstreams to the heart, lungs, and brain. Intense heat is also deadly without requiring direct contact with the source, because of course heat radiates and is conducted by the air. (Sorry, playacting kids, but if the floor were lava, you'd be roasted alive just being above it, no touching needed.) Granted, fiction often cheats this and has characters survive explosions they couldn't possibly survive, but I really don't think that's meant to be the case here. Clone or real, the body we saw was undoubtedly disintegrated.

I agree, I meant that I hope it was a clone body. They can go either way, no definite proof for or against. It's possible that Kierken is like Devon and Shaddick, but I hope not. He got a lot more development, and the actor is decent.

As I said, there's no reason men can't write women well, but we can innocently overlook certain things that a woman would be able to point out, or fall into certain traps if we aren't careful.

True.

But the news report was their source about the bomb's composition. That's how they knew what to scan for. So the question is, why did it take the Android so many weeks to get around to mining that data?

She could have done it earlier, but it was probably written in to remind the audience what their source was (I had forgotten, I admit!). As it was, she was still able to act on time on what data was available.

 

[Christopher]

Kierken is dead unless he was a clone at that point. If he is, he would be alive without the memories of what happened. Nyx - the Android wasn't doing anything to help her. Which is a bad sign.

Of course it's a bad sign; it's a cliffhanger finale. But it's not as definitively, unambiguously bad as seeing someone vaporized by a point-blank explosion. If they intend to bring Nyx back, there are surely a number of ways to justify the Android's lack of action -- or merely to gloss it over as something done strictly for dramatic effect.

It gives Ryo the problem that when he finds out, he will have to do something about Misaki.

Which doesn't address the specific question, why would it be "needed" to give the Raza crew a reason to see Ryo as an enemy when they already have other reasons?

As for the extra reason for Two and co to turn on him: Nyx makes it more personal.

Again: Ryo wanted her alive. This only gives them a reason to hate Misaki. And again: The question is not whether it's a reason, the question is whether it's so essential a reason that it would be impossible to tell the story with Nyx surviving. You said "needed," and the necessity is what I'm questioning. The crew already has enough reasons to turn on Ryo even if Nyx survives. Yes, you're right that her death would be icing on the cake, but that's not needed, it's optional.

Nyx' predictive abilitity has worked for the gang (it saved several of them from Corso), but she does not seem to match the ability of the seers to predict every move of an opponents days or weeks in advance.

I never said she did. I just said she had an ability that makes her useful as a member of the crew and of the show's regular cast.

And the writers would make the opponent of the week weaker or stronger in function of the abilities of the protagonists, to make it an even match (if the plot requires that).

Exactly. They can do that with or without Nyx, so there is no requirement for her to be absent.

I also think that if she's dead, Ryo will have regrets. He may die friendless. Which could make a point in the kind of redemption theme that DM is going with.

And that's fridging, and it's a sexist cliche, and Nyx deserves better than to be reduced to a sacrificial victim for a male character's story arc.

She could have done it earlier, but it was probably written in to remind the audience what their source was (I had forgotten, I admit!).

Yes, obviously, but that's the whole point -- that it was clearly done only for storytelling reasons and doesn't have a valid in-universe reason, and that is careless writing. If the only possible explanation you can come up with for a plot point is "because the writer needed it" rather than because of something inherent to the universe or the characters, then it's not written well enough and deserves to be criticized.

 

[Marc]

I also think that if she's dead, Ryo will have regrets. He may die friendless. Which could make a point in the kind of redemption theme that DM is going with.

The original intention was the Nyx was going to be run through with sword but then with decided that her cognitive meant no-one would be able to sneak up on her (from the "fun facts" for ep13).

So they came up with the idea of the poison.

 

[Christopher]

The original intention was the Nyx was going to be run through with sword but then with decided that her cognitive meant no-one would be able to sneak up on her (from the "fun facts" for ep13).

So they came up with the idea of the poison.

Which still doesn't convince me. As I said, if her opponent were intentionally fighting with the goal of merely scratching her, I think her abilities should let her read that in their body language. Deception depends on playing into someone's preconceptions and assumptions, so that what they expect to see keeps them from recognizing what's really going on. But Nyx doesn't base her fighting strategy on experience or past precedent, but on direct, detailed observation of what her opponent is doing. So it shouldn't be any easier to deceive her face-to-face than it should be to sneak up on her from behind.

I mean, heck, the instant Misaki scratched Nyx's wrist, I immediately thought, "Oh, no, don't tell me the blade is poisoned," because the way the fight choreography led to and emphasized that scratch was a tipoff that the scratch was significant in itself and more than an incidental detail. So if I saw that tell the moment it happened, Nyx should've anticipated that tell before it happened, from the way Misaki was working toward it.

 

[Star Wolf]

Which still doesn't convince me. As I said, if her opponent were intentionally fighting with the goal of merely scratching her, I think her abilities should let her read that in their body language. Deception depends on playing into someone's preconceptions and assumptions, so that what they expect to see keeps them from recognizing what's really going on. But Nyx doesn't base her fighting strategy on experience or past precedent, but on direct, detailed observation of what her opponent is doing. So it shouldn't be any easier to deceive her face-to-face than it should be to sneak up on her from behind.

I mean, heck, the instant Misaki scratched Nyx's wrist, I immediately thought, "Oh, no, don't tell me the blade is poisoned," because the way the fight choreography led to and emphasized that scratch was a tipoff that the scratch was significant in itself and more than an incidental detail. So if I saw that tell the moment it happened, Nyx should've anticipated that tell before it happened, from the way Misaki was working toward it.

And I was thinking some martial arts by tradition do things like try to scratch the arms to weaken the opponent before going for killing blows. But then being able to predict everything doesn't mean you have the physical ability to get out of the way of what is coming and had been the weakness of the Nyx character since we found out she wasn't enhanced in the similar manner to Two.

 

[Christopher]

And I was thinking some martial arts by tradition do things like try to scratch the arms to weaken the opponent before going for killing blows.

Okay, that might've been enough to obscure Misaki's intentions.

Though the whole plotline is still plenty cliched and predictable even so. It diminishes Misaki as a character in a stereotypically gendered way, and if the goal is to kill off Nyx to motivate Four, then it diminishes her in a stereotypically gendered way too. Which is just one of the reasons I really, really don't want Nyx to be killed off.

But then being able to predict everything doesn't mean you have the physical ability to get out of the way of what is coming and had been the weakness of the Nyx character since we found out she wasn't enhanced in the similar manner to Two.

Well, that's only a weakness compared to Two. Compared to everyone else, she's still got a major advantage and is certainly a useful person to have around. I mean, giving her the same abilities as Two would've been redundant.

 

[Morpheus 02]

I am hoping Kierken was a clone...because they've built up this plot of a GA commander who thought the Raza crew were evil, and slowly seeing how good they are... kinda like how 6 has turned, that Kierken could be helpful in a future revolution. His permanent death would make all that interaction kinda pointless.

I think Ryo sparing the Raza crew is due to 4 being technically a separate person, and he has a deep attachment to them, and I think some sense of honor that he owes them. So he might not realize it, but he has a personality conflict, especially those he grew to care about before memory restoration.

I know jealousy thing is played out.. but also to add into it that Nyx is an outsider to Zairon, so there's a loyalty issue . I mean who would make a better Empress...someone who doesn't really want the job, or one deep in all the traditions, history & politics?

ANd regarding the poison thing...I think Misaki would have liked tokill Nyx by blade, and actually really tried to do it. But she anticipated Nyx's anticipation, and had the poison as back up, and worked out well (for Misaki)

And whole thing with 1...it just seems like a major plot point that has gotten dropped. I mean...something important, but now what? His corporation just fades away? His pre-wipe involvement with the Raza means...what?

 

[matthunter]

And I was thinking some martial arts by tradition do things like try to scratch the arms to weaken the opponent before going for killing blows. But then being able to predict everything doesn't mean you have the physical ability to get out of the way of what is coming and had been the weakness of the Nyx character since we found out she wasn't enhanced in the similar manner to Two.

Absolutely. Even with a bit of extra mental reaction time due to her abilities, if she can't move faster than her opponent's strike she's still in trouble. See the Quicksilver fight from Marvel where Quicksilver tells his opponent that all their precognitive power is doing is letting them know which of their bones he's going to break next.

 

[Wouter]

Which doesn't address the specific question, why would it be "needed" to give the Raza crew a reason to see Ryo as an enemy when they already have other reasons?

Again: Ryo wanted her alive. This only gives them a reason to hate Misaki. And again: The question is not whether it's a reason, the question is whether it's so essential a reason that it would be impossible to tell the story with Nyx surviving. You said "needed," and the necessity is what I'm questioning. The crew already has enough reasons to turn on Ryo even if Nyx survives. Yes, you're right that her death would be icing on the cake, but that's not needed, it's optional.

It's up to the showrunners to decide what's needed or optional, and in the latter case they are still the ones who decide whether or not the option is used.
So, while "needed" may have been the wrong word to use for me, as I don't know for sure if the writers consider it "needed", I do think that losing Nyx to Ryo makes it far more personal.

You say it only gives them a reason to hate Misaki - but the way Ryo played them, won't they be willing to believe the worst? Nyx refused him, so he killed her. He's cold enough to do it. He didn't want it to happen, but will Two be ready to believe that after he took the blink drive and blew up the station?

And that's fridging, and it's a sexist cliche, and Nyx deserves better than to be reduced to a sacrificial victim for a male character's story arc.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "fridging", but assuming my guess is right: Devon and One were "fridged" too. I don't see a sexist dimension. OK, Misaki's portrayal isn't the most subtle nor carefully constructed, but this hasn't been the case for guys like Wexler or the criminal brothers that got massacred by Three, either. It's not like they aren't other important female characters who play important roles and survive (Two, Five, even the ambiguous Truffault). Misaki seems to be no more than a secondary villain, given little thought by the writers.

The original intention was the Nyx was going to be run through with sword but then with decided that her cognitive meant no-one would be able to sneak up on her (from the "fun facts" for ep13).

So they came up with the idea of the poison.

I'm assuming this is (semi)-official?

It's what I suspect Mallozzi meant when he revealed that one other character was originally planned to have been killed in the throne room carnage. It was very unlikely to be either our "numbers" or extra guard #6, it pretty much had to be either Nyx or Misaki. Given Misaki's sudden U-turn was the driving force of the scene, it was unlikely to be her.

Well, that's only a weakness compared to Two. Compared to everyone else, she's still got a major advantage and is certainly a useful person to have around. I mean, giving her the same abilities as Two would've been redundant.

In a knife- or swordfight, it's a weakness compared to Ryo and Misaki, too. It's their kind of fight, and they have trained for it from a young age. Nyx could match Four with her predictive abilities, which Four lacks. By implication, Four's physical prowess in this kind of fights was better. And Misaki seems to be an even match for Four/Ryo.

I am hoping Kierken was a clone...because they've built up this plot of a GA commander who thought the Raza crew were evil, and slowly seeing how good they are... kinda like how 6 has turned, that Kierken could be helpful in a future revolution. His permanent death would make all that interaction kinda pointless.

I think Ryo sparing the Raza crew is due to 4 being technically a separate person, and he has a deep attachment to them, and I think some sense of honor that he owes them. So he might not realize it, but he has a personality conflict, especially those he grew to care about before memory restoration.

Agreed on both counts. The only way I could understand killing off Kierken now, is if the actor was unavalaible for next year, for some reason. And I would hope he left at least a thorough rapport for his superior(s), after his encounter with Three. I hope a clone was on the station and he's alive, but DM's track record does give me pause. The way he died left it impossible to be sure if he was a clone, or not.

Ryo does have some parts of Four left in him, as well as memories of his cooperation with Portia and Boone, and the strong attachment that has been created IMO gives a believable reason why he would show mercy to them, in spite of his "ming the merciless" attitude elsewhere.

And whole thing with 1...it just seems like a major plot point that has gotten dropped. I mean...something important, but now what? His corporation just fades away? His pre-wipe involvement with the Raza means...what?

I'm confident that this has not been forgotten, nor dropped. It's probably important enough that finding out more is reserved as a major development in S3 (possibly at or near the finale, like the Zairon storyline in S2) or even later.

 

[Christopher]

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "fridging", but assuming my guess is right: Devon and One were "fridged" too. I don't see a sexist dimension.

Your guess is wrong, then. "Fridging" is a reference to an infamous DC Comics storyline in which Green Lantern Kyle Rayner's girlfriend was murdered and stuffed into his refrigerator for him to discover, so that he would be motivated to seek revenge against her (male) killer. "Stuffing into the fridge" or "fridging" has become a shorthand for reducing female characters to mere plot devices, for killing them exclusively to motivate male characters. It's part of the tendency to treat female characters as mere extensions of male characters, to marginalize or depersonalize them or treat them as disposable.

Neither of the other examples comes even close, in part because it's intrinsically a gendered term, a recognition of one of the ways in which female characters are pervasively diminished in the media. Devon's certainly doesn't, because his death didn't motivate anyone to do anything; nobody but the audience even knows he's dead. And yes, One's death motivated Two to seek revenge, but that was a side effect. The reasons for One's death arose from his own storyline, the mystery surrounding the murder of Darren Cross's wife, instead of somebody else's.

In a knife- or swordfight, it's a weakness compared to Ryo and Misaki, too. It's their kind of fight, and they have trained for it from a young age.

So what? I'm not talking about a single specific case. I'm talking about the entire show and the value of keeping Nyx around as a character in general. She's a terrific fighter with an exceptional ability, which is obviously useful in general terms for a cast member of an action show. So that's a reason for her to still be of use as a part of the show even with the Seer storyline being resolved. Along with other factors, like how Nyx brings something different to the team by being the only one with all her memories. Or how she adds to the ethnic diversity of the cast, which is particularly good if Ryo is reduced to a more detached or recurring role. Or how she's just stunningly gorgeous and appealing and it would be a shame to lose her.

I'm puzzled. This started out as you just saying you believed she was dead, but now it seems like you've gone beyond that to arguing that she shouldn't be kept on the show. Am I misreading you?

 

[Marc]

I'm assuming this is (semi)-official?

It's what I suspect Mallozzi meant when he revealed that one other character was originally planned to have been killed in the throne room carnage. It was very unlikely to be either our "numbers" or extra guard #6, it pretty much had to be either Nyx or Misaki. Given Misaki's sudden U-turn was the driving force of the scene, it was unlikely to be her.

the fun facts are behind the scenes stuff provided by the producers so I guess that would make it official. It's up on the episodes page at syfy.com (as well as videos etc that we poor souls in Canada can't watch).

 

[Wouter]

I'm puzzled. This started out as you just saying you believed she was dead, but now it seems like you've gone beyond that to arguing that she shouldn't be kept on the show. Am I misreading you?

Yes, I'm arguing that I don't think Nyx will survive. If she does come back, that's perfectly fine by me, though I would prefer to keep Kierken, if I had to choose.

The rest of the argument is mainly a response to specific points, like you pointing out her physical prowess is only a disadvantage compared to Two. I just think that the "only" is discounting the specific strengths of fighters like Ryo. So I responded.

Marc;
Thanks for the clarification.