Daedalus Class Ships (Minor Spoiler?)

[dispatcher812]

I am halfway through Kobayashi Maru, and so far not bad.

It mentions two Daedalus class ships being sent to assist Columbia in repairs. being the Visualization type person I am I had to search for a picture of one of these ships to I could see it when I read about it. I found two excellent websites when it coems to ship classes and names. The first is very well done but alot is conjecture and from the creators own imagination. This site lists the Daedalus class first launched in 2161. The second is, I believe, a canon site, listing only KNOWN ships. It does not give any dates for this class. My question is that the book takes place in 2155. What is the true launch date for this class?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

What is the true launch date for this class?

It's never been revealed officially. We have no idea when it was launched.

 

[Christopher]

What is the true launch date for this class?

There is none, since it's all made up. As for the fictional launch date for the Daedalus class, there is no consensus and no canonical information. All we know from canon is that the class was active roughly two centuries before TNG: "Power Play."

 

[LutherSloan]

I KNEW I remembered mention of the 'Daedalus' class in KM. There was another thread related to this recently.

 

[Timo]

While the aired part of the Star Trek universe gives us no information or even hints at the launch date of the Daedalus class, at least one novel claims that the class was being designed (and supposedly was soon to be launched) in 2161: Michael Jay Friedman's Starfleet: Year One describes this design process.

Then again, numerous other novels written after that book have made reference to Daedalus class ships operating before the 2150s. Kobayashi Maru is just one of those.

If you want to count the reference books or "fictional nonfiction" stuff like Tech Manuals, the old Spaceflight Chronology describes one Horizon class that for all practical purposes matches the role of the Daedalus (i.e. the class ship was indicated to be the one mentioned in TOS "A Piece of the Action", whereas other reference works speculate this ship was a Daedalus). The ship from Spaceflight Chronology is said to have been launched in 2093, but other dates in that book would suggest that its 2093 in fact corresponds to what modern chronologists would think of as the 2130s or 2140s.

Another set of references, a series of comparison charts and blueprints and booklets by aridas sofia, Todd Guenther et al., maintains that there was a Horizon class somewhat later on, with a derived Archon class, and perhaps suggests that said Horizon and Archon were the ships from TOS "A Piece of the Action" and "Return of the Archons", respectively.

The Spaceflight Chronology ship is a boxy thing (it's early art by Rick Sternbach who later became quite a central figure in Trek artistry), while the sofia/Guenther ship consists of a big sphere attached to a cylinder, imitating an early sketch by TOS designer Matt Jeffries. Later on, modelmaker Greg Jein did his own variant on that sphere-cylinder ship, and Mike and Denise Okuda then used it in their Star Trek Chronology to depict the Daedalus class; they also started the line of speculation where all those old ships mentioned in TOS are of Daedalus class. The Jein model was sometimes seen on Commander Sisko's table in DS9, making it "canonical" after a fashion, but the model's identity as a "Daedalus class ship" was never evident from these brief glimpses.

From this unholy mix, we can basically choose what we like and ditch the rest. Me, I like to take the Spaceflight Chronology history and apply it on Greg Jein's model the way the Okudas wanted, using the Daedalus name, while postulating that the Horizon class ships of aridas/Todd were named in honor of famous earlier Daedalus vessels and were not in fact the ships mentioned in TOS...

Your lightyearage may vary considerably, obviously!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

I think they were using the Daedalus-class as a supply ship in Kobayashi Maru as a nod to the similar-looking Next Gen medical ship in “All Good Things…”

The PC game Star Trek Legacy had Daedalus-class ships used to ferry supplies during the Romulan War. Maybe they took their cue from that.

You know how in stuff like the old Star Trek Encyclopaedia the Daedalus-class was meant to be the first Earth starship type? And then Enterprise came along with its NX-01 design? I always wondered if the ship from the novels Daedalus and Daedalus’ Children was meant to be the prototype of the Daedalus class, and that when it blew up (that’s not a spoiler, it’s on the blurb) Starfleet went with a different design for their next attempt at a starship, and ended up with the Enterprise.
I guess that might tie in with what Rick Berman said about Enterprise being set in a changed/alternate timeline (after the events of First Contact changed things). Or maybe I’m over-thinking things a bit…

But what about the USS Daedalus from Starfleet: Year One? That launched in 2161 and contradicts everything (except the Star Trek Encyclopaedia).

 

[Christopher]

I guess that might tie in with what Rick Berman said about Enterprise being set in a changed/alternate timeline (after the events of First Contact changed things).

When did he ever say that? The intent of ENT was always that it would be the same timeline that led to TOS, TNG, DS9, and VGR.

But what about the USS Daedalus from Starfleet: Year One? That launched in 2161 and contradicts everything (except the Star Trek Encyclopaedia).

What of it? Lots of books over the decades have been contradicted by later information. There's no requirement to force all books to fit into a single continuity. S:YO is simply an alternate conjecture of how the 22nd century might have unfolded.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I can't remember where I read it. I think it might have been more to do with the fuss over 'regeneration' then the entire show, or about the Suliban getting cloaking technology from the future (when cloaking devices were a terrifying new technology ion TOS 'Balence of Terror' 100 years later!). Although I really liked Enterprise (from the third season on, and aside from that rubbish finale) IMO it really doesn't quite fit with TOS (not that i'm saying there's anything wrong with that).
It was said on TV at the start of the third season of Enterprise that the future had been altered by the Xindi attack on Earth.

I have no problem at all with SF:YO contradicting anything. I was just pointing out that it's version of the Daedalus is incompatible with the earlier one in Kobayashi Maru.

 

[Christopher]

I can't remember where I read it. I think it might have been more to do with the fuss over 'regeneration' then the entire show, or about the Suliban getting cloaking technology from the future (when cloaking devices were a terrifying new technology ion TOS 'Balence of Terror' 100 years later!). Although I really liked Enterprise (from the third season on, and aside from that rubbish finale) IMO it really doesn't quite fit with TOS (not that i'm saying there's anything wrong with that).

No two Trek series really quite fit together with each other, and some Trek series don't even quite fit with themselves. Yet that doesn't mean they're supposed to be in alternate timelines -- it just means that any large fictional canon, especially one created by multiple people over decades, is going to contain inconsistencies. The intent was that ENT represented the history of the ST universe we knew, not an alternate track. Any inconsistencies were merely differences of interpretation, just like the differences of interpretation between TOS & TWOK, between early TNG and later TNG, between TNG & DS9, etc.

It was said on TV at the start of the third season of Enterprise that the future had been altered by the Xindi attack on Earth.

Yes, but that doesn't mean it was altered away from the timeline of TOS. It could've been altered to the OS timeline from something different.

If ENT had been intended to be a separate timeline from the previous series, then S4 wouldn't have gone to such lengths to tie it together with TOS continuity.

 

[ChristopherPike]

If ENT had been intended to be a separate timeline from the previous series, then S4 wouldn't have gone to such lengths to tie it together with TOS continuity.

Thank you. Thank you. With one film fast becoming a pseudo-prequel, setting up an AU, it's nice to be reminded that Enterprise did in fact, never resort to such extremes to explain discontinuities. The good guys in the so-called Temporal Cold War were all about preserving the timeline, not laying waste to it. Although Daniels and his "watchdog buddies" seem to be sitting Nero's stampede across the 23rd Century out!

 

[Timo]

I always wondered if the ship from the novels Daedalus and Daedalus’ Children was meant to be the prototype of the Daedalus class, and that when it blew up, Starfleet went with a different design for their next attempt at a starship, and ended up with the Enterprise.

In the meantime, they might have put the Daedalus design on ice, only to revive it in 2161 for a new mission of scientific survey - thus justifying both the Stern and Friedman novels.

Or they might have had some Daedalus hulls completed, but after the failed test flight they'd rip the CID drives out of those and use them for "conventional" warp travel. Perhaps they'd call them Daedalus class... Or perhaps, for reasons of classic naval superstition, they'd decide to call them after the second ship completed, that is, Horizon class! A couple of more books integrated.

After the class finally proved itself thanks to the Friedman book makeover, the name Daedalus would be rehabilitated for use in all future references...

There's no requirement to force all books to fit into a single continuity.

There isn't? Damn. Another two minutes wasted.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[foravalon]

There's no requirement to force all books to fit into a single continuity.

There isn't? Damn. Another two minutes wasted.

Timo Saloniemi

Those minutes are never wasted Timo, despite protestations to the contrary, some people build their entire literary careers on connecting dots and presenting theories for filling in the blanks in just such a way.

 

[JB2005]

Perhaps they'd call them Daedalus class... Or perhaps, for reasons of classic naval superstition, they'd decide to call them after the second ship completed, that is, Horizon class! A couple of more books integrated.

Or maybe Horizon Class and Daedelus Class used the same basic space-frame but were intended for different roles and outfitted differently enough to justify calling them different classes...

 

[Timo]

...Who knows, perhaps Daedalus class has a different primary hull - a large saucer capable of housing the canonically established 200+ crew - but is otherwise identical to Greg Jein's tabletop model of the Horizon which represents the Horizon class configuration?

For the holistic approach, I'd still prefer to treat the Daedalus as looking exactly like Jein's model, because that's what most of the modern novelists assume when inserting a Daedalus into their stories. And the ship admittedly could pack 200+ people even if just over 100 meters long; it would just be in discomfort unfamiliar from the TOS or TNG eras, or from ENT.

For a more divided approach, it's always possible that the pre-ENT and during-ENT ships of Daedalus class are in no way related to the later Starfleet vessels of Daedalus class. Even though the United Earth Starfleet and the later UFP Starfleet are closely related organizations, they are still separate organizations. And even within the Royal Navy, there have been many, many ship classes that share a name, including very confusing things such as the completely dissimilar King George V class battleships from WWI and WWII, respectively.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

I’m reading Last Full Measure, and they just said that Lt. D.O. served aboard the Daedalus-class ships Essex and Archon before joining the Enterprise.

Now that I think about it (with the Ent novels in order in my brain) I think Martin and Mangles also assumed the Daedalus Daedalus was the prototype for the class, and thus put the references in accordingly.

There are a few things that don’t quite ring true to me though:

Daedalus-class ships have numbers in the hundreds. The Enterprise is numbered 01, and it’s said repeatedly that it’s the first deep space exploration ship launched from Earth. Why would ships that pre-date it have higher numbers? The shame I feel from being slightly annoyed by the number on the front of a fictitious spaceship is unbelievable.

From the pictures I’ve seen I’d say the Encyclopaedia has scaled down the ship too far for a crew of 200. I reckon it’s meant to be the same length as the 1701 Enterprise (especially since the design is based on an old 1701 design sketch!).

The Daedalus has the wrong look (by that I mean hull details, colour and decals) for its era – its 60’s vibe fits well with the old TV series but is wrong for Enterprise. Could you picture a re-imagined version with NX01/Kelvin styling? That would be cool.

The Ency says the Daedalus-class was retired in the 2190’s. Then why would the NX01 that came after it be retired in 2161?

Long story short for a Daedalus in the 2150’s: Number too high, design too 60’s, life too long, book says too small. Not that any of that matters ;-)

 

[Timo]

Daedalus-class ships have numbers in the hundreds. The Enterprise is numbered 01, and it’s said repeatedly that it’s the first deep space exploration ship launched from Earth. Why would ships that pre-date it have higher numbers?

Do the Daedalus ships have numbers before they enter UFP Starfleet service? That is, do the ENT novels mention numbers?

If the ships only get their NCC numbers after the Romulan War, it makes perfect sense that they'd become something like NCC-160 through NCC-190, while the Enterprise might become, say, NCC-200 for a brief while before being retired... Surely the new owner would wish to renumber the ships it has obtained - provided that the old owner ever numbered them at all, of course. We are not aware of any pennant numbers on ENT-era ships other than the NX-01 and her sisters, now are we?

The Ency says the Daedalus-class was retired in the 2190’s. Then why would the NX01 that came after it be retired in 2161?

Why not? If the former is a no-frills workhorse and the latter a hot Arabian thoroughbred, then it's only natural that the former outlives the latter - the way the B-52 bomber has vastly outlived high-performing "successors" such as B-58.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[EmperorKalan]

If you want to count the reference books or "fictional nonfiction" stuff like Tech Manuals, the old Spaceflight Chronology describes one Horizon class that for all practical purposes matches the role of the Daedalus (i.e. the class ship was indicated to be the one mentioned in TOS "A Piece of the Action", whereas other reference works speculate this ship was a Daedalus). The ship from Spaceflight Chronology is said to have been launched in 2093, but other dates in that book would suggest that its 2093 in fact corresponds to what modern chronologists would think of as the 2130s or 2140s.

That Horizon was supposed to be the Federation's first true joint design (as opposed to ships the founding members had designed for their own individual space fleets), but in the SFC the Federation was founded in 2087 and was not the product of the Romulan War (which was 2106 to 2109 by SFC dates, not counting several years of anonymous "pirate" attacks previously). If you adapt the service dates using the Romulan War as your main common reference, you can argue for a launch date in the 2140s. But if you look at the role it's credited as having, you can argue for something later (at least post-NX).
http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt204/emperorkalan/SFC/21stcentury14.jpg

A similar situation happens with the Daedelus. The 2161 launch date springs from an assumption somewhere that it was a Federation design, but others have had different interpretations.

The Spaceflight Chronology ship is a boxy thing (it's early art by Rick Sternbach who later became quite a central figure in Trek artistry),

See link above. While SFC's chronology has been rendered obsolete, it'd be nice if some of the designs therein managed to be adapted into the current chronology. (The Meissier-class looks like it could fit into Andorian design philosophy, for instance.)
http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt204/emperorkalan/SFC/21stcentury12.jpg

 

[Timo]

That Horizon was supposed to be the Federation's first true joint design (as opposed to ships the founding members had designed for their own individual space fleets), but in the SFC the Federation was founded in 2087 and was not the product of the Romulan War (which was 2106 to 2109 by SFC dates, not counting several years of anonymous "pirate" attacks previously).

Quite so. OTOH, just as an aside, one might interpret the SFC dates so that Starfleet was indeed founded in 2087, even by Okudaic dating - that is, the United Earth Starfleet, Archer's organization, was.

Granted that there might be a reason to think that UESF didn't exist yet until the 2130s, but there are other ways to interpret Archer's line about considering joining the ECS "a few years before Starfleet was chartered". Say, he could have done his considering at the impressionable age of six or so. Or he could have been completely bullshitting the young Travis who no doubt believed Archer was at least ninety years old.

Archer's UESF could well have built a joint starship; they weren't xenophobic as such, they were merely very anti-Vulcan. Indeed, enlisting the help of another alien species in defeating the Vulcan obstructionism would sound exactly like a thing that UESF would choose to do. And this other species would probably only help build a crappy warp 3.25 crate like the Horizon, rather than a ship capable of competing with the species' own starships.

(The Meissier-class looks like it could fit into Andorian design philosophy, for instance.)

I might prefer to drop the Messier and the Bonaventure into the same slot as Greg Jein's SS Valiant. They all have this thing going where there's a giant centerline tank flanked by two slightly slimmer cylinders, and then big reaction engines astern and a bow compartment for payload. Perhaps they are all conversions of old rocketships, with the Messier and the Bonaventure simply inserting warp coils in the former outboard tanks?

It would only be after Messier that UESF or its Terran predecessor would move towards custom-built warp vessels such as the Intrepid. And parallel to this effort would run a tradition of lifting body vessels for planetary work, eventually equipped with warp nacelles...

Timo Saloniemi