Danube class

[Bill Morris]

This is just a preliminary study so far in preparation for an MSD for this class. I've found many Web pages devoted to the Danube class, and I'm picking up bits and pieces of info here and there. The cutaway from one of the technical manuals below I just saw for the first time. That's helpful.

But I have several questions. First, is that chimney thingy on top the warp core, or is it the horizontal thing, as labled in my mock-up schematic? And are those antimatter pods in the tech-manual cutaway top-aft? What about the pod? Does it have forward and aft torpedo launchers. Also, there are supposed to be two small escape pods, one in each nacelle strut, but maybe that's controversial, since some Web pages state that the Danube class doesn't have escape pods.

 

[JNG]

Torpedoes were never seen launched from the pod and it seems obvious there isn't lots of room in there. I believe full-size torpedoes are dropped from multimission modules. Possibly there are individual quad-load modules containing a couple of torpedoes, or a monoload one with maybe eight or something. I always assumed four max, considering the space available and the fact that the torpedoes would either have to be carried in lots of safety equipment if carried already loaded with reactants or would have some sort of reactant-injection setup in the module; I did this to be safe and to keep capabilities of runabouts realistic, but really, there might be room for eight.

The pod may or may not have something to do with guidance, but the DS9 TM clearly states that full-size torpedo launches from a runabout are of the fire-and-forget variety. In the only episode I can think of where full-size torpedoes are launched (dropped) from a runabout, which I believe is "The Search, Part II," the torpedoes appear to be originating from behind and below the crew compartment as seen from its forward window, which further supports DS9 TM's suggestion that the multirole modules are employed for this purpose.

The microtorpedo launchers are described in that same book as situated elsewhere (and magazines loaded through floor hatch) and the microtorpedoes are so tiny that this is much more reasonable than thinking the pod is needed for them.

Thus I think the "rollbar," which, as you know, was only ever intended to differentiate one runabout from another, is probably best defined as a sensor pod, or vaguely as an additional mounting for multimission equipment of various types. I like this idea as it increases the configurability and versatility and lets fans enjoy making up their own pods. Well, 90% of those will probably be "tactical strike cannon war pods" or some such silliness , but I bet a little dish-shaped one could be neat.

I personally thought it would be cool if the pod were an additional fuel intake with deuterium processing equipment, which would be great to have for longer missions.

For some photos of the pod in action (I don't believe it is ever shown actually doing anything except sporting a few little lights), I recommend checking this out: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/rollbar.htm

 

[Unicron]

I'm inclined to think the horizontal unit is the warp core, and that the other device helps route the warp plasma to the nacelles from the core. Think of it like the way the Galaxy's engine core looks, if you laid the thing on its "back."

 

[Bill Morris]

About the warp core, that's starting to make sense. I always had doubts about a big standup warp core in the middle of a hallway. Besides, warp-capable shuttles must have them horizontal beneath the floor.

About the pod, I always assumed it was science-oriented. Just yesterday, reading some of what's out there on the Web, was the first time I saw any claims about regular photon torpedos. I was able to find the little ports for the microtorp launchers about two years ago. There was a fairly clear view of them for a second on DS9, and I believe that label is correct in my WIP schematic.

About small escapes pod in the struts, I hadn't seen any mention of that until yesterday. Is there room for them?

 

[Timo]

I'd say the pillbox thingamabob in the middle of the spine is just as important a part of the warp core as the (supposed) horizontal tubes running along the spine. It's the actual reaction chamber, just as in the E-A, E-D, E-E and Defiant cores, just oriented a bit differently.

I agree the dorsal pod is unlikely to actually house torpedoes or otherweapons. However, the pod might contain targeting systems vital for the efficient use of torpedoes - it could be a shared resource for a flock of runabi, which would explain why one and only one runabout out of two or three is seen equipped with it for the combat missions of "Jem'Hadar" or "The Maquis II". If it weren't essential combat gear, surely O'Brien would have removed it so that it wouldn't hinder maneuvering.

I can see two logical places for microtorp launchers: either the stub wings on the sides of the cabin that supposedly sport phaser strips (but are virtually never used, the nacelle tip phasers being preferred instead), or the cabin underfloor greeblies. Since we never see any sort of projectiles fired from the stub wings, I tend to discount the DS9 TM idea that the launchers would be there, and instead favor the underfloor location. After all, we do see a projectile launched from there explicitly: the explosive charge in "Past Prologue"...

Does anybody remember the guy who did excellent treatises of all possible and impossible starship bridge interiors, and also a full spectrum of Danube class interior combinations? He managed to explain all the contradictory runabout cockpit sets, too, inventing things like a sliding computer pillar that blocks the centerline aft door. I can't find the site now...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Forbin]

What you're pointing to as "warp core" is a matter transfer conduit. The core itself is the large round thing at the nexus () of the four conduits.

As for the pod, I'm fairly sure it was a sensor pod, with no weapons capability.

 

[SicOne]

Regarding escape pods, I seem to recall reading (in "The Making Of Deep Space Nine", a trade-sized book I no longer have, though certainly one of you does and can double-check for us) that the runabout's cockpit is a self-contained pod that can separate from the remainder of the vessel, with limited maneuverability, in the event of a disaster striking the ship.

If memory serves, the three portions of a runabout were (1) the cockpit pod, (2) the propulsion module (rest of the ship minus payload modules), including the spine that connects with the cockpit pod above the rear of the pod, and (3) payload modules (either one large rectangular one, two thinner rectangular ones, or four even smaller ones arrayed in 2x2).

And, yes, the warp core was laid "on its back" atop the spine, with warp plasma conduits arcing down to the nacelles, and 2 anti-matter tanks aft of the warp core, also atop the spine.

Hope this helps.

 

[Bill Morris]

So the chimney thingy should be the warp core or reaction chamber, the part of the snake fore of that should be deuterium supply, and the part of the snake aft of it should be antideuterium supply, I suppose.

Ex Astris Scientia mentions weapons pods in two places. I don't know. I always assumed they were more for scientific usage.

Getting myself into even more trouble, Here's an outline for a type-8 schematic resized to 700 pixels in overall length and a drawing of a type-6 shuttle at 600 pixels, to compare them assuming 7 meters for the type 8 and 6 meters for the type 6. The blue line shows the floor line of the type 8 the same distance as it would be from the roof in the case of the type 6, just to verify placement of the floor in the schematic (even though it seems clear enough without doing this). The floor line of the type 6 is clear from on-screen evidence, at least. I don't know about the type 8. I assume they use the same shuttle prop for filming.

This is from my LCARS system, showing the microtorp tubes, but there is one scene from DS9 with a runabout passing overhead in which I think they can be seen, as well.

 

[Unicron]

What you're pointing to as "warp core" is a matter transfer conduit. The core itself is the large round thing at the nexus () of the four conduits.

I'm not sure I agree, Forbin. If I'm interpreting your statement correctly, that would mean the round thing is the top of the core itself, and that the core is therefore vertical. The problem with that, if the illustration from the DS9TM is to be considered reliable, is that the core would interfer with the door between the forward and aft sections; that would be true even if it were fairly short in height. That is one reason the horizontal core makes more sense to me, in relation to the rest of the design.

 

[Timo]

I think Forbin meant that yes, the pillbox is the core (if the definition of the core excludes the matter and antimatter feed systems), and yes, it's "vertical", but it's not very tall. In fact, it's only a foot or so tall...

I'd count the feed lines as "part of the core", too, though.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Unicron]

How large would it have to be to power a shuttle? We've never really seen an actual core on any of the shuttle designs, and there's no doubt some degree of miniaturization. I guess I'm just not sure how effectively that can be done and still yield the desired amount of speed and power. The pillbox seems a little small to me.

* shrugs *

(I realized I goofed and said horizontal instead of vertical. Oops... )

 

[SicOne]

IIRC, the "Making Of DS9" book had a few drawings showing the separate components of the runabout; the cockpit pod, the individual cargo modules (with a small corridor between them), and the spine/propulsion module.

I guess you could have a full-sized photorp launcher atop the "rollbar", with weapons magazine cargo modules. Ditto for a small AWACS-style pod, with one of the cargo modules dedicated to a combat information center, to scout ahead of the giant fleets we saw during DS9's Dominion War episodes.

 

[Timo]

How large would it have to be to power a shuttle?

Well, until VOY, we didn't even have visual or dialogue confirmation that a standard shuttle could go to warp at all. (However, VOY confirmed this not just for its own new shuttles but also for the old Type 6 design, suggesting any old bucket could have had the capacity.)

And in DS9 "The Sound of Her Voice", much is made of the fact that the Defiant cannot enter the planet of the week specifically because of her warp core, whereas a shuttle can do it. Does this mean that shuttles don't have components called "warp cores" (but can still go to warp by other means)? Does this mean the shuttle Chaffee was special, even unique? Or does it simply mean that it's simple to rip out the core of a shuttle whereas it would be nigh-impossible to rip out the core of the mothership?

I'd say we have sufficient evidence to argue that a flat core that fits under the floor of a Type 6 is plenty for going to warp 2 or so. The somewhat bulkier Type 7 might have a larger core in the aft compartments - her top speed is unknown. The unseen Type 9 might be a relatively large craft, perhaps as depicted in the TNG Tech Manual, so her established speed of warp 4 (VOY "Resolutions") would be due to a larger, runabout-style core (either underfloor or in the spine of the TNG TM design).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jimmy_C]

Based on the episode of TNG with the Runabout, I thought each engine housed its own warp core. Each nacelle had an independent fuel supply, which had run out in one nacelle. So I figured each had its own M/AM reactor, much like fan designs for the original Enterprise NCC-1701.

 

[Timo]

Right: "Timescape" claims that one nacelle can run on its own for 47 days, resulting in nothing worse than fuel exhaustion. Although this might be an oversimplification, really. Perhaps the nacelle was getting fuel for 47 days but was not doing anything propulsive at the time because the fuel wasn't being energized by the warp core? The warp power system might still be fully centralized, with just one core, but an individual nacelle could drain fuel when severed from the rest of the ship by a time bubble.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bill Morris]

For the shuttles, I'm figuring on a similar setup to that with the Danube class. Here I've got the reaction chamber aft under the floor, with matter and antimatter tubes horizontal (not drawn here yet) and transverse plasma feed to the nacelles. And we already know where the impulse engines go.

 

[Reverend]

I'm fairly certain there was a TNG episode that had a diagram of the Type-6's engine layout (I think it was the one with the gender neutral race) and if memory serves the warp core ran under the floor, between the nacelles and was essentially a flattened version of what we see in the Danube.

As for the Danube, I'd be inclined to use the dorsal view for an MSD, given the ship's small size and general layout.

 

[Unicron]

Well, until VOY, we didn't even have visual or dialogue confirmation that a standard shuttle could go to warp at all. (However, VOY confirmed this not just for its own new shuttles but also for the old Type 6 design, suggesting any old bucket could have had the capacity.)

True, but we saw the crew on TNG use shuttles regularly for shore leave, away missions, and so forth. It seems extremely unlikely that shuttles like the T6 therefore didn't have some warp capacity, and the TNG TM certainly states that all of the shuttle types typical aboard a Galaxy (and presumably many other classes) have warp drive. And wasn't Worf's T6 said to have caused the dimensional breach in "Parallels" by using its warp system? I don't recall exactly.

I hear what you're saying, Timo. I just try to avoid relying only on a specific segment of dialogue when there is evidence available.

 

[Bill Morris]

This is for the type 6. Maybe it's the one you're thinking of, Reverend. At least it seems similar to what I showed above with the type 8 and what we've pretty much collectively come up with on this point so far in the course of this thread.

 

[Unicron]

Checked YouTube. Data does describe the 6 having warp engines in "Parallels," which means VOY is not the earliest description of shuttles having warp. There may be other instances on TNG, but that's the closest one I could remember.